Do You Have To Be Baptised To Recieve The Holy Spirit
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B-A-C
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How do you know if you have the Holy Spirit?
The Bible doesn't say those who believe God have God in them, it says those who keep his commandments have God in them.
(John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 Jn 2:3-4; 1 Jn 3:24; )
You say faith alone saves you, but then you say works are what proves you are saved??? Which is it... faith alone? Or faith plus works?
Stickz
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Psalms 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
I do not believe these verses are referring to every human that ever lived on the earth with the exception of Jesus Christ, the way that many try to use them. If that were true then the following verse includes everyone too
Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
and you have to call on the Lord to be "saved".
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
I do not believe these verses are referring to every human that ever lived on the earth with the exception of Jesus Christ, the way that many try to use them. If that were true then the following verse includes everyone too
Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
and you have to call on the Lord to be "saved".
RJ
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I thought we were talking about the falling away to apostasy, in which case, Christ would not have been involved. Otherwise, with Christ in them, they may have pulled back or away but not fallen away. In the end God will determine who truly has his son in them or not!
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
RJ
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Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you?
Is God in you?
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
- through faith; and that not of yourselves ....saved by faith first and not of works
- 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.....It is God's work not yours...if it could be your works the you would boast....like some boast that "they are saved by baptism and you are not"
Stickz
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Whether you believe and go up to an altar in a church to be saved or believe and go to be baptized what is the difference except that the baptism leaves you wet. There is action involving you either way. I don't really see being baptized as boasting either, nor do people ( or they shouldn't anyway ) that believe the baptism to be an important part of one's salvation claim that they saved themselves through it or invented it as a means to salvation outside of Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This event took place after the resurrection and ascension of Christ ( not that that really ever comes in to play for me, but I say it for those of you that it matters to ) and after the Holy Ghost was given at Pentecost. Why didn't Peter just say to believe and that is it?
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This event took place after the resurrection and ascension of Christ ( not that that really ever comes in to play for me, but I say it for those of you that it matters to ) and after the Holy Ghost was given at Pentecost. Why didn't Peter just say to believe and that is it?
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Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
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John the Baptist was even born before Jesus was. The first earth was destroyed by water and according to scripture it will be fire next, right? Water before fire ...?
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Just throwing that out there. Found the coincidence interesting. The following happened after the Red Sea:
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. The place which I have prepared is symbolical for what?
Exodus 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Just found the warning eerily similar.
Exodus 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Exodus 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
I Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
I Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
water came before the mysterious Angel did. Just saying. Then after Joshua took over for Moses and lead another generation of people into the "the place which I have prepared" or "the Promised Land"
Joshua 4:1 And it came to pass, when all the people were clean passed over Jordan, that the LORD spake unto Joshua, saying, Baptism?
Then another mysterious visitor:
Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? Joshua 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Maybe it means something and maybe it doesn't ...? I do see the story of Moses and Joshua as a foreshadowing of some sort to the salvation that would come to people in the New Testament. Completely unrelated you say? Are they? All the way down to the similarities between Jesus and Joshua's name, I find it interesting.
Just saying.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Just throwing that out there. Found the coincidence interesting. The following happened after the Red Sea:
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. The place which I have prepared is symbolical for what?
Exodus 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Just found the warning eerily similar.
Exodus 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Exodus 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
I Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
I Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
water came before the mysterious Angel did. Just saying. Then after Joshua took over for Moses and lead another generation of people into the "the place which I have prepared" or "the Promised Land"
Joshua 4:1 And it came to pass, when all the people were clean passed over Jordan, that the LORD spake unto Joshua, saying, Baptism?
Then another mysterious visitor:
Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? Joshua 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Maybe it means something and maybe it doesn't ...? I do see the story of Moses and Joshua as a foreshadowing of some sort to the salvation that would come to people in the New Testament. Completely unrelated you say? Are they? All the way down to the similarities between Jesus and Joshua's name, I find it interesting.
Just saying.
I do not think you have to be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit. I believe you are born by the Spirit into the kingdom of God, but I also believe in a second work of the Holy Spirit...the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16). The Holy Spirit indwells our life after conversion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit allows what is on the inside to move out in our lives. If you study scriptures there is a difference in the indwelling (in us) and upon us. There is also scripture that shows you can be filled more than once. Interesting study...indwelling...upon...filling of the Holy Spirit.
But water baptism is only an outward act of faith showing what has ALREADY taken place on the inside.
But water baptism is only an outward act of faith showing what has ALREADY taken place on the inside.
Stickz
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Jesus commanded us to baptize disciples, but can you show me where he said why we should baptize them? It will take more than one post to share why I believe this.
Do you believe in Acts 10 that Cornelius was born again before or after baptism?
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I wanna say that I explained my view of Cornelius and his soldiers earlier in this thread, but I'll try to summarize: I believe that God gave Cornelius and his men the Holy Ghost before their baptism just basically to show Peter ( who had an issue with the whole Jew-Gentile thing anyway ) that the Gentiles were also being included in his invitation to salvation. Peter questioned Cornelius and his men receiving the Holy Ghost before being baptized in water for a reason, in my opinion.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Peter, and I can only assume all the others that were at Pentecost, believed that the Holy Ghost was supposed to come after the baptism. Acts 11:1-18 helps to further explain what I am talking about. I believe Peter reiterates the story again later too. It is the only time in scripture where you can find people that received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized in water. Paul runs into some people that said that they knew John's baptism and Paul still baptized them before he laid hands on them for them to receive the Holy Ghost. To me, this is very similar to the argument that the thief on the cross didn't receive the water baptism before being allowed into Heaven, and he is the only person that you can find anywhere in scripture that you could lay some doubt on about the baptism including much of the Old Testament people, apparently. If some of you do not want to be baptized or don't believe in it then you definitely should not do it, I don't mind, do what you will. I'm just showing what I see in scripture.
Yes, Cornelius and his men were chosen by God and received the Holy Ghost while they were listening to Peter talk--notice it doesn't even mention anything about them believing what they were hearing or anything either.
I still want to see scripture and/or explanation to why so many people say that baptism is just an outward demonstration etc.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Peter, and I can only assume all the others that were at Pentecost, believed that the Holy Ghost was supposed to come after the baptism. Acts 11:1-18 helps to further explain what I am talking about. I believe Peter reiterates the story again later too. It is the only time in scripture where you can find people that received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized in water. Paul runs into some people that said that they knew John's baptism and Paul still baptized them before he laid hands on them for them to receive the Holy Ghost. To me, this is very similar to the argument that the thief on the cross didn't receive the water baptism before being allowed into Heaven, and he is the only person that you can find anywhere in scripture that you could lay some doubt on about the baptism including much of the Old Testament people, apparently. If some of you do not want to be baptized or don't believe in it then you definitely should not do it, I don't mind, do what you will. I'm just showing what I see in scripture.
Yes, Cornelius and his men were chosen by God and received the Holy Ghost while they were listening to Peter talk--notice it doesn't even mention anything about them believing what they were hearing or anything either.
I still want to see scripture and/or explanation to why so many people say that baptism is just an outward demonstration etc.
Stickz
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Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; I find it interesting how Peter and those with him recognized the Holy Ghost when it was given to the Gentiles too.
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Peter was the perfect person for God to reveal this to too.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. I find it interesting that he is saying that they believe they will be saved, not are saved.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; I find it interesting how Peter and those with him recognized the Holy Ghost when it was given to the Gentiles too.
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Peter was the perfect person for God to reveal this to too.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. I find it interesting that he is saying that they believe they will be saved, not are saved.
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I am aware that many Pentecostals and Evangelicals believe this, but I would be interested in scripture that supports this.
Also almost everyone I know that supports this believes that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit. Do you believe this also?
Acts 10:6. He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: ( he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do )
Acts 10:33. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are ( commanded thee of God )
Acts 10:48. And he ( commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord) Then prayed they him to tarry certain days .
Now who do you suppose the commandment was , Peter's or was it a commandment of the Lord?
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever ( I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
Acts 10:33. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are ( commanded thee of God )
Acts 10:48. And he ( commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord) Then prayed they him to tarry certain days .
Now who do you suppose the commandment was , Peter's or was it a commandment of the Lord?
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever ( I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
I do not believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved or baptized in the Holy Spirit. I do believe the Bible gives several examples of people speaking in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit.
So you do believe Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before water baptism? If it is possible for him...it is possible for others!
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Why?
There were apparently a lot more languages spoken in that area of the world and tongues were probably a very beneficial gift to have back then.
