Spockrates said:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

(Ephesians 2:8-10)

So I have a lot of questions about the meaning of this passage of scripture. I don't doubt it means we are saved by grace, nor through faith, nor apart from our own good deeds. I'm just wondering if the passage means we are saved through faith alone--through nothing else but faith.

I tend to ask a lot of follow up questions, but don't feel obligated to answer them all. Post and go, or post and stay as long as you like to help me learn the truth.

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norapture said:

Hey Spock rates
I believe when Paul said not by works , he was talking about the works of the law.
For James said that faith without works is dead, and said that man
is justified by works.
So Paul and James are not in
disagreement , with each other
Because all scripture is given by
God.
So if scripture , lines up together
and it should, line upon line ,
precept upon precept.

Sripture tells us , that no man will
be justified by the deeds of the law
God as giving ever man , a
measure of faith.

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Now if he gave us that faith, then it
a gift , and belongs to us, now
what we do with it is up to us.
Like grace its a gift, but what we do with it, is up to us.

We can let our faith be dead, or make it alive
Also we can make grace void, if we turn back to the law, and live by the works of the law, then we have falling from grace.
There is no sin against, good works done by faith.

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Johnlove said:

Before God gave Christians the Holy Spirit, if people obeyed God, it was through their own efforts/work.

Now through faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit one is able, not by his or her efforts/work, but God’s effort in and through the person, able to obey God.

One can’t obey God, and in doing so defeat Satan/sin without the grace from God, and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So it is no longer one’s efforts/work that makes him or her righteous, but the Holy Spirit’s work in and through a person.

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 4-5) “This was so that the Law's requirements might be fully satisfied in us as we direct our lives not by our natural inclinations but by the Spirit.”

So many people misunderstand Paul’s writings. Peter warned us about those who do that.

(2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.”

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Spockrates said:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

(Ephesians 2:8-10)

So I have a lot of questions about the meaning of this passage of scripture. I don't doubt it means we are saved by grace, nor through faith, nor apart from our own good deeds. I'm just wondering if the passage means we are saved through faith alone--through nothing else but faith.

I tend to ask a lot of follow up questions, but don't feel obligated to answer them all. Post and go, or post and stay as long as you like to help me learn the truth.

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Spockrates said:

I appreciate the reply, JohnLove and have some questions. But don't feel obligated to answer.

If I had to guess, I'd say you are defining grace in a broader sense than some Christians do. Ask them what grace is, and they might say it's God's undeserved favor. But I'm thinking if I asked you, you might say it's God's undeserved favor and power to empower us to obey.

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Thiscrosshurts said:

John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
John 8:15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

God is not judging anyone and neither is the son.

James 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
There is only one judging you.
I dare say we judge ourselves by judging others.
If you believe.there is more to do to be forgiven(saved) then you would be correct because you are the judge.
If you believe you are forgiven then you are correct because you are the judge.
Whatever you require of of another will be required of and by you.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Give it a think.
ps...I love and forgive you all.

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Johnlove said:

(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already; the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

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Thiscrosshurts said:

That word has already judged me as clean,but my feet might still get dirty.
John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

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Johnlove said:

That is sad.

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Thiscrosshurts said:

Why is being clean sad?
Being clean is being without sin.

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Thiscrosshurts said:

John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
John 8:15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

God is not judging anyone and neither is the son.

James 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
There is only one judging you.
I dare say we judge ourselves by judging others.
If you believe.there is more to do to be forgiven(saved) then you would be correct because you are the judge.
If you believe you are forgiven then you are correct because you are the judge.
Whatever you require of of another will be required of and by you.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Give it a think.
ps...I love and forgive you all.

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Johnlove said:

Getting dirty again is what is sad.

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Dovegiven said:

Look at how God accepted Abraham's use of faith after that Iraqi being blessed by the grace of God. He received the command to get up and move his family to an unknown destination. That would be like packing up in a moving van and just driving out without a map or choosing a town to go to. Wherever you land you become a "squatter", taking over someone else's property. He ended up circling the Arabian desert, passing through Canaan, into Egypt, then back to Canaan and prosperity. The faith? Hearing God command it, then doing something he had not done before. If he had or could do it, then it would have been faith, but more like taking an adventurous vacation.
Concerning God's promise he would be a father to a child born to barren wife Sarah was and still would be a serious challenge today for a man aged 100, wife 90+. The notion was humorous to her, puzzling to him. Though he lived on to 175, Sarah to 127, baby-making got turned on in spite of old age, and started another family with a new wife after Sarah died.

Abraham's faith was to have an understanding of a yet unwritten definition of faith.
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

They knew the strikingly beautiful Sarah couldn't conceive, and so did the women around her remind her often, a matter of ridicule among them to her. Abraham got out of faith fathering Ishmael by Hagar with Sarah's permission, though whom God did not promise a son through Hagar. That gave evidence the man was capable, ought not be childless. But because God promised a son by Sarah, the couple obtained that son Isaac on the basis of the promise by getting past the obvious natural barrier of barrenness. Today folks facing that problem adopt or try an alternative method through physicians or a surrogate mother. The son of promise was born just as the Lord had promised. The process went from hope from God to having the promise in hand unto conceiving and birthing, doing the naturally impossible. Sarah had plenty of evidence of things not seen, even though she laughed at the idea.

Hebrews 11 has enough examples of people pleasing God through faith, some one-time events covering but a few hours. But the highest form of having faith requires some act called for by a promise of God. As in the cases God cites in Heb 11 and many other places in the Bible, acceptable faith is not merely a mental assent. It is always an act of obedience to a command from God. No man comes to Jesus without the Father God calling us to him. There is no sitting on a pew in a church service saying inwardly you agree Jesus is Savior. Just saying those words will not seal your salvation. The prostitute Rahab took heroic action by faith her plot would not fail based on what little she had heard about the God of the spies. Today people deciding to follow and not abandon Jesus face beheading. The faith of salvation in Christ is one long act of obedience in answer to faith, walking out of the natural flesh life, dying to sin not of our own power, but by faith in Jesus.

The book of James does a fine job of agreeing with the other apostles and Jesus concerning salvation by grace through faith what living by faith is about.

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Johnlove said:

Yes grace is what God gives one to enable him or her to do as he or she is told to do by God.

Grace is God’s work in his children to keep them safe from Satan/sin. His children by allowing God’s grace to keep them safe, are giving glory to God.

The reason Jesus came was to make it so his children could defeat Satan/sin.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because is of the devil. The devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

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Spockrates said:

Good to hear from you again, this cross! I looked up the passage you quoted and found Jesus went in to say this:

26 "For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is comingwhen all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

(John 5)

First he says he does not judge, then he immediately says he does judge! I don't think he is capable of contradicting himself. But how do we show there is no illogical contradiction?

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Spockrates said:

First he says he does not judge, then he immediately says he does judge! I don't think he is capable of contradicting himself. But how do we show there is no illogical contradiction?

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Dovegiven said:

First take into account the context of those two verses that are out of context enough to cause them to appear contradictory. If you read the following passage carefully it will be revealed how Jesus will judge
John 5:18-30 (KJV)
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus will be the One who judges (decides) who will be resurrected to safety,to eternal life with him. A thousand years later he will bring up the evil dead. The delay is to lump all past evil doers in with the who rebel after the end of Jesus' millennial reign when Satan is loosed to deceive many. Until then Jesus said he judges on the basis of hearing then saying/doing what the Father tells him to do. He doesn't seek his own will, but does the will of the Father.

Now let's look at the context around Jn 8:15.
John 8:3-16 (KJV)
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Again, Jesus pointed to what the Father said, which he obeyed. He came as the light of the world, not Judge. He will return as Judge.

I hope that helps you see there is no contradiction.

.

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