regibassman57 said:

Ivar,
You presented this as a question: "One in the same or agree in one?"
I've proven both...
The Son comes from the Bosom of the Father. And the Spirit is the breath of God.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

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@regibassman57

Fair enough not something i have not already posted about. And if you believe you have proven that is fair enough.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

Bibleguy,
Sound good, but lets stay focused on simplicity as we disect these verses. You can put a lot of information out there and I've been guilty also; so lets keep it simple and not overload one another with too much information. If we keep it elementary, fine with me. I think your saying so much and I am also, but we're passing one another without connecting.

bibleguy said:

Hi! I'm thinking something must be a bit incorrect here.....given that Jesus clearly expected us to obey even the smallest of Torah commands (Mt. 5:19), and teach others to likewise obey them, so as to be great in the forthcoming kingdom....

I'd be happy to chat about this if you like.

blessings....

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@bibleguy
true but many of the laws are in actuality for breaking laws. if you treat people as you would want people to treat you; "you don't bear false witness, murder, etc". You actually use the law lawfully which is good and you are in essence keeping like 20 laws just by keeping one of them. The Father is good and doing good with sincere intentions "heart fully turned to God,etc" supersedes laws. That is why those " mainly Gentiles" who by nature do the things contained in the law are a law to themselves.

Cain was given one law. that encompasses all.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

-------------------

bibleguy said:

Hi! I'm thinking something must be a bit incorrect here.....given that Jesus clearly expected us to obey even the smallest of Torah commands (Mt. 5:19), and teach others to likewise obey them, so as to be great in the forthcoming kingdom....

I'd be happy to chat about this if you like.

blessings....

Click to expand...

That's ok. For myself, I'm thankful that Christ has saved me from the penalty of not being able to keep the law and has fulfilled it for me in my place (since I never could). If you prefer to live under the law (the whole law, sacrifices and all) and try to keep it yourself, that's certainly your choice. Galatians 5:4 (Actually, Galatians is a great book to read as it relates to this subject and speaks a lot about the dangers of trying to mix the two covenants.)

We disagree about the verse you quoted and probably the one I just referenced and most likely everything about this subject and I do not believe either one of us will move from our position. And I'm OK with that. Take care -

Gigiloveslife said:

Ephesians 2:15
Colossians 2:14

Bob George Classic Christianity - great book that God used to help me understand that we are dead to the law. The law's purpose is to drive us to failure and it serves its purpose when it does that and drives us to Christ. Once we are in Christ, we are dead to the law. Once the new Law (the Law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ) is written on our hearts, we are new creations - we will no longer be content to sin and chase after the flesh for very long for the life of Christ in us. We were crucified with Christ and we were buried with Him and raised to new life in Him -- these things are facts whether we feel them or not. We are now united with Christ and His life is our life now.

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Hello Gigi, please don't feel the need to respond.

But, for the sake of leaving a record on this thread, I'd like to address the points you posted to the thread here.

Col. 2:14 nails the debt (Gr. "cheirographon") to the cross, not the Torah. Thus, Col. 2:14 is not evidence that we Christians should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

Eph. 2:15 abolishes dogma (Gr. "dogma") which separates Gentiles from God, from hope, and from the covenants (Eph. 2:12). Torah is not dogma. There is no Torah which separates Gentiles from God, from hope, and from the covenants. Thus, Eph. 2:15 is not evidence that we Christians should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

And, Torah was taught by Jesus (Mt. 4:4; 5:19; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28), and with great warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42), and these Torah-teachings apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19-20).

Paul, Peter, James, John, Stephen, etc., all taught and obeyed Torah as well.

The Psalms, Proverbs, Prophets, Pentateuch, Hebrews, and even Revelation, all jointly affirm that we should obey Torah.

Sure, we are dead to the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2), but that's no excuse to ignore the Torah of righteousness (Dt. 6:25) and life (Dt. 30:14-20).

And shall we now be free to disobey Torah? Of course not. Paul says that Torah-disobedience is being in the "flesh" (Rom. 8:7)...that's bad.

In fact, Paul applies the Torah-obedient passage (Dt. 30) directly to YOU in Rom. 10:8.

TORAH is to be written upon your heart (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16) so that you will obey it (Dt. 30:14 cited in Rom. 10:8), not abolished or terminated or canceled or rendered inapplicable or inoperative.

Let's get back to the Bible....

blessings....

bibleguy said:

Hello Gigi, please don't feel the need to respond.

But, for the sake of leaving a record on this thread, I'd like to address the points you posted to the thread here.

Col. 2:14 nails the debt (Gr. "cheirographon") to the cross, not the Torah. Thus, Col. 2:14 is not evidence that we Christians should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

Eph. 2:15 abolishes dogma (Gr. "dogma") which separates Gentiles from God, from hope, and from the covenants (Eph. 2:12). Torah is not dogma. There is no Torah which separates Gentiles from God, from hope, and from the covenants. Thus, Eph. 2:15 is not evidence that we Christians should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

And, Torah was taught by Jesus (Mt. 4:4; 5:19; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28), and with great warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42), and these Torah-teachings apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19-20).

Paul, Peter, James, John, Stephen, etc., all taught and obeyed Torah as well.

The Psalms, Proverbs, Prophets, Pentateuch, Hebrews, and even Revelation, all jointly affirm that we should obey Torah.

Sure, we are dead to the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2), but that's no excuse to ignore the Torah of righteousness (Dt. 6:25) and life (Dt. 30:14-20).

And shall we now be free to disobey Torah? Of course not. Paul says that Torah-disobedience is being in the "flesh" (Rom. 8:7)...that's bad.

In fact, Paul applies the Torah-obedient passage (Dt. 30) directly to YOU in Rom. 10:8.

TORAH is to be written upon your heart (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16) so that you will obey it (Dt. 30:14 cited in Rom. 10:8), not abolished or terminated or canceled or rendered inapplicable or inoperative.

Let's get back to the Bible....

blessings....

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I very strongly disagree 100% with you.

bibleguy said:

Hello Gigi, please don't feel the need to respond.

But, for the sake of leaving a record on this thread, I'd like to address the points you posted to the thread here.

Col. 2:14 nails the debt (Gr. "cheirographon") to the cross, not the Torah. Thus, Col. 2:14 is not evidence that we Christians should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

Eph. 2:15 abolishes dogma (Gr. "dogma") which separates Gentiles from God, from hope, and from the covenants (Eph. 2:12). Torah is not dogma. There is no Torah which separates Gentiles from God, from hope, and from the covenants. Thus, Eph. 2:15 is not evidence that we Christians should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

And, Torah was taught by Jesus (Mt. 4:4; 5:19; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28), and with great warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42), and these Torah-teachings apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19-20).

Paul, Peter, James, John, Stephen, etc., all taught and obeyed Torah as well.

The Psalms, Proverbs, Prophets, Pentateuch, Hebrews, and even Revelation, all jointly affirm that we should obey Torah.

Sure, we are dead to the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2), but that's no excuse to ignore the Torah of righteousness (Dt. 6:25) and life (Dt. 30:14-20).

And shall we now be free to disobey Torah? Of course not. Paul says that Torah-disobedience is being in the "flesh" (Rom. 8:7)...that's bad.

In fact, Paul applies the Torah-obedient passage (Dt. 30) directly to YOU in Rom. 10:8.

TORAH is to be written upon your heart (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16) so that you will obey it (Dt. 30:14 cited in Rom. 10:8), not abolished or terminated or canceled or rendered inapplicable or inoperative.

Let's get back to the Bible....

blessings....

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Just out of extreme curiosity, how many animal sacrifices, stonings and cleansing rituals have you been a part of the last few months (or year...whatever time period)? I'm assuming someone who is intent on following the Torah will not let any opposition to God's laws and the fulfilling of them in this culture and time stand in their way to do so.

Bibleguy,
I do not question the keeping of the Ten Commandments..
What Sacrificial laws are you saying believers are to keep?
What Ceremonial Laws are you saying believers are to keep?
What Judicial Laws are you saying believers are to keep?
Has any Torah Laws been remmited?
Do you justify yourself by the Law of Moses?

@bibleguy,

The second covenant is not like the first covenant. What is the difference? (Heb. 8:9)

God said He has made the first covenant old. In what sense is the first covenant made old and decays? (Heb 8:13)

The first covenant was a sin covenant, but the second covenant God will not remember sins. Under the first covenant God did not remember Israel’s sin after the atonement for sins; so what does God mean he will not remember their sins? (Heb 8:12).

God said, He will take away the first covenant and establish the second. What changes will take place that makes the second difference? (Hebrews 10:9)

• @bibleguy
• Circumcision is done away with under the New Covenant: (1Cor. 7:18, 19; Rom. 2:28, 29; Gal. 5:2-6; 6:15)
• 
  
• Jesus Christ ended circumcision as a law of requirement when He circumcised all believers from sin by His circumcision in the flesh. (Col. 2:11)
• 
  
• Eating certain foods defiled a man under the Old Covenant, but not under the New, food do not defile a man: (Matthew 15:11; Mar. 7:15)
• 
  
• Sacrifice and offering laws are done away with in Christ: (Hebrew 10:5-8, 18) 10:5-8

Certain Laws were transferable from one covenant to another before Christ.

Circumcision Laws: From Abraham’s covenant to the Mosaic Laws. (Gen. 17:9-14) (Exo. 12:48; Lev. 12:3; Jos 5:2).

Ceremonial Laws: Different offerings transferred to the Mosaic Laws from Abraham. Drink offerings (Gen. 35:14; 46:1)

Sacrificial Laws: Abraham offered animal sacrifices which transferred to the Mosaic Laws. (Gen. 15:9, 10; 22:13)

These have not transfered to the New Covenant; have they?

Gigiloveslife said:

Just out of extreme curiosity, how many animal sacrifices, stonings and cleansing rituals have you been a part of the last few months (or year...whatever time period)? I'm assuming someone who is intent on following the Torah will not let any opposition to God's laws and the fulfilling of them in this culture and time stand in their way to do so.

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Dear Gigiloveslife, thanks for asking!

Torah, itself, prophesies of a time when Torah will NOT be 100% observable (Dt. 29:24-28).

We are still in that time of diaspora. Thus, Torah is not presently 100% observable.

So, sacrificial/ceremonial/Levitical Torah is presently unobservable (even though the Prophets guarantee its 100% future restoration, Dt. 30:1-8; Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Is. 66; Mal. 3).

And, most of us Israelites are still scattered throughout the world, and we live in countries where stoning laws are not presently properly observable either.

Dt. 30:1-8, however, guarantees that we will again return to the promised land to again obey 100% of all Torah commands.

But TORAH (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16) passes directly into the New Covenant in which we PRESENTLY participate!

So what shall we do PRESENTLY, in this state of diaspora?

Ignore ALL Torah? Ignore SOME Torah? Obey as much as is presently possible?

CONCLUSION: To ignore any Torah is to ignore a central element of the New Covenant itself (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16).

Thus, we should grow in faithful obedience to as much Torah as is presently possible during this diaspora, especially since Torah is taught, observed, and required in the Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Gospels, Epistles, Hebrews, and even Revelation, as modeled and taught by Jesus and the Apostles (Paul, Peter, James, John, Stephen, etc.)

After all, why would you want to oppose presently observable Torah, given that Jesus said this will render you LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom? (Mt. 5:19) Or even worse (Mt. 7:21-23), or even WORSE (Mt. 13:41-42)...

Let's get back to truly authentic Biblical faith, as taught and required in the Bible.

After all, the antichrist wants lawlessness (2 Th. 2:3), and Paul said Torah-disobedience is of the flesh (Rom. 8:7).

Why would you want the same thing (i.e., Torah-lessness) which the antichrist wants?

Ok.....Hope that helps satisfy some of your curiosity!

Have a blessed weekend.....

bibleguy said:

Ok.....Hope that helps satisfy some of your curiosity!

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Well, it does to the extent that you have confirmed that you really do believe believers are completely still under the Law.

Galatians 5

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of not value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 'A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.' I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition; dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

Gigiloveslife said:

Well, it does to the extent that you have confirmed that you really do believe believers are completely still under the Law.

Galatians 5

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of not value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 'A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.' I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition; dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

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And WHERE does this passage state that Christians should NOT grow in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER being saved by grace through faith? NOWHERE!!

And, that SAME PAUL applied Dt. 30;14 to YOU (Rom. 10:8). Thus, you should obey Torah from the heart in faith, because that is the very word of faith which Paul preached.
That SAME PAUL said you should not be in the flesh (which disobeys Torah, Rom. 8:7). So STOP disobeying Torah!
That SAME PAUL said you should not sin (Rom. 6:15), which means NOT disobey Torah (Rom. 3:20; 7:7), which means OBEY Torah. So obey Torah!
That SAME PAUL said ALL Scripture (thus including Torah!) should rebuke and correct and train your behavior.
That SAME PAUL said those who obey the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13).
That SAME PAUL affirmed the legitimacy of judgments issued by Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom. 2:27).
That SAME PAUL condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he walked "orderly according to the law" (Ac. 21).
That SAME PAUL said he believes (thus obeys) everything in Torah (Ac. 24:14). You should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
That SAME PAUL said he believes (thus obeys) the Prophets (who, of course, affirm Torah, Ac. 24:14). You should imitate Paul's Torah-obedience (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
That SAME PAUL affirms the Psalms (which affirms Torah), Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16. Yet you oppose the Torah-obedient Psalms which Paul affirms?
That SAME PAUL quotes the Proverbs as Scripture, but the Proverbs affirm Torah. Yet you oppose Torah.

And, the passage you quoted does not contradict my position.

I never said we are justified by law APART from faith.
I never said we are trying to be justified by law APART from the grace of Christ.
I never said adult-male-Gentile-converts should be circumcised (after all, Torah does not even require this!)

This very passage says we should serve HUMBLY. But, humble (Heb. "anav") people obey Torah (Nu. 12:3; Ps. 25:9; Zep. 2:3).
This very passage says we should LOVE. But love (Dt. 6:4-5) requires obedience to all Torah (Dt. 6:25).
This very passage says we should FULFILL (not CONTRADICT!) the Torah as we love one another. So stop contradicting Torah.
This very passage says we should be of the SPIRIT, not FLESH. But the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom. 8:7). Thus, we should OBEY Torah.
This very passage says we should bear the fruit of FAITHFULNESS (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 5:22-23), which Jesus says comes straight from Torah (Mt. 23:23) and should be OBEYED.
This very passage says we should live by the SPIRIT. The Spirit testifies that Torah should be in our hearts (Heb. 10:15-16), not opposed or terminated or ignored or abolished.

Paul agrees that we should live by "pistis", citing "emunah" (in Hab. 2:4). What is this way of "emunah"? TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138).

CONCLUSION:

1. The passage you cited is CONSISTENT with the claim that Christians should grow in faithful obedience to Torah.
2. The passage you cited is written by Paul, who elsewhere repeatedly confirms that Christians should grow in faithful obedience to Torah.
3. The passage you cited does not (in any way) contradict the Biblical Torah-obedient position I've set before you.
4. The passage you cited SUPPORTS (in many ways) the claim that Christians should obey Torah, as I've shown.
5. You have not given us any reason to suppose that the passage you cited contradicts my position.

Hope to hear from you!

@All Viewers

This post is about 1John 1:

Who was John speaking to? (Gal. 2:7-9)

Verse 1: We know John was talking about Jesus Christ. John wrote the book of the Gospel of John.

Verse 2: The Jews (John’s Brethren) those who he was talking to did not know or have the understanding of Jesus Christ; this is why John was bearing witness (1Joh. 1:1) or proclaiming unto them Jesus Christ (John 20:19-23).

Verse 3: Again John was declaring and announcing to these Jews knowledge of Jesus Christ, that they may have “fellowship” with Him as well as God His Father. If a man does not have fellowship with the Son, they do not have fellowship with the Father (Joh. 14:6; 1Jo. 1:3; 2:22-24; 2Jo. 1:9).

Verse 4: John realizes his brethrens need the joy of The Lord; without Christ they have no joy (we are not talking about the joy of the world) (Joh. 16:20, 21; 17:13).

Verse 5: John begins to thoroughly explain to these Jews what the message is concerning this God and His Son Jesus whom they have not known. John teaches them that God is light and there is no darkness (sin) in Him at all. This is the second time John expresses declaring something unto these Jews (because they didn’t know). This was done because these listeners are not saved. This is John’s witness to get them born again.

Verse 6: John explains a man cannot say they have fellowship with God or His son and walk in darkness (sin); they’re lying; (John just said “verse 5,” there is no darkness (sin) in God at all); they are not doing or telling the truth.

Verse 7: John starts to reveal to these Jews what they need to do in order to have fellowship with God and His Son. If they walk in the light of Jesus Christ is light, they can have fellowship with God, His Son and with John (Joh. 8:12; 12:46). This is how their joy can be full; and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of “all” their sins. A man cannot be in the body of Christ with sins (there is no sins in Jesus); this is why Jesus will cleanse a man first before placing them in His body.

Verse 8: If a man says they have no sin they’re deceiving themselves. A believer can say they have no sin without deceiving themselves. Jesus just told these Jews, He will cleanse them of “all” their sins. Once these Jews are cleansed they “can say” they have no sin. An unbeliever can never say they have no sin and they will be deceiving themselves because have not been cleansed (Heb. 10:11, 12, 14, 17, 18). Verse 7 does not specify a time of how long the cleansing agent last, but Hebrews 10 does.

Verse 9: John explains to these Jews the cleansing process whereby they can say, they have no sin. If they confess their sins God is faithful and just to forgive them of "all" their sins and cleanse them of "all" unrighteousness (1Jo. 1:7; Rom. 10:9, 10)

Verse 10: If a person says they have “not sinned,” (past tense for believer, present tense for unbelievers) they make God a liar and His word is not in them (Rom. 3:4; 3:23).

regibassman57 said:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

My Reference is Wikipedia for the term "Mediation":
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties with concrete effects. Typically, a third party, the mediator assists the parties to negotiate a settlement.

What is the purpose of Jesus as the Mediator?

Jesus came to mediate sin between the time of Adam and the Cross. This means Jesus is only mediating sins that were under the “first covenant;” “not the second.” Jesus was mediating man's reconciliation back unto God through the atonement for sins. Without the atonement, reconciliation is not possible. Jesus had to become the way, the truth and the life, through the cross, in order for this mediation to be successful (John 14:6).

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May I suggest you reconsider the possibility that you are making assumptions by limiting His words to the Old Covenant?

Hebrews 9:15

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...Jesus is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions "that were under the first testament," they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

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I believe Paul was addressing Christian Jews in the epistle of the Hebrews. The question of those whom had died in the past as Jews would be brought into question to the believing Christian Jews Paul was writing to. Hebrews 11 th chapter addresses that those Jews in the past had not received the promise yet. Paul & Peter has touched on this topic in other epistles regarding how Jesus had to descend to preach to those in prison, "Abraham's bosom" or "Paradise" whereby at His resurrection, He led the captive in captivity as they were resurrected after Him as reported by Matthew. Then He had to ascend first to the Father when afterwards, He brought the location of Paradise to the third Heaven with the O.T. saints in it where the apostle John was taken to momentarily later on in writing the Book of Revelation. .So Hebrews 9:11 is just addressing what He had done in regards to those under the First Testament or the Old Covenant, but that is by no means limiting what He is doing presently in the New Covenant.

There is no mention of Jesus mediating "for sins under" the second covenant. Jesus as the mediator for sins "under the first covenant" intervened by sin transfer (2Corinthians 5:21). Jesus using His own body as the recipient to take upon Himself all the sins of the world (John 1:29; Hebrews 10:5); He condemned sin in the flesh; by dying in sin, thereby, rendering judgment upon sin at the cross (Romans 8:3). By doing this, Jesus mediates who can and who cannot enter into this New Covenant.

Under the New Covenant God sees sin as being inactive; because of its cancellation; by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:26).

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I am not sure how you can say that when the apostle John was writing the epistle of 1 John about those whom were walking in darkness, believing that sin was no longer sin when they do it. Indeed, under the New Covenant, it is by walking in the light as He has done is how His blood cleanses us from all sin; 1 John 1:3-7 We are called to confess our sins even.. whereby He will forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Greek definition of "put away":
G115 ἀθέτησις [A)QE/THSIS] {athétēsis} \ath-et'-ay-sis\
from 114; cancellation (literally or figuratively):--disannulling, put away.

Romans 3:25
...God has set forth (Jesus) to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (plural) "that are past," through the forbearance of God;

What settlement was Jesus mediating on man's behalf?

Jesus was mediating reconciliation and peace between God and man. This was necessary because "Sin" caused enmity between God and man. If sin could be taken away and removed by the mediator, the enmity "would" also be removed.

In this "Sin" transfer, did Jesus also receive the punishment that the law required if a person sinned against the Law? Yes, Jesus received the full extent of what the law would allow for punishment if a person broke the law (Deuteronomy 25:1-3) (Isaiah 53:4, 5; 10-12).

Because Jesus received the punishment for man, is it possible for man to be punished for his future sins? No! It's not possible. Jesus was punished for all the sins of the world as if He was the only person that committed the sin in the world; and because sin was imputed to Jesus on man's behalf, they were removed for all time. The punishment has also been removed for all time. The punishment came as a result of sin; now that sin has been condemned and taken away, the punishment for sin has also been removed and taken away (Romans 8:2). It is not possible to have punishment without the sin. The punishment is the result of sin (Genesis 3:13-19). It is also not possible to have sin without the punishment (Romans 6:23). Where there is no sin, there is no punishment for sin. It "is not" where there is no punishment, sin still exists.

Sin is only active if God declares it to be active (Romans 5:12). Man cannot disannul what God has annulled (Romans 3:4). Because of Jesus, the mediator, the actions of a man's works contrary to the law is "not being declared" as sin (1Corinthians 5:19); God is not imputing sin or declaring man to have sinned. Why? because the mediator took man's sins upon Himself once for all time (John 1:29) (Hebrews 10: 10, 12, 14; 9:26).

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If you are trying to convey that when a Christian sins, he will not lose his salvation, you are correct, because that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ cannot be removed; HOWEVER 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJV we are warned about how we build on that foundation and even for sowing to the works of the flesh because God is not mocked as corruption can be the result where one's spiritual state can be worse before he was saved. That prodigal son cannot cease to be son, but he can lose his inheritance for ever if he gave it up for wild living... unless he repents before the Bridegroom comes. Make no mistake; God is coming to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV )at the pre great trib rapture event and He is calling every one having His seal; even former believers to turn to Him for help to discern and to depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 KJV ) or else find themselves as castaways ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 KJV ); disqualified from the Marriage Supper in Heaven,

God established a contract/covenant with man through Jesus Christ that He cannot break (Psalms 89:34). The contract or covenant states that God will no longer remember man's sins under the New Covenant.

Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall "take away" their sins.

Greek definition for"take away":
G851 ἀφαιρέω [A)FAIRE/W] {aphairéō} \af-ahee-reh'-o\
from 575 and 138; to remove (literally or figuratively):--cut (smite) off, take away.

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Jesus has reconciled believers back to God and so to live that reconciled relationship with God the Father is through Jesus Christ by trusting Him as our personal Good Shepherd and Friend to help us abide in Him in fellowship as His disciples in order to bear fruit and that our joy may be full.

Jeremiah 31:33

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But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, said the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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This is the difference between living under the Old Covenant and the New Covenant; under the Old Covenant, man had to write His laws on their hearts; under the New Covenant, He will. Under the Old Covenant, man had to do the best they can to keep the law in order to save themselves in entering Heaven, but under the New Covenant, It is finished; they are citizens of the kingdom of light just by believing in Him and by trusting Him to help them to follow Him is the power in living that reconciled relationship with God.

We are no longer identified by the Old Covenant in keeping the law to obtain salvation by but by our faith in Jesus Christ is how we are identified as the children of God. Our walk with Him signify whether we are abiding in Him or not, and when we are not, we can turn to Him for help so that we are abiding in Him.

If we see Jesus as the Lamb of God, then we see Him as how we can approach God the Father in Heaven in asking for forgiveness by the only way provided and that is by the Son at that throne of grace.

The Old Covenant has vanished away as Paul has said... and even though believers are profaning the sabbath day, because their bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is in them, this new reality of the New Covenant is why all Christians are guiltless for profaning the sabbath day. In Matthew 12:1-7 KJV Jesus cited two examples in the O.T. where saints had actually profaned the sabbath but were guiltless because they were in the Temple; and then He said that One greater than the Temple was here; inferring Himself, for why His disciples were guiltless because Jesus is Lord over the sabbath day and not the sabbath day being lord over Jesus. That is why and how He makes every Christian stand regardless of profaning the sabbath day because His righteousness alone apart from the law is able to make them stand. There will be no one glorifying any man as a sabbath day keeper in Heaven when we are all there because of Jesus Christ.

So I hope He is leading you to reconsider how you are presenting this OP. I know I cannot argue the truth nor convince any one of the truth when it is on God to cause the increase.

@JesusIs4Me,

I’m not making assumptions especially when it come to sin. Jesus mediated mine, yours and the sins of the whole world. Adam brought sin into the world and corrupted all men that have entered into this world. No assumption. As far as limiting Christ’s mediation to the Old Covenant this is also fact. You could not be in the body of Jesus Christ unless He became the mediator for you and took your sins upon Himself at the cross (Joh. 14:6).

These are sins of the Old Covenant. You I and anyone else in this world, today, were not born when Jesus finished the work of sins under the first covenant. The second covenant could not be established until the first was taken out of the way. The second covenant was done through the blood of Jesus Christ; not blood of bulls and goats which could not take away sin. A covenant is not in force until blood has been shed.

The reason a born again believer has a new heart is because the corrupt or defiled heart of who he or she had as a sinner has been removed. The new heart Christ has given to a man cannot be defiled through sin (Eze. 36:26). So if you sin, you do not have a new heart or a new spirit and your heart is still defiled. When a sinner confesses they are a sinner and asks for forgiveness (1Jo. 1:9), they are given an uncorruptible new heart and spirit. This can only be if sin has been taken away. If sin has not been taken away the new heart and spirit can become corrupt.

You are teaching a person sins with this new heart; and unless they ask for forgiveness from the sins they’ve committed, their new heart can become corrupt; because sin corrupts.

Jesus acquitted man from the sin of Adam as well as self (Rom. 4:25). I am not accountable for sin. If you desire to believe you still sin, this is the free choice that Christ gave you. You and other confuse sin and unfruitful works in this time of Grace, because you don't understand it, and believe that the penalty for sin has been taken away only, but sin has not.

If you can show me scripture where Jesus took away the penalty of sins without taking away sin under the old covenant or under the new, then I will change my view on sin. If you cannot show me what I’m asking for, you should change your view.

And just a note of clarification, here (for any readers of this thread):

1. regibassman57 confesses that he knows that he sometimes does not do what is right.
2. Knowing what is right (and not doing it) is sin (Jas. 4:17).
3. regibassman57 sometimes sins (from 1 and 2).
4. regibassman57 claims he does not sometimes sin.

So, there we see a fatal contradiction in regibassman57's theological viewpoint. I continue to patiently await his resolution of this contradiction.

Also:

1. regibassman57 says that wrongdoing is of Satan, but is not sin.
2. Wrongdoing is sin (Jas. 4:17).

So again, we have another contradiction in regibassman57's position.

I guess we just need to keep patiently waiting for him to deal with these problems.

blessings to you all...

@bibleguy
Like I told JesusIs4Me, If you can show me scriptures to oppose the scriptures I've prentented, I will change my view.

Show me in scripture where Jesus took away the penalty of sin, but He has not made us free from sin, He has not delivered us from sin, He has not made us dead to sin, He has not taken away our sins, He has not blotted our sins out, He has not healed us of our sins,etc. If you can't do this. Let God be true (Rom. 3:4).

regibassman57 said:

@bibleguy
Like I told JesusIs4Me, If you can show me scriptures to oppose the scriptures I've prentented, I will change my view.

Show me in scripture where Jesus took away the penalty of sin, but He has not made us free from sin, He has not delivered us from sin, He has not made us dead to sin, He has not taken away our sins, He has not blotted our sins out, He has not healed us of our sins,etc. If you can't do this. Let God be true (Rom. 3:4).

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But if I have ALREADY proven a contradiction in your system, then why do you request that I do more?

It's YOU who have the contradiction. Thus, why don't YOU try to figure out what's wrong?

And why do you pretend like it's ok for you to ignore the contradiction until I do more work for you?

That's NOT the proper way to respond to correction.

Rather, it would be better for you to say: "Yes, I think I have reasons to believe that I no longer sin. But, I also know (from Jas. 4:17) that I sometimes sin. Thus, I have not figured out what is wrong with my viewpoint yet."

That would be the HONEST thing to confess.

Instead, you persist in setting forth a viewpoint which I've already shown is contradictory.

And, you've done nothing to explain away the contradiction.

That's not the maximally intellectually honest way to pursue truth, my friend.

You are essentially admitting that your viewpoint is wrong (due to the contradiction), yet you persist is setting it forth as if it were true.

That's not cool...

blessings...

@bibleguy,

You believe you've seen and proven contradictions in what I say. This is only because you cannot understand the information I've been presenting. I notice you believe you have been forgiven of your sins; but you still sin. The reason I can understand what you’re saying is because it’s no different than the Mosaic Covenant of Atonement for sins. You just believe Jesus paid the price for the penalty of sin and has taken away past and present sins. You do not believe that Jesus has atoned for all men’s sins “once for all” and “acquitted” and “absolved” man of their sins.

You believe New Covenant believers should continue acting as Old Covenant believers where sin is concerned; this is what you’ve been preaching from day one. I realize under the Old Covenant Israel was required to confess their sin, bring an offering to the priest and the priest would atone for the sins of the people. God would then cast their sins as far as the east is from the west. If they continued to sin, which they did, the process would just repeat itself. This is the gist of what you believe. Again, you believe New Covenant believers should do today. I disagree.

I already know you cannot find the scriptures I'm asking for, because it's not possible. I've pointed out over 10 scripture teaching that Jesus did much more than forgave man's sins.