A simple but confusing equation!

[living]

One of my friend asked me a question, though I reasoned with him well but I couldn't find a convincing answer to his question.

He asked me;
1- Do you believe that Jesus is God(or part of God)?
The answer obviously comes "YES".

2- Do you believe that Jesus died on cross?
And again, there is no hesitation in saying "YES" as His death is the gift of Salvation.

He equated 1 & 2 and said; Do you believe God Died? Though he rosed up on 3rd day but still, How can God Almighty, The Creator and Everliving can ever Die?
And this equation brought all sorts of trouble to me in the back of my mind.
Can anyone bring some convincing reasoning to this simple equation?

 

[gladstone]

Reasoning

Although I can't say I'm a Biblical scholar by any means, if asked this question myself, I would answer that God, through all his power became human. Although Jesus was God, he was also human, which is how he knows of human suffering as he went through it too. And died in a dreadful, painful, and humiliating way, but because he was also God, broke through death and came back to life, which is what we too will do when we die.

It is certainly one of the complicated Christian concepts, that Almighty God became human, but once accepted, it does make sense.

At least, this is the way I look on it, but if anyone has another interpretation I will gladly hear of it.

 

[BecuzHeLives]

One of my friend asked me a question, though I reasoned with him well but I couldn't find a convincing answer to his question.

He asked me;
1- Do you believe that Jesus is God(or part of God)?
The answer obviously comes "YES".

2- Do you believe that Jesus died on cross?
And again, there is no hesitation in saying "YES" as His death is the gift of Salvation.

He equated 1 & 2 and said; Do you believe God Died? Though he rosed up on 3rd day but still, How can God Almighty, The Creator and Everliving can ever Die?
And this equation brought all sorts of trouble to me in the back of my mind.
Can anyone bring some convincing reasoning to this simple equation?

Yes Jesus die because of our sins. That just tell you how much he love you. Did you really die? If he rose again. The answer is yes he die but he didn't exactly die like us (for a long time). He was resurrected from the death. Jesus is alive and that's all that matter. That he die for our sin and he's alive. Don't lost focus of Jesus and concentrate on these things because the soul purpose of his analogy is to proud that our God is a false God, and he is not real. But my friend the miraculous things God can do we won't able to understand it. Please read Job 38. and Psalms to see how much God love us all. God Bless Gladstone.

 

[sebi]

you should ask that friend, what does he understand by death?
what does he understand when he says "God died?" And think about this yourself.

There are at least 2 types of death (spiritual, and carnal - in the body). I believe Christ died both deaths. He was man, so he could die in the body. He was God, and He died in the spirit - Now, spiritual death is not that similar to the death of the body. It means to be separated from God the Father. Jesus was separated from God because He was full of our sins. This is also the death that people will experience in hell.

so, with a little bit of intelectual effort, and willing, your friend can understand this..

oh, and yeah... I think that if an allmighty God gives His life to people that don't deserve it, then that makes Him even grater, and "more allmighty"

hope to have been of help

 

[baruch]

1- Do you believe that Jesus is God(or part of God)?
The answer obviously comes "YES".
Yes, Jesus is the second person of the trinity( Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
When Jesus was baptised by John, the Spirit Of God came down like a dove and alighted on Him. Then a voice said from heaven "This is my dear Son, with whom I AM pleased" Matthew 3:16,17. So while the Son, Jesus was here on Earth, God, the Father was still in heaven. So, it was God the Father who raised Jesus the Son to life at the ressurrection.

 

[stephen]

1- Do you believe that Jesus is God(or part of God)?
The answer obviously comes "YES".
Yes, Jesus is the second person of the trinity( Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
When Jesus was baptised by John, the Spirit Of God came down like a dove and alighted on Him. Then a voice said from heaven "This is my dear Son, with whom I AM pleased" Matthew 3:16,17. So while the Son, Jesus was here on Earth, God, the Father was still in heaven. So, it was God the Father who raised Jesus the Son to life at the ressurrection.

Thats it.......

"God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth" God expresses himself in three persons. A big subject

There comes a time in every sincere, and seeking life, when the questioning has to be put aside.

When a seeker needs to remember the words of Jesus "Ask and it shall be given you, Seek and you will find, Knock and it will be opened unto you. For he that asketh receiveth, he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocks it will be opened. If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask of Him"

The questioning human mind has to be byepassed, in order to receive from one so Almighty as the LOrd.

 

[living]

@ galdstone and others

I would answer that God, through all his power became human. Although Jesus was God, he was also human, which is how he knows of human suffering as he went through it too. And died in a dreadful, painful, and humiliating way, but because he was also God, broke through death and came back to life, which is what we too will do when we die.

Thank you all for your replies.
Infact I reasoned the same way. But that doesn't help much.

He argued that.

Who is God? God is the Creator, Absolute, free of all needs, Eternal.
Now what is Man? Man is Creation, we have several needs, i.e. we need to eat, drink, go to toilet etc, we take birth and we die(or resurrect).

Now, if we say that someone is God as well as Man, what does that implies? He is Creation and Creator at the same time, He is free of all needs and yet needs to eat, drink and go to toilet etc, He is Eternal and yet we talk about His birth and death(or resurrection).
So does this all make any sense?

And you said that God became human to know the human sufferings since God is so pure.
It seems a good reason. But it too has a problem, if God is our Creator and All Knowing, does He really need to do that all.
Take human example, We humans created/invented radio, television, mobiles etc. Do we need to become a radio to tell what is good and bad for it? or do we just write an instruction manual (give a guidance)?

I hope someone help solve this problem and provide me with some convincing reasoning for my friend.

 

[Faithful Son]

The only advise or reasoning I could give is this.
We shouldn't speculate why God does things, we should praise Him for it, not contradict Him in our ways.

1 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)

16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

John 14:6-7 (NIV)

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

 

[living]

@ Sebi

you should ask that friend, what does he understand by death?
what does he understand when he says "God died?" And think about this yourself.

There are at least 2 types of death (spiritual, and carnal - in the body). I believe Christ died both deaths. He was man, so he could die in the body. He was God, and He died in the spirit - Now, spiritual death is not that similar to the death of the body. It means to be separated from God the Father. Jesus was separated from God because He was full of our sins. This is also the death that people will experience in hell.

Thank you very much for your help. Infact I did ask him what you told me.

My friend replied:
Let us not indulge into types of death (spiritual or in body).
Do you think this term ‘death’(partial or impartial) suits the Eternal God?

He asked:
You said,” I believe Jesus Christ died both deaths”.
Now just replace Jesus Christ with the word “God” and say it again.
“I believe God died both deaths!!” And think on it; are you comfortable in believing in such a God?
Though I said “YES” but his question remains unanswered.


@ Stephen .................................................................

Thank you my brother for your reply and devotion.

"God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth" God expresses himself in three persons.

Though I will not give name to the nature of God’s being, therefore I will not even call Him a Spirit. But I hope you meant to say by the word ‘Spirit’ that we cannot put an image of God in our mind, we can’t compare Him with any thing physical bound in time and space (i.e. things in our universe).

But the reality is we don’t believe in that. When we say God, we do put an image of a God in our mind, that is a Model of Jesus Christ, A Man on a Cross! A we do treat God in physical terms, One who is like us, who walks, eats, feels pain, bleeds etc

Regarding God expressed Himself in three persons.
I would show more generosity and say that God though concealed but is expressed in every bit of this universe. In alteration of day and night, in the development of a child from the womb of mother to a grown up being, in water cycle, in the eco-system,.. infact there is a complete field of study, “Science” that describes the wonders of God. The Ultimate Wisdom and Balance in the Creation!


@ Teraside .................................................................

Thank you for your post.

We devoted Christians do recognize those beautiful records of Bible. But it cannot serve as a valid reasoning for a one who is not a Christian and want to reason things.

 

[Faithful Son]

I wanted to quote you but that would've looked like a mess, I apologize if this may offend you, but God is Spirit, God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Mark 12:29 (NIV)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

John 14:16 (NIV)
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Let us not forget that, also, God Himself is spirit.

John 4:24 (NIV)
24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Another thing I disagree with is your statement that the Bible is not for an unbeliever, that is false, the Bible, God's Word is for everyone, the Bible has all the answers for believer and non believer alike.

I would appreciate it if you post scripture regarding what you say and not just your own opinion, this is a small warning.

God bless.

 

[rlowe]

The Lord said,
"My thoughts are not your thoughts nor are My ways your ways"

Some things regarding God we can't, while on this earth,
understand well enough to convincingly explain to those without faith.

Other concepts we can't understand at all while on this earth, so then we believe because of the One who said it, not because we see it or it is logical.

 

[sebi]

the way i see things, living, your friend is not interested in the Gospel and the salvation that comes through God. There are a lot of paradoxes in the world, but i think he believes in them (you have fish that fly, you have 1/0 = infinity in math, although the divided quantity is just 1, you have extremely small places in the universe that have enormous masses - black holes, you have e=mcc which means that the mass of an object varies according to its speed, you have the Doppler effect that says that the stars that move away from you emit waves in a different way compared to stars that move towards you, although they both have the same speed... and this is, i think, just the tip of the iceberg - science is just discovering these things. Ask your friends if he believes in these things? They are pretty weird... And still, he knows they are true.

And another thing. you may say all sorts of tings about persons you don't know, but not all of them will be true. Your friend does not know God, so how can he say that the idea of God almighty dieing isn't normal? He does not know the Lord, His love, power of sacrifice, and mercy. So he does not have the right to say that it is impossible for God to die. We must not forget that God works wonders, and that His birth and death were probably the most awesome wonders He has ever done.


- sebi -

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: A simple but confusing question.

One of my friend asked me a question, though I reasoned with him well but I couldn't find a convincing answer to his question.

He asked me;
1- Do you believe that Jesus is God(or part of God)?
The answer obviously comes "YES".

2- Do you believe that Jesus died on cross?
And again, there is no hesitation in saying "YES" as His death is the gift of Salvation.

He equated 1 & 2 and said; Do you believe God Died? Though he rosed up on 3rd day but still, How can God Almighty, The Creator and Everliving can ever Die?
And this equation brought all sorts of trouble to me in the back of my mind.
Can anyone bring some convincing reasoning to this simple equation?

In my opinion, the Apostle Paul wrote the verses that answer your questions:

"Your attitude should be that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross." (Phil 2:6-8).

Jesus was and is God, yet he temporarily laid aside his powers and prerogatives as God, humbled himself and became man, fully God and fully human at one and the same time.

SLE

 

[living]

@ Teraside

I received your warning and I am extremely sorry for unintentionally hurting you and the decorum of the forums at TJ. :embarasse

Secondly, I didn’t know that
“God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth”
was a quote from Bible, John 4:24. Otherwise I wouldn’t have said that.

I negated that idea only as my personal view, according to my limited understanding. Since I thought God in Christianity was One, Incomparable and Unique. And the terms; Son, Father and Spirit are mere expressions and doesn’t truly represent the Actual Nature of God’s Being. Therefore I abstain from being explicit in using any word to explain the Physical Being (or nature of existence) of True God.
Because I think that the Infinite, Absolute God cannot be comprehended into our limited and finite mind. Furthermore, we humans use light of our experience and knowledge of this world to interpret all things, therefore we cannot comprehend things out of this universe/creation, The God (Creator), except that we give Him attributes like; Creator, Merciful, Just, Cherisher etc. that are godly and doesn’t make any physical picture in our mind.

So it is my personal understanding and I am not putting it as any argument. And I am sorry again. I expect forgiveness, a kind and helping response from you.

Just a clarification on my beliefs: (I may have a different understanding but) I believe in the same One God who is Creator of you, me and all that exists. And in Jesus Christ, I hope to follow his footsteps as a path to God. And I hope to receive him on his second coming. I believe in Hereafter (Heaven/Hell), in revelations of God, in His Angels and Prophets.

May God Almighty guide me and all people of the world to His Straight Path. Amen!

 

[Faithful Son]

Hi there Living, thank you for humbling yourself and for being understanding. One thing you have to remember is that we as moderators do not hold a grudge against members of this forum, I have forgiven you, but we need to adhere to the forum rules that Chad the Admnistrator has set, so that this forum can be a safe place for Biblical discussion. I do not hate you Living.


Article from gotquestions.org

Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"

Answer: The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean it is not true or not based on the teachings of the Bible.

Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word "Trinity" is not used in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are 3 coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God. Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting 3 Gods. The Trinity is 1 God made up of 3 persons. There is nothing wrong with using the term "Trinity" even though the word is not found in the Bible. It is shorter to say the word "Trinity" than to say "3 coexistent, co-eternal persons making up 1 God." If this presents a problem to you, consider this: the word grandfather is not used in the Bible either. Yet, we know there were grandfathers in the Bible. Abraham was the grandfather of Jacob. So don't get hung up on the term "Trinity" itself. What should be of real importance is that the concept that is REPRESENTED by the word "Trinity" does exist in Scripture. With the introduction out of the way, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.

1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God's greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-34)

 

[Chad]

1- Do you believe that Jesus is God(or part of God)?
The answer obviously comes "YES".
Yes, Jesus is the second person of the trinity( Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
When Jesus was baptised by John, the Spirit Of God came down like a dove and alighted on Him. Then a voice said from heaven "This is my dear Son, with whom I AM pleased" Matthew 3:16,17. So while the Son, Jesus was here on Earth, God, the Father was still in heaven. So, it was God the Father who raised Jesus the Son to life at the ressurrection.

Amen. That is the answer, the Truth. Show your friend this