Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

bibleguy · Oct 30, 2018

Ivar said:
@BCsenior
yes and I don't exclude myself.
I suspect the spirit of the son of perdition was on Constantine when he assembled the council back in 325 AD
"Think Chancellor Palpatine if you have watched such things as Star Wars"
Of course I'm sure there are a few notable others

However
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

&
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of Pauline Interpretation will say I am mixing new wine in old skins, etc

However

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hi there! I trust we agree....the TORAH of Moses passes into the New Covenant (see "TORAH", Jer. 31:33). It's ok to obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which we participate.

In fact, Paul applies the Torah of Dt. 30:14 to us in Rom. 10:8. Paul says that this word of faithful Torah-obedience is the word of faith which he preached.

Anyway....I appreciate the comments...and Constantine was a bad boy, seeking to separate the Torah from the followers of the Messiah.

this human · Oct 30, 2018

My good cheer is solely on the basis that Jesus overcame. Repent, in my understanding, is turning to Him. Paul said all things are lawful.

bibleguy · Oct 30, 2018

this human said:
My good cheer is solely on the basis that Jesus overcame. Repent, in my understanding, is turning to Him. Paul said all things are lawful.

Hi! Yes, to repent is to turn to Him.

Some people do not realize, though, that people who properly "turn to Him" will begin growing in faithful obedience to His law.

And, "all things are lawful" is a highly contextualized comment (1 Cor. 6:12; 10:23).

Paul also said we should keep God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19).

So, for Paul, "all things are lawful" does not mean we are free to disobey the commands in God's law.

Well...just wanted to throw out this bit of commentary.....

blessings...

regibassman57 · Oct 30, 2018

@ this human,

All things are lawful for all believers, but Paul also said, “All things are not expedient.”

Under the Mosaic Law all things “were not” lawful for Israel because they were justified by the law. If they did anything contrary to the law they would be cursed.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, “Cursed is every one that “continues not” in all things which are “written in the book of the law to do them.”

Believers in Christ have been redeemed from the curse of the law; this is what makes all things lawful for us through Grace (Rom. 5:20). But because all things "are not expedient” for us, it’s not wise do things contrary to the commandments of Christ; and we “will not” bring forth the character of Christ through those things we are doing unfruitfully..

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:

If a person does not repent from their unfruitful works they will become unapproved or a castaway in the Day of Judgment (1Cor. 9:27).

Lexicon definition for Lawful:

G1832: it is permitted, lawful

bibleguy · Oct 30, 2018

regibassman57 said:
@ this human,

All things are lawful for all believers, but Paul also said, “All things are not expedient.”

Under the Mosaic Law all things “were not” lawful for Israel because they were justified by the law. If they did anything contrary to the law they would be cursed.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, “Cursed is every one that “continues not” in all things which are “written in the book of the law to do them.”

Believers in Christ have been redeemed from the curse of the law; this is what makes all things lawful for us through Grace (Rom. 5:20). But because all things "are not expedient” for us, it’s not wise do things contrary to the commandments of Christ; and we “will not” bring forth the character of Christ through those things we are doing unfruitfully..

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:

If a person does not repent from their unfruitful works they will become unapproved or a castaway in the Day of Judgment (1Cor. 9:27).

Lexicon definition for Lawful:

G1832: it is permitted, lawful

Just wanted to remind the readers here: the SAME Torah (as in Moses' day) passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33, see "TORAH" in Hebrew there).

Thus, we are ALSO justified if we obey the law, according to Paul (Rom. 2:13).

Furthermore, 1 Cor. 6:12-13 is talking about how ALL FOODS are lawful (not that every conceivable action a person could perform is lawful!) Same thing in Torah: All FOODS are lawful (Lev. 11.; Dt. 14).

Same thing in 1 Cor. 10:23-25...it's talking about how ALL FOODS are lawful (not that every conceivable action a person could perform is lawful!) Same thing in Torah: All FOODS are lawful (Lev. 11.; Dt. 14).

Paul never said you could eat in violation of Torah!

That's why Paul condoned a vow (Ac. 21), to prove he "walked orderly according to the law". We should likewise imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9), and eat all lawful foods in accordance with Lev. 11/Dt. 14.

blessings...

regibassman57 · Oct 30, 2018

@bibleguy,
This is a study and learning forum with many different opinions, but everything doesn't have to be a challenge. If there is anything happening let's stay cordial and keep it simple. We are learning, and I don't think i ever would have gotten this deep, speaking on the subject of the Torah. I've learned a lot through talking with you; but don't let it become personal. We both desire to Love and serve Jehovah God and that's all that matter.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

bibleguy · Oct 31, 2018

regibassman57 said:
@bibleguy,
This is a study and learning forum with many different opinions, but everything doesn't have to be a challenge. If there is anything happening let's stay cordial and keep it simple. We are learning, and I don't think i ever would have gotten this deep, speaking on the subject of the Torah. I've learned a lot through talking with you; but don't let it become personal. We both desire to Love and serve Jehovah God and that's all that matter.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Hope I haven't offended you....sorry if so.

And sure, cordial is good....although there are times when a notably non-cordial methodology is required when religious people oppose Torah (e.g., Mt. 23; Mk. 7; Mt. 7; Mt. 13).

And, I appreciate your request to "keep it simple". However, Paul was not simple (2 Pe. 3:16), and we should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

God is not simple either (Is. 55:9), and we should imitate God (Eph. 5:1).

And, I appreciate your request to not "let it become personal". But honestly....I don't know how to avoid the fact that this issue is of PROFOUND significance for all of us, personally.

So yes, I suppose I can be pretty intense at times....but again, that's only because of a genuine passion to pursue the things of God. It's evident you share that same passion....and that's a good thing!

So, if emotions get intense from time to time...well hey....I think we'll be ok!

Paul got intense with Peter as necessary (Gal. 2:11). And that's because these things are not idle curiosities...but they are of ETERNAL significance, requiring blunt rebuke (2 Ti. 3:16) or even worse (Gal. 1:8-9).

Sometimes we must even SHAME others (2 Th. 3:14).

So, you gotta do what you gotta do.

You see, God REALLY desires that we all get on the same page, same track, in unity in knowledge, so that we can better serve in pursuit of God's agenda for the world.

Sadly, our religious establishment is profoundly muddled by false beliefs all around.

We have MUCH work to do!

And the wolves among us must be exposed (Rev. 2:2).

And the sheep unintentionally promoting wolf-theology must likewise be corrected (in strongest terms, if necessary, Eze. 34).

blessings....

this human · Oct 31, 2018

bibleguy said:
Hi! Yes, to repent is to turn to Him.

Some people do not realize, though, that people who properly "turn to Him" will begin growing in faithful obedience to His law.

And, "all things are lawful" is a highly contextualized comment (1 Cor. 6:12; 10:23).

Paul also said we should keep God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19).

So, for Paul, "all things are lawful" does not mean we are free to disobey the commands in God's law.

Well...just wanted to throw out this bit of commentary.....

blessings...

It is no mere human who is to judge who "properly" turns to Him and Jesus will have mercy on who He will, despite our judgement of who obeys or who doesn't. Will there be any of us mere humans who are accepted into the beloved who are not there solely as a result of His mercy?

Ivar · Oct 31, 2018

this human said:
It is no mere human who is to judge who "properly" turns to Him and Jesus will have mercy on who He will, despite our judgement of who obeys or who doesn't. Will there be any of us mere humans who are accepted into the beloved who are not there solely as a result of His mercy?

@this human

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

regibassman57 · Oct 31, 2018

@bibleguy,
Do you believe that Israel was had a free choice, or a forced choice in the things they did under the Mosaic Laws?

bibleguy · Oct 31, 2018

this human said:
It is no mere human who is to judge who "properly" turns to Him and Jesus will have mercy on who He will, despite our judgement of who obeys or who doesn't. Will there be any of us mere humans who are accepted into the beloved who are not there solely as a result of His mercy?

Yes, we could not live without His mercy (Gr. "ἔλεος", Heb. "חֶסֶד").

But, it's clear that God's ἔλεος does not extend to all people.

Rather, it extends to those who love God in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 5:10).

And, it's proper for us to make correct judgements (1 Cor. 11:13; Jn. 7:24; Ac. 4:19; 1 Cor. 5:12; 1 Cor. 6:3; 1 Cor. 10:15).

And, it's proper for us to use Scripture to set forth a judgment of rebuke, correction, and training (2 Ti. 3:16).

But of course, it's not my job to judge the secrets of another person's heart....that's the Lord's job.

blessings...

bibleguy · Oct 31, 2018

regibassman57 said:
@bibleguy,
Do you believe that Israel was had a free choice, or a forced choice in the things they did under the Mosaic Laws?

We are Israel (as New Covenant participants, Jer. 31:31-33) who should be having TORAH (Jer. 31:33) written upon our hearts so that we obey it (Dt. 30:14, cited by Paul in Rom. 10:8).

And just like OT Israel, we must also freely CHOOSE (Dt. 30:19) to obey Torah. (Paul applies this very passage to YOU in Rom. 10:8).

Joshua agrees (Jos. 24:15) we should CHOOSE to serve YHVH....and proper service to YHVH includes OBEYING Torah (Jos. 22:5).

If you are WILLING to find out the truth, then you will find out the truth (Jn. 7:17).

Torah is truth! (Ps. 119:142).

Blessings...

bibleguy · Oct 31, 2018

bibleguy said:
Yes, we could not live without His mercy (Gr. "ἔλεος", Heb. "חֶסֶד").

But, it's clear that God's ἔλεος does not extend to all people.

Rather, it extends to those who love God in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 5:10).

And, it's proper for us to make correct judgements (1 Cor. 11:13; Jn. 7:24; Ac. 4:19; 1 Cor. 5:12; 1 Cor. 6:3; 1 Cor. 10:15; Mt. 7:20). ===> Also 1 Cor. 2:15 (thanks Ivar!) <===

And, it's proper for us to use Scripture to set forth a judgment of rebuke, correction, and training (2 Ti. 3:16).

But of course, it's not my job to judge the secrets of another person's heart....that's the Lord's job.

blessings...

regibassman57 · Oct 31, 2018

@bibleguy,
I don't see that Israel had a free choice. If they unintentionally sinned, as Uzzah did (2Sam.6:3-8), they died. If they sought to practice keeping God's commandment and they unintentionally sin or a family member of the Children of Israel sinned, the whole family could be judged and condemned to death; as in the case of Achan (Jos. 7). This is not a choice.

New Covenant believers are not under this burden. They are free to do as they please without fear of death or punishment directly from God as a result of their actions; they may be judged by the world. They can be 21 years old and continue to learn about life without being punished if they made a mistake. Believers in Christ are not stoning their wife alone because she committed adultry though it takes two (John 8:2, 3). Under the Law of Moses it could cost them their life wrong or right. It was based on a person perception. The parents are not stoning their children to death because they acted out in emotions or had a mental disease which affected their actions. New Covenant believers have a choice and are free to learn without the threat of punishment and death for eating pork or touching a dead body or masturbation. Believers have a choice.

Can a believer do as they please, yes. I've consistently said, there are consequences for those that are disobedient to the words of Jesus Christ (Mat. 13:41).

bibleguy · Oct 31, 2018

Howdy!

Why assume Uzzah sinned unintentionally?

That's not obvious from the text you cited.

For all we know, Uzzah intentionally chose to disobey God (using the disruption from the oxen as an excuse to disobey).

In fact, if Uzzah intentionally disobeyed, then that could help explain one reason why God was particularly angry with Uzzah.

And, intentional violation of Torah CONTINUES to carry the death penalty even in NT times (1 Cor. 5:5; Dt. 22:22; Heb. 10:28). And even WORSE penalties than mere physical death (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23; 13:41-42; Heb. 10:26-31).

And, God could strike a person dead at any time (Ac. 5).

And, intentional sin likewise incurs the wrath of God today, even more so than in earlier times (Heb. 10:28-31).

And, unintentional sin generally does NOT incur one's death. Why? The Torah has provision for unintentional sin (e.g., Lev. 4:27ff).

And, yes, people (other than Achan) suffered for the sin of Achan. But that's still true today! When others sin, it negatively affects not only themselves, but also others, sometimes even to the extent that one man's sin causes others to die.

So, the conditions in the time of Moses are the same as today, in these various respects.

Stoning laws are not presently observed simply because we (in this present diaspora) live scattered throughout the world in Torah-disobedient governments.

ALL Torah (Dt. 30:1-8) will again be obeyed in the future, AFTER we return to the land (Dt. 30:8).

You wrote: "They are free to do as they please without fear of death or punishment directly from God as a result of their actions "

My response: We are NOT free to do as we please. A person with their father's wife still deserves death (1 Cor. 5:5).

We are NOT free to do as we please. We are Christ's slave (1 Cor. 7:22). A slave OBEYS the master. The Master commands Torah (Mt. 5:19; 4:4; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23:13:41-42), and with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28).

We are not free to disobey Torah. The very Torah should be upon our hearts so that we OBEY it (Dt. 30:14 is cited FAVORABLY by Paul in Rom. 10:8).

Torah is foundational to the New Covenant itself (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16).

And why assume it's ok to eat pork? Peter applied Lev. 11 to YOU in 1 Pe. 1:16. Please stop opposing Peter.

And, the very passage you quote (Mt. 13:41-42) describes a horrible punishment to be brought against those who commit "lawlessness" (Gr. "anomia"). So why do you encourage Torah-lessness by encouraging us to violate the Torah (Lev. 11) by eating pork? That's doesn't make sense.

We were expected to choose to obey Torah in the past (Dt. 30:19), and Paul continues to apply this passage to us as New Covenant participants (Rom. 10:8 applies Dt. 30 to YOU).

We chose then....we choose now.

blessings...

regibassman57 · Oct 31, 2018

@bibleguy,
It’s obvious to me.
You asked: Why assume Uzzah sinned unintentionally?
Bibleguy, everything does not have to be debatable…
Uzzah was one of God’s chosen men; and Israel was in a state of praise; rejoicing before The Lord.
Uzzah saw the cart shake and he sought to prevent it from possibly falling. This alludes to to the point it was not intentional.

2Sa 6:6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.

bibleguy · Oct 31, 2018

bibleguy said:
Howdy!

Why assume Uzzah sinned unintentionally?

That's not obvious from the text you cited.

For all we know, Uzzah intentionally chose to disobey God (using the disruption from the oxen as an excuse to disobey).

In fact, if Uzzah intentionally disobeyed, then that could help explain one reason why God was particularly angry with Uzzah.

And, intentional violation of Torah CONTINUES to carry the death penalty even in NT times (1 Cor. 5:5; Dt. 22:22; Heb. 10:28; Mt. 7:21-23; 13:41-42).

And, God could strike a person dead at any time (Ac. 5).

And, intentional sin likewise incurs the wrath of God today, even more so than in earlier times (Heb. 10:28-31).

And, unintentional sin generally does NOT incur one's death. Why? The Torah has provision for unintentional sin (e.g., Lev. 4:27ff).

And, yes, people (other than Achan) suffered for the sin of Achan. But that's still true today! When others sin, it negatively affects not only themselves, but also others, sometimes even to the extent that one man's sin causes others to die.

So, the conditions in the time of Moses are the same as today, in these various respects.

Stoning laws are not presently observed simply because we (in this present diaspora) live scattered throughout the world in Torah-disobedient governments.

ALL Torah (Dt. 30:1-8) will again be obeyed in the future, AFTER we return to the land (Dt. 30:8).

You wrote: "They are free to do as they please without fear of death or punishment directly from God as a result of their actions "

My response: We are NOT free to do as we please. A person with their father's wife still deserves death (1 Cor. 5:5).

We are NOT free to do as we please. We are Christ's slave (1 Cor. 7:22). A slave OBEYS the master. The Master commands Torah (Mt. 5:19; 4:4; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34) with warnings against those who disobey (Mt. 5:19-20; 7:21-23:13:41-42), and with the promise of eternal life to those who obey (Lk. 10:25-28).

We are not free to disobey Torah. The very Torah should be upon our hearts so that we OBEY it (Dt. 30:14 is cited FAVORABLY by Paul in Rom. 10:8).

Torah is foundational to the New Covenant itself (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16).

And why assume it's ok to eat pork? Peter applied Lev. 11 to YOU in 1 Pe. 1:16. Please stop opposing Peter.

And, the very passage you quote (Mt. 13:41-42) describes a horrible punishment to be brought against those who commit "lawlessness" (Gr. "anomia"). So why do you encourage Torah-lessness by encouraging us to violate the Torah (Lev. 11) by eating pork? That's doesn't make sense.

blessings...

regibassman57 said:
@bibleguy,
It’s obvious to me.
You asked: Why assume Uzzah sinned unintentionally?
Bibleguy, everything does not have to be debatable…
Uzzah was one of God’s chosen men; and Israel was in a state of praise; rejoicing before The Lord.
Uzzah saw the cart shake and he sought to prevent it from possibly falling. This alludes to to the point it was not intentional.

2Sa 6:6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.

Hi again!

Sorry you don't like my writing style!

You can just ignore me if you like....but I have no choice but to critically test what others state.

And, since Jesus encourages attention to the smallest stroke of a letter (Mt. 5:18), it seems I've got good grounds for paying close attention to details.

And, it's true that the Scriptural details you've set forth do not explicitly state Uzzah's intentions. Right?

So, if I point out something true, then please don't be discouraged into thinking it's a "debate". Rather, be excited that I pointed out something true for us to learn together!

Now, did Uzzah have a CHOICE to abstain from touching the ark?

Of course he had a choice! He simply made the wrong choice.

Wrong choices have consequences, whether we like it or not.

Abraham thought he was doing the right thing (by bringing Ishmael into the world), but that was ALSO a faithless act, just like Uzzah's faithless act.

If Uzzah had pure faithful obedience, then he could have faith that God would fix any problems associated with unstable oxen.

Instead, Uzzah took things into his own hands (just like Abraham with Ishmael, and just like Moses with the staff-rock-water issue, and just like Paul in his faithless persecution of the church), and negative consequences ensued.

We had the need to choose to obey Torah in Moses' day.

We have the need to choose to obey Torah today.

Now, feel free to share whatever opinion you have.

I'm always welcome to learn from you.

Correct me and I'll be thankful!

blessings....

regibassman57 · Oct 31, 2018

@bibleguy,
I never preseneted that they didn't have a choice, I presented it was a forced choice. They had to be aware of their every action. If they were ignorant of a law and they sinned, they would be condemned of sin and would have to remember what they needed to do to be forgiven, If the priest offered wrong offering in the Holy of Holies, they would die.

Six hundred and thirteen laws are a lot to memorize. It takes practice and rememberance to keep those laws; which if they side step or just heard the law and forgot, they would die or be punished in some way. Sometime people have moments in lapse of judgment, not intentional; but it happens, and Israel was human. However, we see the many intentional error and unintentional from the Kings that were put in place in Israel and many were put to death with their families; who were innocent in the matter. But because the King was corrupt it meant his seed should die. Saul's son Mephibosheth was blessed by David.

bibleguy · Oct 31, 2018

regibassman57 said:
@bibleguy,
I never preseneted that they didn't have a choice, I presented it was a forced choice. They had to be aware of their every action. If they were ignorant of a law and they sinned, they would be condemned of sin and would have to remember what they needed to do to be forgiven, If the priest offered wrong offering in the Holy of Holies, they would die.

Six hundred and thirteen laws are a lot to memorize. It takes practice and rememberance to keep those laws; which if they side step or just heard the law and forgot, they would die or be punished in some way. Sometime people have moments in lapse of judgment, not intentional; but it happens, and Israel was human. However, we see the many intentional error and unintentional from the Kings that were put in place in Israel and many were put to death with their families; who were innocent in the matter. But because the King was corrupt it meant his seed should die. Saul's son Mephibosheth was blessed by David.

Not sure what "forced choice" means. Either I cause myself to perform an action, or I don't.

Dt. 30:19 is pretty clear: we freely choose to obey or disobey Torah.

Jos. 24:15 is pretty clear: choose for yourselves whom you will serve.

Jer. 31:33 is pretty clear: the same TORAH passes into the New Covenant in which we participate.

No one "forced" the Israelites to obey. They could freely disobey if they wanted to disobey.

And sadly, many of them chose to disobey! That's WHY Israelites were scattered all across the planet (Dt. 29).

But, Moses PROMISES that we will, again, obey 100% of all Torah in the future (Dt. 30:1-8) when we again return to the promised land. So please stop opposing this prophecy of Moses.

You wrote: "Six hundred and thirteen laws are a lot to memorize. It takes practice and rememberance to keep those laws; which if they side step or just heard the law and forgot, they would die or be punished in some way."

My response: Why assume 613? I'm not persuaded Maimonides counted correctly (e.g., Dt. 4:15 appears missing from his list, eh?)

Hosea appears to suggest that there are THOUSANDS of instructions in Torah (Hos. 8:12).

And, not all Torah-disobedience would bring punishment....why assume ALL Torah-disobedience brought death or punishment to a person?

I think you've got an incorrect conception of the nature of life in the time of ancient Israel.

God's MERCY (not death and punishment) followed those who obeyed Torah (Dt. 5:10), and if incidental sin occasionally occurred, then the sacrificial system temporarily ATONED (covered) for that sin (awaiting the final removal of all sin by the Messiah).

blessings....

regibassman57 · Oct 31, 2018

@bibleguy,
A forced choice affects a person who is tempted to do something pleasurable; but because they know they will be punished or die, they reconsider their actions. Not because they love God, but because they are fearful of God’s wrath.

This is different than a free choice. A free choice gives Grace to do as you please without being punished or die if you sin one time. Grace give a person the freedom, with time, to make choices right or wrong without the law immediately condemning them. And if the law doesn't see the person's error, God will.

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