Then what was/is God's will concerning man and Eden?
Were Adam & Eve meant to live in the Garden of Eden....
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Then what was/is God's will concerning man and Eden?
Jaareshiah
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The expression "Garden of Eden" is found only in Genesis ( 3 times) and Ezekiel (once), with the word "Eden" being first mentioned at Genesis 2:8. God purposed that "man"(Hebrew "Adam" meaning literally "earthling man") enjoy life to the fullest and thus prepared the earth over a course of six "creative" days (with each day approximately 7000 years, see Heb 4:1-11) for his everlasting enjoyment.
As far as God naming Eden, the Bible does not say, but the region was most likely named by individuals, just as the four rivers that "became, as it were four heads," at Genesis 2:10-14. However, God had this information written down "for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16)
Had Adam and Eve obeyed God's command to not eat from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" (Gen 2:9), then they would have fulfilled God's first command to them, in which Genesis 1:28 says: "Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”
Thus, with the Garden of Eden ("Eden" meaning "pleasure") as a pattern, Adam, Eve, and their offspring would have extended the boundaries of the Garden of Eden to the ends of the earth, ' subduing it'. Outside the Garden of Eden, there were "thorns and thistles".(Gen 3:18) The statement that the garden was “in Eden, toward the east,” apparently indicates that the garden occupied only a portion of the region called Eden. (Gen 2:8) However, the garden is thereafter called “the garden of Eden” (Gen 2:15) and, in later texts, is spoken of as “Eden, the garden of God” (Eze 28:13), and as “the garden of Jehovah.”(Gen 13:10; Isa 51:3)
The Greek Septuagint rendered the Hebrew word for “garden” (gan) by the Greek word pa·ra´dei·sos. To this fact we owe our association of the English word “paradise” with the garden of Eden. The cultivation and care of the garden was man’s work assignment. Eden’s trees and plants included all those providing scenic beauty as well as those providing food in wide variety. (Gen 2:9, 15) This fact alone would indicate that the garden covered an area of considerable size.
Everlasting life was contingent upon listenting to Jehovah God. Hence, Adam and Eve were to strictly obey all of God's commands, even though seemingly simple. As Jesus said to Satan: "It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’”(Matt 4:4) Had this been done by Adam, then the far reaching effects of sin, as a result of eating from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", would not be affecting all of mankind down to this day, leading to death.(Rom 5:12)
There therefore arose the need for a redeemer, a ransomer, one equal to Adam in every respect when he was perfect. The apostle Paul wrote that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom (Greek, an·ti´ly·tron (from an·ti´, “against; in correspondence to; in place of,” and ly´tron, “ransom [price paid]”) for all."(1 Tim 2:5, 6)
Paul used the Greek word an·ti´ly·tron that is found only once in the Bible, meaning "corresponding ransom". Thus, Jesus corresponded exactly to Adam before his defection - a perfect man - no more, no less, and hence Jesus was not God. Jesus bought back the hope of life that God had originally purposed for his creation of mankind, life on a paradise earth forever. Jesus said: "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."(Matt 5:5, King James Bible) And David was inspired to write: "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."(Ps 37:29, King James Bible)
Excuse me, Jaareshiah, but there's a tremendous amount of glaringly incorrect human speculation given in your post as if it's all Bible fact. It's not, and it isn't at all supported by Scripture. It's fabrication and heresy!
Nothing in Hebrews 4:1-11 even vaguely implies a 42,000 year creation, nor does anything else in the Bible. The word 'day' as used in Genesis 1:5 & following verses is 'yowm' from an ancient root word meaning 'hot' or 'day', implying sunlight. God's Word uses a word dependent on sunlight even before the sun is created, because He knew what He was creating. Yowm has no reference to 7,000 years, nor years, nor 7,000. It has a direct reference to what God called it and why: 'Day' and 'Night' which is obviously a description of those things of our solar system, which He was creating. The fact that God could do such stupendous and magnificent things in only one day, and have His description of it not believed literally, is not God's problem at all: it's a man's personal problem with God!
As for Eden "...most likely...." being named by individuals: not Scriptural. Genesis 2:8 Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, or 'pleasant place'. One must first establish a frame of reference: east of what? It's location is known to some general extent by the rivers named, some of which are identified today. As God was the only One around, it is apparent that He had named Eden as that, before Adam was created.
Adam is first mentioned by name at Genesis 2:19, so it was God who named him. Eve was named by Adam, Genesis 3:20 & Adam named all the creatures.
It does not say at Genesis 3:18 that outside the garden were thorns & thistles, but rather that this would result from Adam's tillage. The thorns & thistles resulted from the change in the nature of the physical world caused by the fall, as a penalty for sin. No more of 'pleasantness' now!
Yes, Paradise, and surely you're right about considerable size: but its measure is given by the borders defined by the rivers, some of which are known today.
I agree on the requirement of following every word/command from the mouth of God, but of course Adam & Eve hadn't heard the rest of Scripture & there were no other commands spoken to be heard. Their existence was based on the simplest of things: "Have a WONDERFUL TIME, children! Just stay away from that one tree...." What came about, from within man & woman themselves in their physical thinking intellect, not from God: SELF! All God wanted was an intimate loving relationship with them as they enjoyed the same with each other. The simplicity of love is to lose self into another's being. They would not!
To say that Jesus was not God is to throw away the entirety of Scripture! All of your word studies & diligence has returned you a net zero, as you failed to comprehend or believe the most basic of all precepts taught in Scripture: Father, Son, Spirit, One Entity of God in three Beings and the Son Jesus Christ being submissive & humble, God then born of a woman, to become the propitiation for sin. Would you next say that Joseph was the father of Jesus???
By your confusion, taught you by others, you as yourself could have just as well been the eternal sacrifice for sin, since you're equal to this 'only a man' Jesus? Make you yourself equal to God? If this failed logic & ignorance of Scripture was true: why wouldn't the propitiation for sin have come when Adam died? Why not when the first man died on the first cross?
Somebody stole from you, and you haven't recovered it yet, but I pray you will! Throw away their undivine guidance and their books of instruction and read what the Word of God says all by itself, without their wretched additions & subtractions and lies, and pray God to show you TRUTH!
JDFree
Nothing in Hebrews 4:1-11 even vaguely implies a 42,000 year creation, nor does anything else in the Bible. The word 'day' as used in Genesis 1:5 & following verses is 'yowm' from an ancient root word meaning 'hot' or 'day', implying sunlight. God's Word uses a word dependent on sunlight even before the sun is created, because He knew what He was creating. Yowm has no reference to 7,000 years, nor years, nor 7,000. It has a direct reference to what God called it and why: 'Day' and 'Night' which is obviously a description of those things of our solar system, which He was creating. The fact that God could do such stupendous and magnificent things in only one day, and have His description of it not believed literally, is not God's problem at all: it's a man's personal problem with God!
As for Eden "...most likely...." being named by individuals: not Scriptural. Genesis 2:8 Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, or 'pleasant place'. One must first establish a frame of reference: east of what? It's location is known to some general extent by the rivers named, some of which are identified today. As God was the only One around, it is apparent that He had named Eden as that, before Adam was created.
Adam is first mentioned by name at Genesis 2:19, so it was God who named him. Eve was named by Adam, Genesis 3:20 & Adam named all the creatures.
It does not say at Genesis 3:18 that outside the garden were thorns & thistles, but rather that this would result from Adam's tillage. The thorns & thistles resulted from the change in the nature of the physical world caused by the fall, as a penalty for sin. No more of 'pleasantness' now!
Yes, Paradise, and surely you're right about considerable size: but its measure is given by the borders defined by the rivers, some of which are known today.
I agree on the requirement of following every word/command from the mouth of God, but of course Adam & Eve hadn't heard the rest of Scripture & there were no other commands spoken to be heard. Their existence was based on the simplest of things: "Have a WONDERFUL TIME, children! Just stay away from that one tree...." What came about, from within man & woman themselves in their physical thinking intellect, not from God: SELF! All God wanted was an intimate loving relationship with them as they enjoyed the same with each other. The simplicity of love is to lose self into another's being. They would not!
To say that Jesus was not God is to throw away the entirety of Scripture! All of your word studies & diligence has returned you a net zero, as you failed to comprehend or believe the most basic of all precepts taught in Scripture: Father, Son, Spirit, One Entity of God in three Beings and the Son Jesus Christ being submissive & humble, God then born of a woman, to become the propitiation for sin. Would you next say that Joseph was the father of Jesus???
By your confusion, taught you by others, you as yourself could have just as well been the eternal sacrifice for sin, since you're equal to this 'only a man' Jesus? Make you yourself equal to God? If this failed logic & ignorance of Scripture was true: why wouldn't the propitiation for sin have come when Adam died? Why not when the first man died on the first cross?
Somebody stole from you, and you haven't recovered it yet, but I pray you will! Throw away their undivine guidance and their books of instruction and read what the Word of God says all by itself, without their wretched additions & subtractions and lies, and pray God to show you TRUTH!
JDFree
Jaarishiah, you'd do best to read a very scary Word pointed in your direction, and flying your way at the speed of Light! Revelations 22:18-20,
"For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book."
Somebody is talking to you: best listen!
"For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book."
Somebody is talking to you: best listen!
Absolutely not. God knew they would fall as part of His plan for redemption. Christ was chosen as the Redeemer before Man was ever created, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. The garden was planted east of Eden - an already established city before the garden was prepared on the east side for Adam & Eve. That is why it is called the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:8-10.
Hey, Doc,
I'd day that's somewhat correct, except for Eden being 'an already established city'. If that were so it would require already established citizens of that city, which cannot be so if Adam and then Eve are the first 2 human beings made of God. Also as this relates even to the first day of life of Adam & Eve, in the garden of Eden, neither could they have made a city of Eden. Eden is given as geographical location, with a name added so we know what it refers to for further identification.
Provision was made, that if Adam & Eve did not sin, they would live forever and populate the earth with their children who would live forever. Because God knew they would sin & fall into selfishness He had already appointed that Jesus would be the Propitiation or Perfect & COMPLETE Sacrifice for that sin in another day.
When God made garments of skins to cover Adam & Eve, God demonstrated the first sacrifice, first animal sacrifice, in the history of the world; made for covering of sin, but not for salvation from its consequences. Blood was poured out from the life of that animal for the sin of Adam & Eve.
The entire world needed to be populated so someone at some point would have had to leave the garden. Adam & Eve would have been able to enjoy all the lands and the garden if they hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit. Since they ate it without permission, they still had the whole world to enjoy with the exception of the garden.
Liken this to living in a mansion. Imagine that one room of the mansion is more extravagent than the rest. You have access to all the rooms of the mansion. Suppose you did something you weren't suppose to and as a punishment the owner of the mansion locks you out of that extravagent room. You still have access to the whole mansion with the exception of that particular room.
Eden was a country; not the name of the garden. The garden was located inside Eden. Not sure where the name Eden came though but its name means paradise.
The book What You Don't Understand Can Hurt You by K. Miles addresses many details behind Adam & Eve, the purposes of the forbidden fruit, and even why God chose to create all of humanity from one man (Adam). It's very fascinating and if you have an interest in this sort of stuff related to the garden, Adam & Eve, and the first couple of chapters of Genesis then I HIGHLY recommend reading it!
Liken this to living in a mansion. Imagine that one room of the mansion is more extravagent than the rest. You have access to all the rooms of the mansion. Suppose you did something you weren't suppose to and as a punishment the owner of the mansion locks you out of that extravagent room. You still have access to the whole mansion with the exception of that particular room.
Eden was a country; not the name of the garden. The garden was located inside Eden. Not sure where the name Eden came though but its name means paradise.
The book What You Don't Understand Can Hurt You by K. Miles addresses many details behind Adam & Eve, the purposes of the forbidden fruit, and even why God chose to create all of humanity from one man (Adam). It's very fascinating and if you have an interest in this sort of stuff related to the garden, Adam & Eve, and the first couple of chapters of Genesis then I HIGHLY recommend reading it!
Well, with all due respect, Adam and Eve may have been the first HUMANS to populate the earth - and I say MAY - but they certainly were not the first BEINGS to populate the earth. However, I will not get into that at this time as it will require more time right now than I am able to dedicate.
But you might want to STUDY CLOSELY Genesis chapter 3, just for a start. You might start by considering WHO the serpent of Genesis 3:1 actually was. Don't say the devil, unless you can prove it with scripture. You might explain WHO the US is in Genesis 3:22. You might also want to explain how it was that by partaking of the "forbidden fruit" man became "like one of US" - verse 22. I thought the FALL caused man to be UNLIKE God, not LIKE God.
This is just a fragment for you to begin to ponder. Like I said, now is not the right time for me to get into this in detail - but I pray you have some food for thought. Blessings.
Aside from animals created first, Adam was the first human, and Eve the second human, ever created. There is not one word in Scripture that specifically states or even suggests that 'other BEINGS' populated earth in any way, or pre-dated Adam & Eve, or anything similar.
I already know who the serpent was, the chief devil Satan: because Scripture tells me! Revelation 12:9.
Who the 'Us' is? Well let's see, "The Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:...."
Therefore "The Lord God..." would be the Lord God: and the 'Us' mentioned: as an Entity comprised of Father, Son and Holy Spirt, the 3 Beings that are the Entity of One God! God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit: as the One True & Living Lord God Almighty.
By the way, I began to ponder this about 20 years ago, and once it was made imminently clear by studying the WHOLE of Scripture with diligence, carefully dividing the Word of Truth, all was revealed far beyond this elementary question. For a fact, Genesis was the subject of my closest scrutiny for a few years, as I read ALL in submission before my Lord God, that He might reveal. He did.
Fascinating stuff, so I heartily suggest you do the same, of studying Scripture from cover to cover, every Word of the Word, to know the Truth, because 'The Truth will make you free!'
JDFree <> Free, get it?
Thay partook of what was forbidden because they were tempted.......they yeilded to the temptation brought by the master of the art of temptation. 'The Serpent,the Devil,and Satan'
God "placed" them there at the onset of human life.
The word 'Eden' seems to mean a delightful residence. I am sure it was. This si just like Jesus. He gives every opportunity for us to be blessed but somehow we make a mess, thinking we know better.
Stay blessed
If it makes you feel better about yourself to talk down to someone you don't even know the credential of, help yourself.
Now to the matter at hand. Do you find there to be only ONE SERPENT in the Bible? When Jesus said, "Be wise as a SERPENT... (emphasis mine) His instruction was to be as wise as the DEVIL? What do you think?
It is indeed unfortunate that you have spent so much time studying the Bible and Book of Genesis and have overlooked the glaring differences between the two accounts of the creation of man - Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:7-25. What do you suppose that all means? After all your study, have you ever noticed that before?
And, in classic form, YOU didn't answer the question regarding verse 22 of Genesis 3. HOW DID THE FALL MAKE MAN LIKE GOD? And for your further study, you might note that the TRINITY IS NOWHERE FOUND IN GENESIS 3, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK OF GENESIS, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT. That's a teaching for the Sunday School children. PROVE WITH SCRIPTURE "US" IS THE TRINITY IN VERSE 22!
It's never wise to pretend you can run with the horsemen when you can't even keep up with the footmen.
Doc, please read following post after this one before you reply, thanks!
No, sir, not talking down to YOU as a person! I answered erroneous teaching that's not Scripturally based. All that we have, to know the True and Living God by, is His Word: and that is sufficient. All the rest of doctrine of men has no merit at all unless it emphasizes exactly what Scripture says.
Where someone has a confusion on interpretation, no problem; brothers & sisters in Christ help to straighten it out in loving kindness. Where a person has instead manufactured something spurious, dangerous, deceitful and deadly out of imagination and presents it like it is factual according to the Word of God, I set aside politeness!
Now to the matter at hand. Do you find there to be only ONE SERPENT in the Bible? When Jesus said, "Be wise as a SERPENT... (emphasis mine) His instruction was to be as wise as the DEVIL? What do you think?
I already answered the original point, of where the serpent in the garden is identified. That answers 'the matter at hand'. Now you change horses to ride in a different direction? To further add confusion? Revelation 12:9 gives us, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." followed by, "And I heard a loud voice saying, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of the brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Revelation 12:10-11
I find many serpents mentioned in Scripture, from Satan first, to those in Egypt who bit the Israelites, to the healing serpent on the staff raised up by Moses, to the serpents in Pharoah's court as staffs were cast down, serpent mentioned in Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Micah, and the New Testament in Matthew, Luke, John, 2Corinthians, etc. which have absolutely nothing to do with the question first presented. 2Corinthians 11 is most appropriate to this present and different question, very directly and pointedly. Note that Eve was 'deceived' and Adam with her, and only the serpent Satan is referred to as 'the deceiver' or 'great deceiver'.
It is indeed unfortunate that you have spent so much time studying the Bible and Book of Genesis and have overlooked the glaring differences between the two accounts of the creation of man - Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:7-25. What do you suppose that all means? After all your study, have you ever noticed that before?
I would hope that anyone who reads that of Genesis could see: the first is a synoptic account, as a summary of events, giving the time frame in which it was accomplished. The next account is of a part of the same events, but in a narrower focus, telling us greater details of that event already mentioned. Like what's his name says, "...and now, the rest of the story..." Between the two I have never found any glaring contradiction. For a fact, I find them to be in complete agreement. So, what pray tell are these "...glaring differences..." that trouble you?
And, in classic form, YOU didn't answer the question regarding verse 22 of Genesis 3. HOW DID THE FALL MAKE MAN LIKE GOD? And for your further study, you might note that the TRINITY IS NOWHERE FOUND IN GENESIS 3, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK OF GENESIS, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT. That's a teaching for the Sunday School children. PROVE WITH SCRIPTURE "US" IS THE TRINITY IN VERSE 22!
I have no idea what 'classic form' you refer to, but I'll make a wild guess the comment adds me to the list of 'one of them' and is derogatory? Where is it given that I am required to answer every single thing in another person's post? Where do you pull that out of? Do you assume some sort of lordship over me? Apparently so, as you COMMAND ME TO PROVE! Well, I answer what I choose to answer, thanks; and this time for the sake of others!
But, to answer that: Prior to Eve & then Adam partaking of this fruit they had been totally innocent, like a 1 month old baby or similar. Absolutely no comprehension of anything even remotely Evil because they had never seen anything Evil, before the serpent Satan appeared. Matter of fact, neither did they have any comprehension of Good, because that knowledge is comparative by comparing to the negative, of 'bad' or Evil'. All they knew in their entire lives was God, the garden of Eden, and each other, all existing in sinless non-evil perfection together, and they had no idea anything but that goodness could exist. It's called naive, and it was nigh Eve before the fall. I'm sure you understand that.
Eve first, then Adam, took of the fruit, the forbidden fruit, and ate. Suddenly they realized they had done Evil, by disobeying God. Further, they were overwhelmed with guilt and grief and conscience, which conscience had never existed in them before. Their own selfishness, covetousness, disobedience and Evil act now gave them a comparison point, to weigh against the Perfect Goodness of God. They were unlike God before, not being possessed of this dark knowledge. God was possessed of this dark knowledge of what constitutes selfish Evil, by the prior actions of Satan and other fallen devils. The angels who did not fall only knew Evil by observation, not experience. Satan became Evil, unlike God. That leaves God alone as the One who would have such a knowledge of Good and Evil, plus an Image and likeness the same as Adam & Eve. The angels did not have an image & likeness unto God. Therefore only Adam & Eve could "...become as one of us, to know good and evil...", being in the same image, and being in the same form [as Jesus in His manifestation as man] and having a rational mind and Free Will to choose, and now: a knowledge of good and evil.
As for the other, of the Trinity being embodied in the words of Genesis 3:22, it is given of God. That is to say, there are those to whom the Scripture is opened and revealed, and there are others to whom it is not. May have something to do with attitude, but as it is written it is "...foolishness to them that perish." This thing of the Trinity is of course debated, as you apparently know, and I'll guess again, that you're armed for a non-trinitarian-God debate. Regardless, the Trinity of God is first found hidden in Genesis, but deeply within, in Chapter 1, verses 1-5. Verse 2 states: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the Face of the Waters, and God said, Let there be Light, and there was Light."
The first verse says, "In the beginning, God..." because in reference to this creation event, that's all there was: GOD! In other words, devils weren't invited and did not neccessarily even witness this: Just God. Then we are first shown the Spirit of God, as a part of the Entity of One God. He the Spirit moves upon the 'Face of the Waters'. This is the 'Face of the Deep', and it is a reference to Jesus Christ. He alone is the 'Face of God', the One in whose Image we are made, and the only Face of God which we may gaze upon; and the Waters are His Living Waters which He may give us to drink of: whereby we may have Eternal Life in Him: and the Face of the Waters, Jesus, is also the Doorway to Eternal Life. And we would know that the Living Waters and to partake of the Living Waters is to partake of the substance of God. Thirdly, and separately from another viewpoint within the action, God says, "Let there be Light; and there was Light." This is God the Father, overlooking these things of His Will, and He states His Will, and Jesus and Spirit are obedient in it, because they are One God. The Light then is a further reference to Jesus Christ, the Light of this world, and the Light of God's Love, and the Light of men. This is the point where Jesus as the Light of the world enters His creation. Therefore, sir, we have the first reference to the magnificent Trinity of God, given in the very first event of creation of the universe and all that in it is. It's right up front, right square in our faces, in the first verses of God's Perfect Word, for those to whom it is given; and may they be blessed in it for all of eternity in Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and His Holy Spirit, our Holy True and Living Lord God Almighty!
See: Luke 1:76, 9:51-56, 10:1, 1Cor 13:12, 2Cor 4:6, 1Pete 3:12, Rev 20:11
It's never wise to pretend you can run with the horsemen when you can't even keep up with the footmen.
I do not run with horsemen, or footmen. I REST in the REST of God's Peace in Love in the Pure Light, drinking in the Living Waters of His Precious Son, my Lord Jesus Christ the Light of my Life and the very Face of God. Amen.
JDFree C
No, sir, not talking down to YOU as a person! I answered erroneous teaching that's not Scripturally based. All that we have, to know the True and Living God by, is His Word: and that is sufficient. All the rest of doctrine of men has no merit at all unless it emphasizes exactly what Scripture says.
Where someone has a confusion on interpretation, no problem; brothers & sisters in Christ help to straighten it out in loving kindness. Where a person has instead manufactured something spurious, dangerous, deceitful and deadly out of imagination and presents it like it is factual according to the Word of God, I set aside politeness!
Now to the matter at hand. Do you find there to be only ONE SERPENT in the Bible? When Jesus said, "Be wise as a SERPENT... (emphasis mine) His instruction was to be as wise as the DEVIL? What do you think?
I already answered the original point, of where the serpent in the garden is identified. That answers 'the matter at hand'. Now you change horses to ride in a different direction? To further add confusion? Revelation 12:9 gives us, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." followed by, "And I heard a loud voice saying, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of the brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Revelation 12:10-11
I find many serpents mentioned in Scripture, from Satan first, to those in Egypt who bit the Israelites, to the healing serpent on the staff raised up by Moses, to the serpents in Pharoah's court as staffs were cast down, serpent mentioned in Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Micah, and the New Testament in Matthew, Luke, John, 2Corinthians, etc. which have absolutely nothing to do with the question first presented. 2Corinthians 11 is most appropriate to this present and different question, very directly and pointedly. Note that Eve was 'deceived' and Adam with her, and only the serpent Satan is referred to as 'the deceiver' or 'great deceiver'.
It is indeed unfortunate that you have spent so much time studying the Bible and Book of Genesis and have overlooked the glaring differences between the two accounts of the creation of man - Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:7-25. What do you suppose that all means? After all your study, have you ever noticed that before?
I would hope that anyone who reads that of Genesis could see: the first is a synoptic account, as a summary of events, giving the time frame in which it was accomplished. The next account is of a part of the same events, but in a narrower focus, telling us greater details of that event already mentioned. Like what's his name says, "...and now, the rest of the story..." Between the two I have never found any glaring contradiction. For a fact, I find them to be in complete agreement. So, what pray tell are these "...glaring differences..." that trouble you?
And, in classic form, YOU didn't answer the question regarding verse 22 of Genesis 3. HOW DID THE FALL MAKE MAN LIKE GOD? And for your further study, you might note that the TRINITY IS NOWHERE FOUND IN GENESIS 3, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK OF GENESIS, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT. That's a teaching for the Sunday School children. PROVE WITH SCRIPTURE "US" IS THE TRINITY IN VERSE 22!
I have no idea what 'classic form' you refer to, but I'll make a wild guess the comment adds me to the list of 'one of them' and is derogatory? Where is it given that I am required to answer every single thing in another person's post? Where do you pull that out of? Do you assume some sort of lordship over me? Apparently so, as you COMMAND ME TO PROVE! Well, I answer what I choose to answer, thanks; and this time for the sake of others!
But, to answer that: Prior to Eve & then Adam partaking of this fruit they had been totally innocent, like a 1 month old baby or similar. Absolutely no comprehension of anything even remotely Evil because they had never seen anything Evil, before the serpent Satan appeared. Matter of fact, neither did they have any comprehension of Good, because that knowledge is comparative by comparing to the negative, of 'bad' or Evil'. All they knew in their entire lives was God, the garden of Eden, and each other, all existing in sinless non-evil perfection together, and they had no idea anything but that goodness could exist. It's called naive, and it was nigh Eve before the fall. I'm sure you understand that.
Eve first, then Adam, took of the fruit, the forbidden fruit, and ate. Suddenly they realized they had done Evil, by disobeying God. Further, they were overwhelmed with guilt and grief and conscience, which conscience had never existed in them before. Their own selfishness, covetousness, disobedience and Evil act now gave them a comparison point, to weigh against the Perfect Goodness of God. They were unlike God before, not being possessed of this dark knowledge. God was possessed of this dark knowledge of what constitutes selfish Evil, by the prior actions of Satan and other fallen devils. The angels who did not fall only knew Evil by observation, not experience. Satan became Evil, unlike God. That leaves God alone as the One who would have such a knowledge of Good and Evil, plus an Image and likeness the same as Adam & Eve. The angels did not have an image & likeness unto God. Therefore only Adam & Eve could "...become as one of us, to know good and evil...", being in the same image, and being in the same form [as Jesus in His manifestation as man] and having a rational mind and Free Will to choose, and now: a knowledge of good and evil.
As for the other, of the Trinity being embodied in the words of Genesis 3:22, it is given of God. That is to say, there are those to whom the Scripture is opened and revealed, and there are others to whom it is not. May have something to do with attitude, but as it is written it is "...foolishness to them that perish." This thing of the Trinity is of course debated, as you apparently know, and I'll guess again, that you're armed for a non-trinitarian-God debate. Regardless, the Trinity of God is first found hidden in Genesis, but deeply within, in Chapter 1, verses 1-5. Verse 2 states: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the Face of the Waters, and God said, Let there be Light, and there was Light."
The first verse says, "In the beginning, God..." because in reference to this creation event, that's all there was: GOD! In other words, devils weren't invited and did not neccessarily even witness this: Just God. Then we are first shown the Spirit of God, as a part of the Entity of One God. He the Spirit moves upon the 'Face of the Waters'. This is the 'Face of the Deep', and it is a reference to Jesus Christ. He alone is the 'Face of God', the One in whose Image we are made, and the only Face of God which we may gaze upon; and the Waters are His Living Waters which He may give us to drink of: whereby we may have Eternal Life in Him: and the Face of the Waters, Jesus, is also the Doorway to Eternal Life. And we would know that the Living Waters and to partake of the Living Waters is to partake of the substance of God. Thirdly, and separately from another viewpoint within the action, God says, "Let there be Light; and there was Light." This is God the Father, overlooking these things of His Will, and He states His Will, and Jesus and Spirit are obedient in it, because they are One God. The Light then is a further reference to Jesus Christ, the Light of this world, and the Light of God's Love, and the Light of men. This is the point where Jesus as the Light of the world enters His creation. Therefore, sir, we have the first reference to the magnificent Trinity of God, given in the very first event of creation of the universe and all that in it is. It's right up front, right square in our faces, in the first verses of God's Perfect Word, for those to whom it is given; and may they be blessed in it for all of eternity in Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and His Holy Spirit, our Holy True and Living Lord God Almighty!
See: Luke 1:76, 9:51-56, 10:1, 1Cor 13:12, 2Cor 4:6, 1Pete 3:12, Rev 20:11
It's never wise to pretend you can run with the horsemen when you can't even keep up with the footmen.
I do not run with horsemen, or footmen. I REST in the REST of God's Peace in Love in the Pure Light, drinking in the Living Waters of His Precious Son, my Lord Jesus Christ the Light of my Life and the very Face of God. Amen.
JDFree C
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Hey, Doc!
I may owe some [but not all ha-ha] apology! I think I got confused in my replies somewhat, but I'm not even sure. I had been jumping back & forth between threads & posts, and had just answered Jaareshiah, when he said Jesus was not God, creation days were 7,000 years & various apostacy etc. When I replied to you one time, don't know which, I may have confused you with him, God forbid, to whom I give no apology!
But, I do extend my apology to you as I may have gotten confused. Now maybe we can proceed civilly in tearing the flesh off each other's bones from a right perspective....
Editing this too! I just read your profile and see for a fact you're one of those sick wacko Christians! That's always good to see, brother! I was in error!
Thanks....
I may owe some [but not all ha-ha] apology! I think I got confused in my replies somewhat, but I'm not even sure. I had been jumping back & forth between threads & posts, and had just answered Jaareshiah, when he said Jesus was not God, creation days were 7,000 years & various apostacy etc. When I replied to you one time, don't know which, I may have confused you with him, God forbid, to whom I give no apology!
But, I do extend my apology to you as I may have gotten confused. Now maybe we can proceed civilly in tearing the flesh off each other's bones from a right perspective....
Editing this too! I just read your profile and see for a fact you're one of those sick wacko Christians! That's always good to see, brother! I was in error!
Thanks....
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SpiritLedEd
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I think He wanted them to stay there, but they had the power of choice.
There's no scriptural evidence that I know of that says God gave the garden that name. Since Eden is a Hebrew word for Paradise, the name was probably given by Moses, who is believed to be the author of Genesis.
SLE
Hekuran
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I'd follow the approach that Jiggyfly suggests. The garden that God created was the centre of blessing and perfection, and man's relationship with God. God created the whole of creation good, so it would seem odd if people were not free to know the rest of God's work in the world.
The point is, that after sin entered the world Adam and Eve were not able to enter the garden, not that before they could not leave.
The point is, that after sin entered the world Adam and Eve were not able to enter the garden, not that before they could not leave.
Interesting thought regarding Moses, SLE. Then again, I see that God gave it to Adam to name all the animals, and I think named his wife Eve? So it sorta seems likely to me, though not solidly based in Scripture at all: just likely that Adam himself named Eden?
Interesting thought too: that all language originated in Adam, in the garden of Eden, after God spoke to him. As we see the gene pool diluted into nearly unrecognizable, it's a heavy thought looking backwards, to imagine what Adam's intellect must have been, as the whole of the gene pool that all would come after in the future?
JD, I will begin by saying that I accept your apology, such as it is. I certainly understand taking a passionate position for what one believes. However, I also understand that what is one man’s “heresy” is another man’s “faith.” Many of Jesus’ day thought Him to be a heretic because His doctrine didn’t line up with the party line. The same can be said of Martin Luther. And many others. Little has changed today. Sometimes when men mature in the faith they begin to realize that what they once discounted as error they grow to understand is truth. When a man hasn’t learned the need to question what he has been taught, he actually has learned very little of anything. Wisdom prevailing, it is always better to refrain from playing the heresy card, and feeling empowered to attack another believer until you know you have ALL OF THE FACTS AND DATA TO COME TO A SPIRIT LED CONCLUSION. At the age of 64, and having studied “Christianity” all of my life from age 7 and up, I find few folks really have a clue about WHAT IS REALLY TRUE.
JD, I do understand your reluctance to answer some of my questions. The enigma for me is if we aren’t going to answer one another’s questions, what is the point in the dialogue to begin with? But I’ll persevere onward.
It appears I may have confused you regarding my questions on the SERPENT - another unanswered question - other than to admit that the term serpent shows up in a number of places in scripture. What you didn’t answer was this: WHEN JESUS SAID TO BE WISE AS A SERPENT… WAS HIS INSTRUCTION TO BE AS WISE AS SATAN? You didn’t answer that JD, and I certainly understand you don’t have to.
The other potential error in your apparent method of interpretation of scripture - I assume you use the Analogy of Faith principle? - is that for some reason you have decided that the serpent in Genesis 3:1 is a cross reference to the serpent in Revelation 12:9. And that’s because WHY? This a common error when people try to prove points pulling a number of verses together out of context and historical setting to teach a certain position. People do this kind of thing all the time with the two white horse riders in the Book of Revelation, as well as hundreds of other Biblical topics.
Now, I will be brief, but let’s look closely at the Hebrew word for serpent in Genesis 3:1. It is “Nachash” which means a number of things such as a hissing creature - a serpent - a snake - the constellation of the dragon as in Job 26:13 - but also has a positive understanding, as you mentioned, including healing from the bite of a venomous snake when looking at the bronze serpent - a likeness to Jesus Christ providing healing as in John 3:14 and John 12:32 - and the serpent on the pole has been used extensively throughout the medical profession as a symbol of healing. So, upon what basis do you find your conclusion that the serpent of Genesis 3 is the devil of Revelation 12? What someone taught you? The cross references in your study bible? Your study bible notes? Your personal opinion? The statement of faith for your denomination? You catechism? WHAT?
So to summarize, my two questions are: (1) What SERPENT was Jesus referring to when He told us to be WISE AS SERPENTS and (2) on what basis have you decided that the SERPENT of Genesis 3:1 is the SERPENT of Revelation 12:9?
Now, the matter of Genesis 3:22. I’m not sure if this part of my question you also wish to not answer, but I’ll ask just for clarification. WHY DID ADAM AND EVE NEED TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF EVIL TO BE LIKE GOD? Additionally, if it was God’s plan to keep Adam and Eve from evil, why did He allow the serpent (your devil) to present himself to them? I mean God placed Cherubim at the gates of the Garden to prevent man from re-entering, why didn’t He keep the serpent out of the Garden if he were the purveyor EVIL? Could GOD not stop him? Or, did God want him there?
Now for the sake of the economy of time, let’s just take a brief look at the differences between the two accounts of creation. REMEMBER, your laws of logic JD. One of the first laws of logic is TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME. The idea that one account is a more narrow view and the second is a broader view may be interesting for 3rd grade Sunday School class, but let’s see if it is really founded.
Genesis 1:26 - MAN was made in the likeness of God (Adam and Eve were not - they were not like God until later - Genesis 3:22) TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.
Genesis 1:26 - MAN was created to have dominion over all the earth and over every living creature - NOT SO in Genesis 2:15, where Adam is a gardener, a laborer if you will. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.
Genesis 1:27 - God CREATED MAN - Hebrew “Bara” which means to bring into existence or initiate - NOT SO in Genesis 2:7, where God FORMED MAN - Hebrew “Yatsar” which means to squeeze into shape like a potter does a vessel of clay working with material already created. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.
In Genesis 1:27 - God created MAN male & female - NOT SO in Genesis 2, as man was formed in verse 7 and woman was formed in verse 22. Actually the Hebrew word for MADE in verse 22 is “Banah” which means to build or re-build, not to bring out of nothing. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.
In Genesis 2:16 the Lord commanded the MAN not to eat of the tree…BUT in Genesis 1:27 God said to THEM (man and woman) they were to have dominion and could eat EVERYTHING with no restrictions! TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.
In Genesis 2:18 MAN is alone, and in Genesis 1:27 man is with his wife and is receiving instruction and talking TOGETHER with God. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.
This should suffice for the time being.
By the way, none of this troubles me, I find the BIBLE TO BE THE MOST FASCINATING BOOK ON EARTH!
Doc
Jaareshiah
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Many feel that the word "day" (Hebrew yohm; Greek, he·me´ra ) applies only to a "day" of 24 hours and has an unused root meaning of "hot". However, the usage of the word "day" extends far beyond that and is used in a literal and in a figurative or even symbolic sense. That the word "day" means more than just the time during sunlight (a solar day) is easily apparent from Genesis 2:4, which the six "creative" days are seen as one "day": "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day (Hebrew yohm ) that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."
In the very account of creation we have “day” used to refer to three different periods of time. “Day” is used to refer to the daylight hours, as when we read: “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” It is used to refer to both day and night, as when we read: “There came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.” And “day” is also used to refer to the entire time period involved in creation of the heavens and the earth: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”(Gen. 1:5; 2:4)
Jesus used the word "day" to express a future time period, not just "during sunlight" or a solar day, for he said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ "(Matt 7:21, 22)
However, regarding the meaning of a "creative" day, the Genesis account helps one to see that it is far more than just a solar day of 24 hours. Genesis 2:2, 3 says that "by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making."
The expression "proceeded to rest "( Hebrew verb , wai·yish·both´), is in the imperfect state denoting incomplete or continuous action, or action in progress. Hence, the seventh day was incomplete at the time of Moses writing down the book of Genesis in 1513 B.C.E. The seventh day was still in progress. The apostle Paul brought to our attention that it was still in progress, incomplete, in his "day", when he wrote the book of Hebrews in about 61 C.E., for he wrote to the Hebrews Christians: "Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into his rest, let us fear that sometime someone of you may seem to have fallen short of it....For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest....For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works (at Genesis 2:2),” and again in this place: “They shall not enter into my rest (at Ps 95:11).”(Heb 4:1, 3-5)
Thus, even down to the apostle Paul's time, some 4000 years after the creation of Adam, God's seventh "day" was still ongoing, incomplete, with "action in progress," with true Christians able to "enter into his (God's) rest". God's "rest day" will be concluded at the end of Christ's Millennium reign, that will begin in the near future, for the purpose of restoring the earth to its original paradisaic conditions as in the Garden of Eden. Hence, each "creative " day was approximately 7000 years long.
And concerning the name of Eden, the Bible does not specify just where the name came from, for when Moses wrote down the Genesis account in 1513 B.C.E., over 2500 years had passed since the creation of Adam in 4026 B.C.E. Though the word "king" is used by God (first seen at Gen 14:1), this title originated with humans. The issue is not where the name Eden originated, but the issue that arose therein, the challenge that Satan made regarding Jehovah's right to rule, or universal sovereignty, calling it into question.(Gen 3:1-6; Job 1:9-11, 2:4, 5)
Because of God cursing the ground following Adam's rebellion and subsequently both Adam and Eve being put out of the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:24), the ground did produce "thorns and thistles".(Gen 3:17) The Garden of Eden was a pattern that God provided for Adam and even and their offspring to make the rest of the earth as such. And the expression that Jehovah God "planted a garden, toward the east, " has to be seen through the eyes of Moses, as the writer of Genesis, for from where he wrote it in the "wilderness", possibly from the wilderness of Sinai (Ex 19:1), Eden was eastward.
The belief that "Father, Son, Spirit, One Entity of God in three beings" is not found in the Bible, but this belief in a trinity originated from ancient Babylon (with one such trinity of gods, made up of two gods and a goddess, Sin (the moon-god), Shamash (the sun-god), and Ishtar)
The apostle Paul would not have used the Greek word an·ti´ly·tron (meaning "corresponding ransom") had Jesus been equal to or God. Was it God that sinned ? To whom was Jesus a "corresponding (or equal) ransom" ? Who was Jesus to replace, in order to ransom mankind ? Not God ! Rather, it was Adam that failed in his loyalty to God.
Thus, that is why Paul wrote: "That is why, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned...So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification (through Jesus Christ as a "corresponding ransom") the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life."(Rom 5:12, 18) That is also why Paul wrote that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."(1 Tim 2:5)
