Tradition vs. Truth

[jiggyfly]

The motivation for starting this thread is to challenge us to test our traditons and see if they are supported and founded in the Truth.

Probably most here hold to traditional teachings which they have heard from various religious leaders within the christian religious system. Although these religious views and concepts may seem well supported by scripture a closer look into the scriptures reveal differently. There are many things taught today that just are true. I will list some different traditons below, just pick one out or add one of your own and we can test to see if it is Truth or just traditon.

1) Joining a church makes you part of the body of Christ.

2) Every born-again believer will be the bride of Christ.

3) You must be water baptized to become born-again.

4) Jesus' blood only washes away the sins of the believer.

5) To comply with Hebrews 10:25 you must attend religious liturgy.

6) The place where the born-again believers gather for meetings is God's house.

There many more than these so please feel free to mention any others that you want to test.

 

[rlowe]

The motivation for starting this thread is to challenge us to test our traditons and see if they are supported and founded in the Truth.

Probably most here hold to traditional teachings which they have heard from various religious leaders within the christian religious system. Although these religious views and concepts may seem well supported by scripture a closer look into the scriptures reveal differently. There are many things taught today that just are true. I will list some different traditons below, just pick one out or add one of your own and we can test to see if it is Truth or just traditon.

1) Joining a church makes you part of the body of Christ.

2) Every born-again believer will be the bride of Christ.

3) You must be water baptized to become born-again.

4) Jesus' blood only washes away the sins of the believer.

5) To comply with Hebrews 10:25 you must attend religious liturgy.

6) The place where the born-again believers gather for meetings is God's house.

There many more than these so please feel free to mention any others that you want to test.

1=False, 2=True, 3=False, 4=True -- those who believe in Him & receive His blood, 5=False, 6=False -- His house is Christians' hearts
-

 

[Christy74]

1) Joining a church makes you part of the body of Christ.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when
we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that
in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in
Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the
gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:4-9 (NKJV)

Joining a church is a work that we do, so it cannot save us since our salvation is "not of works."

 

[stephen]

When I was a boy, it was the tradition the expected thing for children to attend church. It was accepted that the teachings imbibed by such attendance, would provide a good moral foundation for life ahead.

We had 5 Methodist churches in the village, and you could make your choice, or switch at times. Religious Tradition' was a thing unheard of, and for many years after was not considered. The important thing was the development of the moral character of the attendants.

Yes we heard the 'gospel' and I am still following the Master as a result. Halcyon days indeed......"Make the message clear and plain, Christ receiveth sinful man" (just cannot put my hand on the Methodist Hymn book, and I would give you the author of that well loved hymn)

Not a bad thing I am sure to ask questions. But why have we lost the simplicity presented in the scriptures? I recall Pauls visit to Athens Acts 17 ? The Athenians were so taken up with discussion, says the scripture, they even had a monument "to the unknown God" Such was their fear of missing the point of it all.

I was in discussion recently, and making the point that Christianity is not a religion. Todays world lumps us with the religious rest. Such a shame.

If only we could get back to Jesus, back to faith in Him. In Him who alone was able to say "I am He that liveth and was dead, and behold I am alive for evermore, and have the keys if death and hell"

Sorry if I have lost the thread!

 

[jiggyfly]

If only we could get back to Jesus, back to faith in Him. In Him who alone was able to say "I am He that liveth and was dead, and behold I am alive for evermore, and have the keys if death and hell"

Sorry if I have lost the thread!

That is my intent also and the purpose of this thread. To show the simplicity of Christ and the need to be centered on Jesus. In doing so the traditions and false doctrine will be exposed also and there are many within the christian religious institutional system.

 

[jiggyfly]

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when
we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that
in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in
Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the
gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:4-9 (NKJV)

Joining a church is a work that we do, so it cannot save us since our salvation is "not of works."

Absolutely, another fact is you can join a church but you must be born into the body of Christ. So many think that just by bearing the name "Church" that it is part of the body of Christ.

 

[jiggyfly]

1=False, 2=True, 3=False, 4=True -- those who believe in Him & receive His blood, 5=False, 6=False -- His house is Christians' hearts
-

Pretty good rlowe but #2 and # 4 are also false.

2) Every born-again believer will be the bride of Christ.
Matthew25:1-13
1 “The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of ten bridesmaids* who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 The five who were foolish took no oil for their lamps, 4 but the other five were wise enough to take along extra oil. 5 When the bridegroom was delayed, they all lay down and slept. 6 At midnight they were roused by the shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out and welcome him!’
7 “All the bridesmaids got up and prepared their lamps. 8 Then the five foolish ones asked the others, ‘Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the others replied, ‘We don’t have enough for all of us. Go to a shop and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were gone to buy oil, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was locked. 11 Later, when the other five bridesmaids returned, they stood outside, calling, ‘Sir, open the door for us!’ 12 But he called back, ‘I don’t know you!’13 “So stay awake and be prepared, because you do not know the day or hour of my return.

4)Jesus' blood only washes away the sins of the believer

John 1:29
*The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[Cody]

1) Joining a church makes you part of the body of Christ.

Nope, but it could help you grow more spirtual if you found a good church.

2) Every born-again believer will be the bride of Christ.

True.

3) You must be water baptized to become born-again.

False, baptism is only to show what Jesus has already done in your heart. I believe Baptism should be done to show submission to God, but we are saved by Faith alone.

4) Jesus' blood only washes away the sins of the believer.

We must accept Jesus before we can get forgiveness. Jesus died for the sins of the world.

5) To comply with Hebrews 10:25 you must attend religious liturgy.

False. We need to exhort and love one another as Christians. Church is a good place to do so.

6) The place where the born-again believers gather for meetings is God's house.

I believe Born Again believers need to gather other places besides church, but church is a good place to do so. I also believe God's house is our hearts.

Act 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"
45 "And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."
46 "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,"
"47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." KJV

I believe it is good to find a Bible believing church where you can find people that will exhort you, love you, teach you and vice versa. Church is a great place to praise God with one another and learn about God's Word.

Love in Christ and God Bless

 

[jiggyfly]

Act 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"
45 "And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."
46 "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,"
"47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." KJV

I believe it is good to find a Bible believing church where you can find people that will exhort you, love you, teach you and vice versa. Church is a great place to praise God with one another and learn about God's Word.

Love in Christ and God Bless

I think you mixed your answers in with the questions and it looks like I posted the entire post please fix it and then I will answer your post

 

[Cody]

Matthew 25
1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." KJV

In verse 2, the foolish were the unbelievers and the wise were the believers.

In verse 3, it says the foolish did not bring the oil with them. The oil is symbolic for the Holy Spirit. We must be Born Again to be the bride of Christ.

In verse 9, we see that the foolish waited too late to obtain salvation. We must be Born Again before we die or Christ comes. There are no second chances afterwards.(Hebrews 9:27)

 

[jiggyfly]

Matthew 25
1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." KJV

In verse 2, the foolish were the unbelievers and the wise were the believers.

In verse 3, it says the foolish did not bring the oil with them. The oil is symbolic for the Holy Spirit. We must be Born Again to be the bride of Christ.

In verse 9, we see that the foolish waited too late to obtain salvation. We must be Born Again before we die or Christ comes. There are no second chances afterwards.(Hebrews 9:27)

Look at the first verse Cody, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like ten virgins. Is there unbelievers in heaven? Reread the text again and look more closely .

Do you have any scripture that state there are no second chances?

 

[Cody]

Hey brother, are you talking about a second chance on earth or after death?

 

[Cody]

Look at the first verse Cody, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like ten virgins. Is there unbelievers in heaven? Reread the text again and look more closely .

Do you have any scripture that state there are no second chances?

Hebrews 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" KJV

On earth we have second chances, but after we die, we don't have another chance to accept Jesus.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" KJV

Here God will seperate the sheep from the goats. The sheep are the saved and the goats are the unsaved.

Back to Matthew 25:1-13

This parable is telling us about the second coming of Christ. We must be ready before we die because after that there are no second chances. Like God shut the door of Noah's Ark, He will also shut the door for the dead unbelievers.

The 5 that do not have the oil are false Christians. They profess to be Christians and say that they know Christ, but they do not. They are false Christians because they lack the oil(Holy Spirit). Christ isn't fooled by the foolish(false Christians) because He knows all. He knows His sheep and He knows the goats.

No, there isn't any unbelievers in Heaven. Verse 1 is talking about the 5 unbelievers and 5 believers standing before Christ on the second coming. These 10 virgins were not in Heaven in Verse 1.

 

[Chad]

Excellent thread brother jiggyfly. We need this kind of fresh-topic thread, a wake up call to the non-sense. In the same fashion you listed a few traditions in numbered order, I'd like to mention a few things that people do which makes them such obvious hypocrites...sorry but truth hurts folks.

1. They claim to listen to GOD and abide by His Word, but they refuse correction. Instead, without humility they respond with foolish insulting comments towards the person(s) who corrected them.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2. They say "I believe". They walk a different path.

Matthew 7:21-23
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

3. They pray, and dread prayer time just to fulfill the "work" for the night or they pray to impress other sinners.

Matthew 23:13-15
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Word of Life]

Thank you for starting this interesting thread, jiggyfly.

I do too get a bit confused sometimes with what is truth and what is tradition out there. I want to trust people out there, but sometimes it's hard for me. But, I can see by your posts and replies, you have spent a lot of time studying this subject, which we can all learn from.

I have been to a web site called "Truth or Tradition", and I have learnt several things from that site too. But man can fool me, so one has to be extremely cautious, with what one reads, or one can be burnt.

I know God's Word is the truth, and I also know I can be extremely stubborn at times. And knocking down barriers of tradition, where one could have been burnt by some kind of tradition, is not easy.

All, I know is, I want to worship the Creator of the Heaven and Earth, so I will continue knocking and seeking and learning.

My interpretation of the 10 virgins, was as Cody saw it. So I need to re-read it again too.

God bless you.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hebrews 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" KJV

On earth we have second chances, but after we die, we don't have another chance to accept Jesus.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" KJV

Here God will seperate the sheep from the goats. The sheep are the saved and the goats are the unsaved.

Back to Matthew 25:1-13

This parable is telling us about the second coming of Christ. We must be ready before we die because after that there are no second chances. Like God shut the door of Noah's Ark, He will also shut the door for the dead unbelievers.

The 5 that do not have the oil are false Christians. They profess to be Christians and say that they know Christ, but they do not. They are false Christians because they lack the oil(Holy Spirit). Christ isn't fooled by the foolish(false Christians) because He knows all. He knows His sheep and He knows the goats.

No, there isn't any unbelievers in Heaven. Verse 1 is talking about the 5 unbelievers and 5 believers standing before Christ on the second coming. These 10 virgins were not in Heaven in Verse 1.

Then why do you suppose Jesus (the one who spoke the parable) likened heaven to all ten virgins? Do you think you might be trying to understand this parable with a traditional mindset? Jesus likened heaven to all ten not just the five and He doesn't say anything about five of them not being true virgins either.
Lets try to discern the parable of the ten virgins properly first and then we can address the others.

 

[jiggyfly]

Excellent thread brother jiggyfly. We need this kind of fresh-topic thread, a wake up call to the non-sense. In the same fashion you listed a few traditions in numbered order, I'd like to mention a few things that people do which makes them such obvious hypocrites...sorry but truth hurts folks.

1. They claim to listen to GOD and abide by His Word, but they refuse correction. Instead, without humility they respond with foolish insulting comments towards the person(s) who corrected them.

2. They say "I believe". They walk a different path.

3. They pray, and dread prayer time just to fulfill the "work" for the night or they pray to impress other sinners.

Thank you and good post too Chad, I think the problem with most people in the examples you listed is that they are blind and they can't see themselves as they really are. Religious tradition can do this, Jesus even told the religious leaders of His day that their traditions made God's word uneffective.

Something else to note in the scripture you quoted in Matthew 7. Is it possible for an unbeleiver to cast out devils? Jesus said that if satan casts out himself his kingdom wouldn't last very long. Christ said the works were unauthorized but He didn't say that they were false works.

 

[jiggyfly]

Thank you for starting this interesting thread, jiggyfly.

I do too get a bit confused sometimes with what is truth and what is tradition out there. I want to trust people out there, but sometimes it's hard for me. But, I can see by your posts and replies, you have spent a lot of time studying this subject, which we can all learn from.

I have been to a web site called "Truth or Tradition", and I have learnt several things from that site too. But man can fool me, so one has to be extremely cautious, with what one reads, or one can be burnt.

I know God's Word is the truth, and I also know I can be extremely stubborn at times. And knocking down barriers of tradition, where one could have been burnt by some kind of tradition, is not easy.

All, I know is, I want to worship the Creator of the Heaven and Earth, so I will continue knocking and seeking and learning.

My interpretation of the 10 virgins, was as Cody saw it. So I need to re-read it again too.

God bless you.

Hallelujah! That is the key Word of Life seek to find. It's kind of like a little gossip exercise we used to do years ago. start with one person and wisper to another person a little story and they tell one person and so on and then the last person tells what they heard out loud. It's amazing how the story has changed in the end. We have this same habbit with God's word. I often find this true with most people concerning Jesus' parables.

It is hard to break when we have a mindset that was formed from traditonal teachings. This is why John the Baptist preached "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" If one goes back and studies this in the greek text they would find that it doesn't mean repent in the common way but rather to change the way you think. The Jews already had a traditional mindset of Messiah.

So here is John saying, Listen! you better change your way of thinking concerning Messiah, He is not coming in the way your tradition has taught you and if you don't change this way of thinking you won't recognize Him. Latter we see that Jesus confronted the pharisees and said to them, you study and even memorize the scriptures and the scriptures all testify of Me and yet you don't recognize who I am.

See the power that tradition can have if we don't challenge it. A traditional mindset can be spiritual suicide.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hey brother, are you talking about a second chance on earth or after death?

You have to answer that one. You said there are no second chances and I asked you if you had scriptures that state that.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hebrews 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" KJV

On earth we have second chances, but after we die, we don't have another chance to accept Jesus.

-------------------------------------------------------------

So you are saying that judgement is final?

It is very important to keep scripture within it's context.
Hebrews 9:24-28
24*For Christ has entered into heaven itself to appear now before God as our Advocate.* He did not go into the earthly place of worship, for that was merely a copy of the real Temple in heaven. 25*Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the earthly high priest who enters the Most Holy Place year after year to offer the blood of an animal. 26*If that had been necessary, he would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But no! He came once for all time, at the end of the age, to remove the power of sin forever by his sacrificial death for us.
27*And just as it is destined that each person dies only once and after that comes judgment, 28*so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Here the writer is expressing the differences between the old covenant and the new covenant and correcting a wrong mindset of God's plan and purpose in the Christ.