Tradition vs. Truth

[Coconut]

In correlation with the OP, I`m going to toss this in...

How many times when in discussions of scripture have I heard the words, but GODS word is TRUE! Yes, but is our understanding true? This is the crux of the whole matter.

I think this statement written by Paul is very key to why tradition is so strongly upheld, and truth has become a murky word.

Heb 5:12 In fact, though by now you should be teachers, you still need someone to teach you the basic truths of God's word. You have become people who need milk instead of solid food.
Heb 5:13 For everyone who lives on milk is still a baby and is inexperienced in the message of righteousness.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for mature people, whose minds are trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

How is it possible we can miss out on the 'basic truth,' or remain 'inexperienced' or 'untrained', when we sit under preachers, go to bible studies, read enough christian help books to we could hang out a shingle....but it must be possible, or Paul wouldnt have said he had observed such a problem in the 'church'

I am persuaded the answer lies, first, in what, or should I say 'whom' we know. (well glory!)

See, Paul was just the right person to open his mouth here...he was 'raised on a pew' and he would have sworn he knew the TRUTH...but did he? Ah...NO! When he finally got a revelation of Christ, he realized how blinded by "tradition" he really was! I can relate so well to Paul!

Secondly, theres a lot of regurgitated milk being spewed by baby christians. By that I mean, everyone desires to be a teacher, and/or a counselor. Noble aspiration, but do you see how silly it is, for a baby, unable to even feed themselves, attempting to feed others?

Don`t get me wrong here, every born again child of God has a testimony to share, but in the circles where I come from, I see young converts standing in pulpits, (anybody can preach Christ, i`m talking about teaching here) in the sunday school classroom, teaching bible studies, who could`nt possibly have had time to be 'trained by practice' in the way of righteousness. Its akin to a young cadet getting all hepped up to join the marines, and being allowed to without any training...how foolish...no wonder lifes storms finds many of them 'dead in the water'
And even worse, finds many of those they taught just as dead, bogged down in religious muck and mire...and there is no life there.

That brings me to my final point, study involves more than just opening that BOOK, learning to spew scriptures, taking notes on what the preacher said last Sunday, underlining what some famous preacher said in a book...no, if we want to study to show ourselves approved, if we truly want to rightly divide the word (and aint just out to impress others with our knowledge) ...we will train ourselves to SHUT UP and led God do the teaching. (sorry, most effective way I know how to say it) Does scripture not tell us, that the SPIRIT will teach us, the SPIRIT will guide us, the SPIRIT will lead us into all truth? Please dont think because you had an emotional experience last Sunday, talked in tongues, and got blessed by the annointing of the Holy Ghost, it means you got TRUTH all bottled up. Being led of the Spirit requires really seeking Him, and desiring to know Him.

There is no shame in saying, I`m sorry, I cant 'teach' you anything on this subject, because all I know is what the 'church' has taught me, and they could be wrong, I will have to personally ask God to show me the mind of Spirit on this subject first. Of course thats if we arnt ashamed to believe God, cause that usually takes us out of our comfortable zone. You know majority of christian aint really free, they just traded chains, the bondage of sin, for the bondage of religion.

Blessings

 

[rizen1]

Thank you Jiggy,

I agree when everyone say, this thread was needed.

Originally Posted by Word of Life
I have been to a web site called "Truth or Tradition", and I have learnt several things from that site too. But man can fool me, so one has to be extremely cautious, with what one reads, or one can be burnt

I love that site, I'm a member.
I thank God for the truth that was revealed, because I'd still be under a wolf in sheep clothing.

 

[aksd]

Hello jiggyfly,
Would just like a clarification - are you suggesting that salvation is possible after death or do you agree with Cody that there are no second chances after we die, all the chances we have are till we are alive on earth. I do not want get into interpretation of the 10 Virgins parable - just clarification on this point is whAt I need.
Thanks
aksd

 

[Cody]

Then why do you suppose Jesus (the one who spoke the parable) likened heaven to all ten virgins? Do you think you might be trying to understand this parable with a traditional mindset? Jesus likened heaven to all ten not just the five and He doesn't say anything about five of them not being true virgins either.
Lets try to discern the parable of the ten virgins properly first and then we can address the others.

The word virgin is not symbolic for the saved. Look at this parable then compare it with a Jewish marriage tradition. The bridesmaids were almost always virgins, this is why Jesus said virgins. The oil is what we need to look at. To take this scripture any other way would be to contradict scripture and scripture does not contradict.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hello jiggyfly,
Would just like a clarification - are you suggesting that salvation is possible after death or do you agree with Cody that there are no second chances after we die, all the chances we have are till we are alive on earth. I do not want get into interpretation of the 10 Virgins parable - just clarification on this point is whAt I need.
Thanks
aksd

It depends on your definition of salvation and your scope of God's eternal plan.

This parable is concerning the kingdom of heaven of which the bride of Christ is part. To clarify to you what I believe about second chances could possibly run into a very lengthy thread, but I will say I do not believe in the traditonal teaching of Hell being eternal punishment. But this would be another traditonal teaching we can add to the list if you like.

 

[jiggyfly]

The word virgin is not symbolic for the saved. Look at this parable then compare it with a Jewish marriage tradition. The bridesmaids were almost always virgins, this is why Jesus said virgins. The oil is what we need to look at. To take this scripture any other way would be to contradict scripture and scripture does not contradict.

Regardless of your interpretation this story or parable is about the kingdom of heaven, period, and Jesus likened the kingdom of heaven to ALL ten virgins, period. It does not contradict other scriptures if you interpret them properly but it does contradict traditions most assuredly. Don't make the mistake and think it is all about the bride of Christ, although she is represented in the story it is about the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[aksd]

Jiggy we seem to be running around in circles. This is an open forum and as long as one is not offensive, the length of response or conviction does not matter.
I repeat my query, requesting a simple answer - as per your belief/understanding of the Bible, is Salvation possible after death or not.(Salvation, as I understand it, is to be saved from the punishment of sin and consequent seperation from God in eternity; and to be be in His kingdom and fellowship for eternity)
Please clarify
aksd

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggy we seem to be running around in circles. This is an open forum and as long as one is not offensive, the length of response or conviction does not matter.
I repeat my query, requesting a simple answer - as per your belief/understanding of the Bible, is Salvation possible after death or not.(Salvation, as I understand it, is to be saved from the punishment of sin and consequent seperation from God in eternity; and to be be in His kingdom and fellowship for eternity)
Please clarify
aksd

Then my answer is yes, like I said I do not believe in an eternal hell, eternal death, or eternal punishment.

 

[aksd]

Then my answer is yes, like I said I do not believe in an eternal hell, eternal death, or eternal punishment.

Thank you Jiggy for your answer and clarifying that you believe salvation is possible after death and that there is no eternal hell, eternal death or eternal punishment.

This raises an intriguing situation( - accepting your premise for the moment) - after death the spirit of every individual will eventually stand before God for judgement, and then at that time all of them will come to know the truth of who Jesus/God actually is and who are the false gods that they have been believing in - if they have been believing and worshiping any. So at this juncture they will have their own 'first hand evidence' of the creator God & Lord Jesus. Therefore it is highly unlikely that they will be able to deny Him anymore and will have to acknowledge Him as the Lord and God of the universe, and should therefore qualify for 'salvation'. Phillipians 2:10,11 says clearly that this submission and acknowledgement will happen - " 10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (interestingly, these verses do not even remotely indicate that because of their submission and acknowledgement of the Lordship of Jesus they will be also 'saved' or given a chance to be 'saved').As per your belief, eventually all people will/should be 'saved' - so then why have God's servants suffered throughout the ages for the gospel? If 'salvation' is inevitable - in this world or the next, and is just a question of time, why work and suffer to spread the gospel? Why have the gospel in the first place?

Secondly, James 2:19 says that even demons believe and tremble at the name of God "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe; and tremble!", then will/should demons also be also be 'saved'/restored to their status before their fall, since they do believe as per God's own Word?

Will/Can satan also be restored to heaven, if not back to his glory before his fall?
Thirdly, how do you define salvation?
aksd

 

[jiggyfly]

Colossians 1:15-23
15*Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.* 16*Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him. 17*He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together.
18*Christ is the head of the church, which is his body. He is the first of all who will rise from the dead,* so he is first in everything. 19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, 20 and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross. 21*This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, 22*yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. 23*But you must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly. Don’t drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed by God to proclaim it.

Ephesians 1:19-23
19*I pray that you will begin to understand the incredible greatness of his power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20*that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21*Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else in this world or in the world to come. 22*And God has put all things under the authority of Christ, and he gave him this authority for the benefit of the church. 23*And the church is his body; it is filled by Christ, who fills everything everywhere with his presence.

Ephesians 3:6-13
6*And this is the secret plan: The Gentiles have an equal share with the Jews in all the riches inherited by God’s children. Both groups have believed the Good News, and both are part of the same body and enjoy together the promise of blessings through Christ Jesus. 7*By God’s special favor and mighty power, I have been given the wonderful privilege of serving him by spreading this Good News.
8*Just think! Though I did nothing to deserve it, and though I am the least deserving Christian there is, I was chosen for this special joy of telling the Gentiles about the endless treasures available to them in Christ. 9*I was chosen to explain to everyone this plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning.
10*God’s purpose was to show his wisdom in all its rich variety to all the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms. They will see this when Jews and Gentiles are joined together in his church. 11*This was his plan from all eternity, and it has now been carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.
12*Because of Christ and our faith in him, we can now come fearlessly into God’s presence, assured of his glad welcome. 13*So please don’t despair because of what they are doing to me here. It is for you that I am suffering, so you should feel honored and encouraged.

Like many christians do today you are using the word saved inconsistantly it seems for most it is used generically. You can not use it to describe the benefits and reward given to the body or bride of Christ and to describe Father's reconciliation of all things. Christ's bride will rule and reign with Him, well there has to be something or someone to rule and reign over. Maybe you disagree with Pauls statement of Father's plan to reconcile all things to Himself through Christ. If so I would like to ask why?

Maybe a deeper look at this parable will help you.
Matthew 20:1-16
1 “For the Kingdom of Heaven is like the owner of an estate who went out early one morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay the normal daily wage* and sent them out to work.
3 “At nine o’clock in the morning he was passing through the marketplace and saw some people standing around doing nothing. 4 So he hired them, telling them he would pay them whatever was right at the end of the day. 5 At noon and again around three o’clock he did the same thing. 6 At five o’clock that evening he was in town again and saw some more people standing around. He asked them, ‘Why haven’t you been working today?’
7 “They replied, ‘Because no one hired us.’
“The owner of the estate told them, ‘Then go on out and join the others in my vineyard.’
8 “That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first. 9 When those hired at five o’clock were paid, each received a full day’s wage. 10 When those hired earlier came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day’s wage. 11 When they received their pay, they protested, 12 ‘Those people worked only one hour, and yet you’ve paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all day in the scorching heat.’
13 “He answered one of them, ‘Friend, I haven’t been unfair! Didn’t you agree to work all day for the usual wage? 14 Take it and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. 15 Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be angry because I am kind?’16 “And so it is, that many who are first now will be last then; and those who are last now will be first then.”

 

[Chad]

This is from an article I'm about to post.


Is "forever and ever" without end?
The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

<table class="style1" style="width: 75%;" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="5"> <tbody><tr> <td colspan="2" class="style1" align="center" width="100%"> forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style2" align="center" width="50%"> Eternal - without end</td> <td class="style2" align="center" width="50%"> Eternal Damnation</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style1" valign="top" width="50%">"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17). ". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

</td> <td class="style1" valign="middle" width="50%"> "And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

 

[Chad]

Please keep this thread on topic with the original OP.

I created a new discussion on eternal hell here
http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-prophecy-facts/15915-eternal-hell.html

Thanks