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JESUS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:15)

Loyal Member
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

My Reference is Wikipedia for the term "Mediation":
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties with concrete effects. Typically, a third party, the mediator assists the parties to negotiate a settlement.

What is the purpose of Jesus as the Mediator?

Jesus came to mediate sin between the time of Adam and the Cross. This means Jesus is only mediating sins that were under the “first covenant;” “not the second.” Jesus was mediating man's reconciliation back unto God through the atonement for sins. Without the atonement, reconciliation is not possible. Jesus had to become the way, the truth and the life, through the cross, in order for this mediation to be successful (John 14:6).

Hebrews 9:15
...Jesus is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions "that were under the first testament," they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is no mention of Jesus mediating "for sins under" the second covenant. Jesus as the mediator for sins "under the first covenant" intervened by sin transfer (2Corinthians 5:21). Jesus using His own body as the recipient to take upon Himself all the sins of the world (John 1:29; Hebrews 10:5); He condemned sin in the flesh; by dying in sin, thereby, rendering judgment upon sin at the cross (Romans 8:3). By doing this, Jesus mediates who can and who cannot enter into this New Covenant.

Under the New Covenant God sees sin as being inactive; because of its cancellation; by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:26).

Greek definition of "put away":
G115 ἀθέτησις [A)QE/THSIS] {athétēsis} \ath-et'-ay-sis\
from 114; cancellation (literally or figuratively):--disannulling, put away.

Romans 3:25
...God has set forth (Jesus) to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (plural) "that are past," through the forbearance of God;

What settlement was Jesus mediating on man's behalf?

Jesus was mediating reconciliation and peace between God and man. This was necessary because "Sin" caused enmity between God and man. If sin could be taken away and removed by the mediator, the enmity "would" also be removed.

In this "Sin" transfer, did Jesus also receive the punishment that the law required if a person sinned against the Law? Yes, Jesus received the full extent of what the law would allow for punishment if a person broke the law (Deuteronomy 25:1-3) (Isaiah 53:4, 5; 10-12).

Because Jesus received the punishment for man, is it possible for man to be punished for his future sins? No! It's not possible. Jesus was punished for all the sins of the world as if He was the only person that committed the sin in the world; and because sin was imputed to Jesus on man's behalf, they were removed for all time. The punishment has also been removed for all time. The punishment came as a result of sin; now that sin has been condemned and taken away, the punishment for sin has also been removed and taken away (Romans 8:2). It is not possible to have punishment without the sin. The punishment is the result of sin (Genesis 3:13-19). It is also not possible to have sin without the punishment (Romans 6:23). Where there is no sin, there is no punishment for sin. It "is not" where there is no punishment, sin still exists.

Sin is only active if God declares it to be active (Romans 5:12). Man cannot disannul what God has annulled (Romans 3:4). Because of Jesus, the mediator, the actions of a man's works contrary to the law is "not being declared" as sin (1Corinthians 5:19); God is not imputing sin or declaring man to have sinned. Why? because the mediator took man's sins upon Himself once for all time (John 1:29) (Hebrews 10: 10, 12, 14; 9:26).

God established a contract/covenant with man through Jesus Christ that He cannot break (Psalms 89:34). The contract or covenant states that God will no longer remember man's sins under the New Covenant.

Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall "take away" their sins.

Greek definition for"take away":
G851 ἀφαιρέω [A)FAIRE/W] {aphairéō} \af-ahee-reh'-o\
from 575 and 138; to remove (literally or figuratively):--cut (smite) off, take away.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, said the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 
Active Member
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

My Reference is Wikipedia for the term "Mediation":
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties with concrete effects. Typically, a third party, the mediator assists the parties to negotiate a settlement.

What is the purpose of Jesus as the Mediator?

Jesus came to mediate sin between the time of Adam and the Cross. This means Jesus is only mediating sins that were under the “first covenant;” “not the second.” Jesus was mediating man's reconciliation back unto God through the atonement for sins. Without the atonement, reconciliation is not possible. Jesus had to become the way, the truth and the life, through the cross, in order for this mediation to be successful (John 14:6).

Hebrews 9:15
...Jesus is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions "that were under the first testament," they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is no mention of Jesus mediating "for sins under" the second covenant. Jesus as the mediator for sins "under the first covenant" intervened by sin transfer (2Corinthians 5:21). Jesus using His own body as the recipient to take upon Himself all the sins of the world (John 1:29; Hebrews 10:5); He condemned sin in the flesh; by dying in sin, thereby, rendering judgment upon sin at the cross (Romans 8:3). By doing this, Jesus mediates who can and who cannot enter into this New Covenant.

Under the New Covenant God sees sin as being inactive; because of its cancellation; by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:26).

Greek definition of "put away":
G115 ἀθέτησις [A)QE/THSIS] {athétēsis} \ath-et'-ay-sis\
from 114; cancellation (literally or figuratively):--disannulling, put away.

Romans 3:25
...God has set forth (Jesus) to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (plural) "that are past," through the forbearance of God;

What settlement was Jesus mediating on man's behalf?

Jesus was mediating reconciliation and peace between God and man. This was necessary because "Sin" caused enmity between God and man. If sin could be taken away and removed by the mediator, the enmity "would" also be removed.

In this "Sin" transfer, did Jesus also receive the punishment that the law required if a person sinned against the Law? Yes, Jesus received the full extent of what the law would allow for punishment if a person broke the law (Deuteronomy 25:1-3) (Isaiah 53:4, 5; 10-12).

Because Jesus received the punishment for man, is it possible for man to be punished for his future sins? No! It's not possible. Jesus was punished for all the sins of the world as if He was the only person that committed the sin in the world; and because sin was imputed to Jesus on man's behalf, they were removed for all time. The punishment has also been removed for all time. The punishment came as a result of sin; now that sin has been condemned and taken away, the punishment for sin has also been removed and taken away (Romans 8:2). It is not possible to have punishment without the sin. The punishment is the result of sin (Genesis 3:13-19). It is also not possible to have sin without the punishment (Romans 6:23). Where there is no sin, there is no punishment for sin. It "is not" where there is no punishment, sin still exists.

Sin is only active if God declares it to be active (Romans 5:12). Man cannot disannul what God has annulled (Romans 3:4). Because of Jesus, the mediator, the actions of a man's works contrary to the law is "not being declared" as sin (1Corinthians 5:19); God is not imputing sin or declaring man to have sinned. Why? because the mediator took man's sins upon Himself once for all time (John 1:29) (Hebrews 10: 10, 12, 14; 9:26).

God established a contract/covenant with man through Jesus Christ that He cannot break (Psalms 89:34). The contract or covenant states that God will no longer remember man's sins under the New Covenant.

Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall "take away" their sins.

Greek definition for"take away":
G851 ἀφαιρέω [A)FAIRE/W] {aphairéō} \af-ahee-reh'-o\
from 575 and 138; to remove (literally or figuratively):--cut (smite) off, take away.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, said the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
One could argue that "take away their sins" (in Greek, Rom. 11:27) is Paul's paraphrased shorthand summary of Jer. 31:34.

To know God is to obey God (thus not sin); thus when we all finally know God (to the extent that we no longer need to tell anyone else to know God), then our sins will (at that time) finally have been "taken away" in the sense that we will not even be sinning anymore, because we will all know God (thus entailing that we will all not sin at that future time).

This feature of the New Covenant is, of course, not yet fully realized.

Thus, the New Covenant has the property of "already, but not yet". That is, the New Covenant has been inaugurated, but has not yet been FULLY fulfilled in all details.

Same thing for the Abrahamic Covenant: It is has already been inaugurated, but it has not yet been fully fulfilled in all details.

Just some food for thought!

blessings...
 
Loyal Member
Bible Guy,
What about John 1:29, where he says Jesus will "take away sin?"
Do you understand circumcision? Christ has circumcised sin from us. He put sin off of the body by circumcision.
Col 2:11 In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The Abrahamic covenant has been fulfilled when it comes to the promise. Jesus is the promise of the Abrahamic covenant.

The way into God's Heart is "the just shall live by faith and not by sight."

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

If you sin, it's because you are under and justifying yourself by the law; this is why the law tells you that you guilty of sin. Only by the law of justification is the knowledge of sin. "You have knowledge of sin" because you are ignorantly (not a put down) justifying youself by the law. The law tells you that you sin; God is not.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
 
Active Member
Bible Guy,
What about John 1:29, where he says Jesus will "take away sin?"
Do you understand circumcision? Christ has circumcised sin from us. He put sin off of the body by circumcision.
Col 2:11 In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The Abrahamic covenant has been fulfilled when it comes to the promise. Jesus is the promise of the Abrahamic covenant.

The way into God's Heart is "the just shall live by faith and not by sight."

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

If you sin, it's because you are under and justifying yourself by the law; this is why the law tells you that you guilty of sin. Only by the law of justification is the knowledge of sin. "You have knowledge of sin" because you are ignorantly (not a put down) justifying youself by the law. The law tells you that you sin; God is not.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Lot's of good points!

I might add, though, that the Abrahamic Covenant is NOT fully fulfilled. After all, this covenant contains the promised inheritance in the land (Ge. 12:3).

And, Abraham never fully inherited this land as it was promised to him (Heb. 11:8-9).

Thus, the promise of inheritance in the land still remains unfulfilled. And, all of us Christians share in that same promised land-inheritance (Gal. 3:29).

We will inherit the land, fully, in the FUTURE. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.

And yes, the just live by faithfulness (Hab. 2:4, cited by Paul in Gal. 3:11). The Hebrew for "faithfulness" is "emunah" (Hab. 2:4). The way of "emunah" entails Torah-obedience (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138). Thus, Paul (in Gal. 3:11) advocates FAITHFUL Torah-obedience (in contrast to the FAITHLESS Torah-obedience which he vehemently opposes in Galatians, and elsewhere too.)

Some sins are unintentional. Christians who commit unintentional sins need not be identified as people who "are under and justifying yourself by the law". Rather, sometimes we Christians sin due to ignorance of some law which we should be obeying.

For example, many of us Christians sin (in ignorance) by violating Lev. 11, even though Peter applies it to us directly in 1 Pe. 1:16. But, many of us Christians don't even know that we should be obeying Lev. 11. Such Christians are not "justifying themselves by the law", but are simply not yet aware of greater detail regarding how to properly obey God's laws.

Anyway....just wanted to throw this out for consideration.

regards....
 
Loyal Member
Bibleguy,

I may have said this before, but I think it’s encouraging to say again; “iron sharpens iron.” I’m thankful for this site because God told us to meditate on His word, studying to show ourselves approved unto Him (1Timothy 4:15; 2Timothy 2:15). You guys bring questions most people do not ask, in my sector, they just get frustrated if they can’t answer the question or they don’t present proof of scripture about what they’re saying. Also myself, when I didn’t have thorough understanding about emotions, I would get frustrated too. This site allows me to practice in character and getting God’s word in my heart and know I found the answers in scripture.

I notice Bibleguy that you believe we are suppose to keep the Torah in obedience; and I see the scriptures used as your example, but the Torah is the first five books of the bible that Moses wrote. Are you saying that Moses wrote the Ten Commandments?

Under the Old Covenant, “sin” was about the “act” that a person committed; and the law was blind to innocently doing something. If a person did anything contrary to the law, they’ve sinned (1John 3:4); whether intentional or unintentional. If a person sins period, sin is the transgression of the law; the law is not partial to intentional or unintentional sin when it comes to an act. The punishment may differ, but sin is sin under the law. If a person sinned ignorantly they could die. Uzzah died because he touched the Ark of the Covenant unintentionally (2Samuel 6:6-11). If a priest entered into the temple having forgotten to a critical preparation of his body, he would die.

Speaking of the preparation of the body, scripture tells us:

Luk 5:37 And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

The point that I’m making here is, The Holy Ghost is the New Wine, and the bottles are the bodies of people that hold the new wine. From this point I think you can figure out where I’m going. How would you finish this?
 
Loyal Member
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

My Reference is Wikipedia for the term "Mediation":
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties with concrete effects. Typically, a third party, the mediator assists the parties to negotiate a settlement.

What is the purpose of Jesus as the Mediator?

Jesus came to mediate sin between the time of Adam and the Cross. This means Jesus is only mediating sins that were under the “first covenant;” “not the second.” Jesus was mediating man's reconciliation back unto God through the atonement for sins. Without the atonement, reconciliation is not possible. Jesus had to become the way, the truth and the life, through the cross, in order for this mediation to be successful (John 14:6).

Hebrews 9:15
...Jesus is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions "that were under the first testament," they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is no mention of Jesus mediating "for sins under" the second covenant. Jesus as the mediator for sins "under the first covenant" intervened by sin transfer (2Corinthians 5:21). Jesus using His own body as the recipient to take upon Himself all the sins of the world (John 1:29; Hebrews 10:5); He condemned sin in the flesh; by dying in sin, thereby, rendering judgment upon sin at the cross (Romans 8:3). By doing this, Jesus mediates who can and who cannot enter into this New Covenant.

Under the New Covenant God sees sin as being inactive; because of its cancellation; by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:26).

Greek definition of "put away":
G115 ἀθέτησις [A)QE/THSIS] {athétēsis} \ath-et'-ay-sis\
from 114; cancellation (literally or figuratively):--disannulling, put away.

Romans 3:25
...God has set forth (Jesus) to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (plural) "that are past," through the forbearance of God;

What settlement was Jesus mediating on man's behalf?

Jesus was mediating reconciliation and peace between God and man. This was necessary because "Sin" caused enmity between God and man. If sin could be taken away and removed by the mediator, the enmity "would" also be removed.

In this "Sin" transfer, did Jesus also receive the punishment that the law required if a person sinned against the Law? Yes, Jesus received the full extent of what the law would allow for punishment if a person broke the law (Deuteronomy 25:1-3) (Isaiah 53:4, 5; 10-12).

Because Jesus received the punishment for man, is it possible for man to be punished for his future sins? No! It's not possible. Jesus was punished for all the sins of the world as if He was the only person that committed the sin in the world; and because sin was imputed to Jesus on man's behalf, they were removed for all time. The punishment has also been removed for all time. The punishment came as a result of sin; now that sin has been condemned and taken away, the punishment for sin has also been removed and taken away (Romans 8:2). It is not possible to have punishment without the sin. The punishment is the result of sin (Genesis 3:13-19). It is also not possible to have sin without the punishment (Romans 6:23). Where there is no sin, there is no punishment for sin. It "is not" where there is no punishment, sin still exists.

Sin is only active if God declares it to be active (Romans 5:12). Man cannot disannul what God has annulled (Romans 3:4). Because of Jesus, the mediator, the actions of a man's works contrary to the law is "not being declared" as sin (1Corinthians 5:19); God is not imputing sin or declaring man to have sinned. Why? because the mediator took man's sins upon Himself once for all time (John 1:29) (Hebrews 10: 10, 12, 14; 9:26).

God established a contract/covenant with man through Jesus Christ that He cannot break (Psalms 89:34). The contract or covenant states that God will no longer remember man's sins under the New Covenant.

Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall "take away" their sins.

Greek definition for"take away":
G851 ἀφαιρέω [A)FAIRE/W] {aphairéō} \af-ahee-reh'-o\
from 575 and 138; to remove (literally or figuratively):--cut (smite) off, take away.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, said the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
I cannot accept your post here my friend...You've used many scriptures to back up your stance but the majority of those scriptures are partial sentences, and that changes the meaning of what the verses actually say. The Romans 11 verse for example. He was talking of the Jews....The sentence reads "Romans 11:26-27 (KJV)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You will notice...after the word "Jacob" its a colon, not a period, which makes that which comes after, the same sentence.

Doing that changes the meaning, it takes the 'verse' out of context, and it makes your stance meaningless.
You cannot study the Word intellectually...The Word is Spirit and you must study it in spirit.
 
Active Member
Bibleguy,

I may have said this before, but I think it’s encouraging to say again; “iron sharpens iron.” I’m thankful for this site because God told us to meditate on His word, studying to show ourselves approved unto Him (1Timothy 4:15; 2Timothy 2:15). You guys bring questions most people do not ask, in my sector, they just get frustrated if they can’t answer the question or they don’t present proof of scripture about what they’re saying. Also myself, when I didn’t have thorough understanding about emotions, I would get frustrated too. This site allows me to practice in character and getting God’s word in my heart and know I found the answers in scripture.

I notice Bibleguy that you believe we are suppose to keep the Torah in obedience; and I see the scriptures used as your example, but the Torah is the first five books of the bible that Moses wrote. Are you saying that Moses wrote the Ten Commandments?

Under the Old Covenant, “sin” was about the “act” that a person committed; and the law was blind to innocently doing something. If a person did anything contrary to the law, they’ve sinned (1John 3:4); whether intentional or unintentional. If a person sins period, sin is the transgression of the law; the law is not partial to intentional or unintentional sin when it comes to an act. The punishment may differ, but sin is sin under the law. If a person sinned ignorantly they could die. Uzzah died because he touched the Ark of the Covenant unintentionally (2Samuel 6:6-11). If a priest entered into the temple having forgotten to a critical preparation of his body, he would die.

Speaking of the preparation of the body, scripture tells us:

Luk 5:37 And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

The point that I’m making here is, The Holy Ghost is the New Wine, and the bottles are the bodies of people that hold the new wine. From this point I think you can figure out where I’m going. How would you finish this?
Hey there!

I won't guess regarding where you're going with this....but thanks for the chat!

Let's see...yes, there appears to be an overwhelmingly large quantity of Biblical evidence which confirms that we, as Christians, should grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

I don't define "Torah" as "the first five books of the bible that Moses wrote", however.

After all, Genesis was presumably written long before Moses was born. Sure, Moses may have had other sources which he used to codify Genesis into a complete Pentateuch, along with divine inspiration to boot.

But, I see no compelling Biblical reason to require that Genesis be included in "Torah". In fact, there are very few laws in Genesis.

And, "Torah" (law, direction, instruction, etc.) doesn't really come into play until about Ex. 12-13, and then in FULL FORCE from Ex. 20 all the way to Dt. 34. So, I use "Torah" to refer, generally, to the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. And, I think that's pretty consistent with general Biblical usage of the term "Torah" as found in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deteronomy, the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, and the New Testament.

Of course, Ge. 26:5 has Abraham obeying TORAHS which (as far as I can tell) are not anywhere explicitly and completely stated or written or available to us. Thus, ABRAHAMIC Torah is somewhat of a mystery to us (but that's a different discussion). Mosaic Torah is not a mystery. It's in our Bibles.

God spoke the 10 commandments (Ex. 20:1). God also wrote the 10 commandments (Dt. 5:22). Moses also wrote all the words of Torah (Dt. 31:9-12), thus Moses wrote the 10 commandments too.

So, Book of Moses, Torah of Moses, Torah, Law, Law of Moses, Mosaic law, etc., all (I take) to refer to commands, instructions, directions, ordinances, statutes, precepts, judgements, ways, etc., as found generally in Ex. 12-13; Ex. 20 to Dt. 34.

And, since Jeremiah places this Torah into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33), it follows that we New Covenant participants should obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which we participate.

blessings...
 
Loyal Member
Bibleguy

The only thing God requires from New Covenant believers is they keep the Ten Commandment and any other commandment that Jesus has spoken about Love.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shall not commit adultery, Thou shall not kill, Thou shall not steal, Thou shall not bear false witness, Thou shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.

Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shall live.

Notice, Jesus said do this and live… (Matthew 19:17-19 also confirms this)

The Law of Moses, which are carnal commandments and ordinances has been done away with in Christ.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Col 2:14 (Jesus) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Judicial Law was against us; the Sacrificial Law was contrary to us as well as the Ceremonial Law. The Ten Commandments were the only Laws that spoke directly to our spirit, teaching us how to Love our neighbor.

Mar 12:30 And thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

There are no other commandments that are greater than these.
If you are calling this the “Torah,” Moses did not write these.
 
Loyal Member
Bendito,
Paul was speaking unto the Gentiles up until that point, and then he did focus on the Israel in verse 27 and other scriptures “Correct you are!” I must be careful how I read these scriptures; but you are correct.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Let me qualify this scripture in its place; there are many other scriptures to solidify my position on sinless perfection (but I must be careful).

Jesus prophesied He would come and make an “end of sin.” This on behalf of the church.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
 
Active Member
Bibleguy

The only thing God requires from New Covenant believers is they keep the Ten Commandment and any other commandment that Jesus has spoken about Love.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shall not commit adultery, Thou shall not kill, Thou shall not steal, Thou shall not bear false witness, Thou shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.

Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shall live.

Notice, Jesus said do this and live… (Matthew 19:17-19 also confirms this)

The Law of Moses, which are carnal commandments and ordinances has been done away with in Christ.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Col 2:14 (Jesus) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Judicial Law was against us; the Sacrificial Law was contrary to us as well as the Ceremonial Law. The Ten Commandments were the only Laws that spoke directly to our spirit, teaching us how to Love our neighbor.

Mar 12:30 And thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

There are no other commandments that are greater than these.
If you are calling this the “Torah,” Moses did not write these.
You wrote: "The only thing God requires from New Covenant believers is they keep the Ten Commandment and any other commandment that Jesus has spoken about Love."

My response: Ok then!

1. Jesus requires LOVE (Mt. 22:37).
2. The love required by Jesus comes from Dt. 6 (cited by Jesus in Mt. 22:37).
3. The context of Dt. 6 confirms that the LOVE in Dt. 6 requires obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
4. Jesus requires loving obedience to God, to be expressed through obedience to all Torah commands (from 1, 2, 3).

So then, which premise do you challenge? Premise 1, 2, 3, or 4?

And, Col. 2:14 shows that the certificate of debt (Gr. "cheirographon") is canceled, not Torah.

Torah is NOT a certificate of debt. Rather, we incur a debt by virtue of our violation of Torah.

The DEBT is canceled, not Torah!

Or do you oppose Jeremiah (who places TORAH directly into the New Covenant, Jer. 31:33)?

And why do you claim the law of Moses is done away in Christ?

After all, Christ CLEARLY commanded Torah-obedience (Mt. 5:19-20; 4:4; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28),
and with great warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42).

It appears you must oppose Jeremiah and Jesus to maintain your anti-Torah theology.

Are you SURE you want to oppose Jeremiah and Jesus?

blessings...
 
Active Member
Bibleguy,
What are you saying the Torah is exactly?
Torah, Torah of Moses, Law of Moses, Law, Mosaic Law, etc., generally refers (in the Bible) to the commands, precepts, ordinances, laws, instructions, ways, etc., given to Israel in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, especially in Ex. 12-13; and Ex. 20 to Dt. 34.

That's the TORAH which Jeremiah places directly into the New Covenant (see "TORAH", Jer. 31:33; cited in Heb. 8:10; 10:16).

So, if you oppose the Torah, then you've opposed the New Covenant.

Why? Because Torah passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33).

So, I hope that answers your question....

blessings.
 
Loyal Member
Bibleguy,

Are you saying the Ten Commandment and the Ceremonial Laws make up the Torah?

You had me read Exodus 12 and 13 which is talking about ceremonial laws. Exodus 20 is talking about the principle covenant (good), the Ten Commandments. Not sure why 34 was there; it’s mainly talking about God speaking to Mosses and showing him the promise land, which, he cannot enter in.

The Covenant is the Ten Commandments which were spoken of by God in Mount Sinai (Exodus 20: Deuteronomy 4:10-14).

When Jeremiah is talking, he’s speaking about the Ten Commandments. The Covenant of God’s Testimonies (which is the 10 Commandments) and are Everlasting (Psalms 119:144; 119:152).

The Ceremonial Laws and Sacrificial Laws you had me read in Exodus 12 and 13 have nothing to do with the Covenant Jeremiah or Hebrews is talking about. Jesus fulfilled these covenants. This is why I included Colossians 2:14, which you said;

“Torah is NOT a certificate of debt. Rather, we incur a debt by virtue of our violation of Torah. The DEBT is canceled, not Torah!”

Under the Torah the debt was paid by the Judicial Law; sacrifices; this is why I mentioned Colossians 2:14, Jesus paid the debts that were incurred under the first covenant (Hebrew 9:15). Jesus also fulfilled all ceremonial laws within the Law of Moses, taking them out of the way.

So, it seems you saying, believer under the second covenant must keep ceremonial law (Exo. 12,13) and the 10 commandments; is this what you’re saying?

 
Active Member
Bibleguy,

Are you saying the Ten Commandment and the Ceremonial Laws make up the Torah?

You had me read Exodus 12 and 13 which is talking about ceremonial laws. Exodus 20 is talking about the principle covenant (good), the Ten Commandments. Not sure why 34 was there; it’s mainly talking about God speaking to Mosses and showing him the promise land, which, he cannot enter in.

The Covenant is the Ten Commandments which were spoken of by God in Mount Sinai (Exodus 20: Deuteronomy 4:10-14).

When Jeremiah is talking, he’s speaking about the Ten Commandments. The Covenant of God’s Testimonies (which is the 10 Commandments) and are Everlasting (Psalms 119:144; 119:152).

The Ceremonial Laws and Sacrificial Laws you had me read in Exodus 12 and 13 have nothing to do with the Covenant Jeremiah or Hebrews is talking about. Jesus fulfilled these covenants. This is why I included Colossians 2:14, which you said;

“Torah is NOT a certificate of debt. Rather, we incur a debt by virtue of our violation of Torah. The DEBT is canceled, not Torah!”

Under the Torah the debt was paid by the Judicial Law; sacrifices; this is why I mentioned Colossians 2:14, Jesus paid the debts that were incurred under the first covenant (Hebrew 9:15). Jesus also fulfilled all ceremonial laws within the Law of Moses, taking them out of the way.

So, it seems you saying, believer under the second covenant must keep ceremonial law (Exo. 12,13) and the 10 commandments; is this what you’re saying?
Hey there! Looks like you may have misunderstood my citation.

Read it again, my friend! I referred to Exodus 12 to Exodus 13; AND Exodus 20 all the way through Dt. 34 (including everything between Ex. 20 and Dt. 34!)

TORAH includes all the commands, ordinances, judgements, precepts, instructions, etc., contained in this Mosaic law.

Jeremiah says this Torah passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33).

Your opposition to this Torah entails your opposition to an essential element of the New Covenant.

That's a big problem! So, we really need to talk about this, and get to the bottom of this issue.

Now, Torah includes more than merely "ceremonial" laws. Rather, it includes EVERYTHING in the written Torah of Moses (including, for example, statutes, commandments, ordinances, testimonies, ways, 1 Ki. 2:3).

Remember, if you obey Ex. 20:3, then you will obey EVERYTHING that YHVH requires!

And, YHVH requires much more than merely the "10 commandments".

You wrote: "The Covenant is the Ten Commandments which were spoken of by God in Mount Sinai (Exodus 20: Deuteronomy 4:10-14)."

My response: Ex. 20:3 entails obedience to ALL the rest of Torah! So let's not pretend that you can obey the 10 commandments while ignoring the rest of God's Torah.

You wrote: "When Jeremiah is talking, he’s speaking about the Ten Commandments."

My response: No. You just made that up. Jeremiah said TORAH passes into the New Covenant (see "TORAH", Jer. 31:33). And, I've already shown you that TORAH includes much more than merely the 10 commandments. And, Jeremiah did NOT say "ten commandments"...rather, Jeremiah said TORAH (Jer. 31:33).

Looks like you're trying to alter Jer 31:33 to accommodate your anti-Torah position. Yikes! Let's not do that!

You wrote: "The Covenant of God’s Testimonies (which is the 10 Commandments) and are Everlasting (Psalms 119:144; 119:152)."

My response: God's testimonies include MORE than just the 10 Commandments! Ps. 122:4 cites a testimony (Heb. "edut") of YHVH. WHERE is this testimony found? Answer: Ex. 23:17 and Dt. 16:16, not the 10 Commandments. So, it's wrong to assume that all references to "testimonies" are references to merely the 10 Commandments.

Moreover:

1. Ex. 20:3 is everlasting (you agree!)
2. If YHVH is your only God (per Ex. 20:3), then you OBEY all His instructions.
3. YHVH's instructions are contained throughout all TORAH (not merely in the 10 Commandments).
4. Ex. 20:3 entails we should obey all Torah (not merely the 10 Commandments), given 1, 2, and 3.

Do you see it now?

Your acceptance of everlasting "testimonies" (while simultaneously rejecting your obligation to obey other Torah portions) is CONTRADICTORY.

That's a good reason to change your viewpoint so as to eliminate this contradiction.

You wrote: "The Ceremonial Laws and Sacrificial Laws you had me read in Exodus 12 and 13 have nothing to do with the Covenant Jeremiah or Hebrews is talking about. Jesus fulfilled these covenants."

My response: To the contrary, Ex. 12 and 13 are portions of TORAH which Jeremiah places directly into the New Covenant (see "TORAH" in Jer. 31:33).

Not sure why you have a tough time accepting that TORAH passes into the New Covenant. Jeremiah was VERY clear on this (Jer. 31:33).

And, Jesus did NOT fulfill everything in Torah. For example, Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled. Thus, 100% Torah-obedience (per Dt. 30:1-8) is yet FUTURE.

Thus, Christ surely did NOT terminate the Torah which is prophesied to be restored again to 100% complete obedience (per Dt. 30:1-8).

You wrote: "Jesus paid the debts that were incurred under the first covenant (Hebrew 9:15)."

My response: Great! But that's not proof that Torah was canceled in any way. After all, Torah passes DIRECTLY into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33), and the writer of Hebrews AGREES (Heb. 8:10; 10:16).

You wrote: "Jesus also fulfilled all ceremonial laws within the Law of Moses, taking them out of the way."

My response: "fulfilled" does not entail "abolished" or "terminated". Thus, you've not given a reason to suppose Jesus was "taking them out of the way".

Moreover, the "ceremonial" laws of Torah are not "in the way"! Rather, they function as an ongoing shadow which CONTINUES to point to Christ.

Thus, we should not be surprised to discover that Jesus comes to RESTORE those very ceremonial/sacrificial/Levitical Torah regulations (Mal. 3:4).

Please stop opposing the Levitical service which Jesus comes to restore.

You wrote: "So, it seems you saying, believer under the second covenant must keep ceremonial law (Exo. 12,13) and the 10 commandments; is this what you’re saying?"

My response: What does the Messiah declare? He states that your obedience to even the smallest of Torah commands is expected as a condition of greatness in the forthcoming kingdom. (Mt. 5:19)

The 1st-century believers were zealous for all Torah (Ac. 21), thus including SACRIFICIAL/LEVITICAL/CEREMONIAL Torah.

Some of the believers were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac. 6:7).

So again, you've adopted a theological position which flatly opposes the Torah which Jesus teaches us to obey.

And, your position contradicts the 1st-century practice in which believers (even Paul!) participated in (and condoned) sacrificial activity (Ac. 21), for what purpose? To prove Paul walked "orderly according to the law".

And, we should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9) and likewise walk according to the law, just as Paul modeled for us.

Ok....look forward to hearing from you.....

blessings...
 

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