God's Chosen?
- Thread starter Cody
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I think the bible teaches election. I can't really say that my brain likes it, and I will even admit that I don't like it... because I just don't understand it. I don't like things I don't understand, but I have to just trust that God is infinitely just. So anyway... I will post this for your reading. If you want to see where this debate really began, and has been fully sworded out, search for arminianism vs calvanism on the web. I am very curious to see where evryone stands on this issue also.
Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church, the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The question goes like this: Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, Does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?
Where’s the evidence?
This question of choice is called "election" because of the Greek word for those who are chosen—the Bible calls them eklektos. There are many such uses in the Bible (cf. Col. 3:12; 1 Tim. 5:21; Tit. 1:1; 2 John 1), but one of my favorites is in Romans 8:33: "Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?" The answer is, "no one," but why? Is it because I chose God, or is it because God chose me?
One passage that is critical to the discussion is in the opening chapter of Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. Immediately after his customary greeting, Paul launches in Ephesians 1:3-14 with a great song of praise. It’s only one sentence—but, with 200 words in the Greek, it may be the longest single sentence in religious literature.
Paul touches on all the great biblical themes in that hyper-complex sentence—sanctification, adoption, redemption, and glorification—and all of them rest on one foundational doctrine, the doctrine of election. The most superlative spiritual blessings stand on Ephesians 1:4—"He chose us [elected us] in Him before the foundation of the world."
So the doctrine of election is biblical, but what does that passage really teach? I want to help you get a better grasp of that by pointing out what Paul teaches about election. If you are a believer, you can equip yourself for your next conversation on this topic. But more important, as one of His elect you can rejoice in the astonishing kindness God showed you before the world began.
What does it mean?
Paul’s song is essentially his reflection on the amazing truth that God "blessed us with every spiritual blessing … in Christ" (v. 3). And how did He bless us? "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4).
God didn’t draw straws; He didn’t look down the corridor of time to see who would choose Him before He decided. Rather, by His sovereign will He chose who would be in the Body of Christ. The construction of the Greek verb for "chose" indicates God chose us for Himself. That means God acted totally independent of any outside influence. He made His choice totally apart from human will and purely on the basis of His sovereignty.
Jesus said to His disciples, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). And in the same Gospel, John wrote, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (1:12-13, italics mine). And Paul said, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13).
Those statements defining God’s sovereign choice of believers are not in the Bible to cause controversy, as if God’s election means sinners don’t make decisions. Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).
Admittedly the two concepts don’t seem to go together. However, both are true separately, and we must accept them both by faith. You may not understand it, but rest assured—it’s fully reconciled in the mind of God.
You must understand that your faith and salvation rest entirely on God’s election (cf. Acts 13:48). And yet the day you came to Jesus Christ, you did so because of an internal desire—you did nothing against your will. But even that desire is God-given—He supplies the necessary faith so we can believe (Eph. 2:8).
Think about it—if your salvation depends on you, then praise to God is ridiculous. But, in truth, your praise to God is completely appropriate, because in forming the Body before the world began, He chose you by His sovereign decree apart from any of your works. The doctrine of election demonstrates God being God, exercising divine prerogatives. For that we must praise Him.
"But that’s not fair!"
Some are shocked to find that God didn’t choose everyone to salvation. Jesus said, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39, italics mine). God the Father chose certain individuals to form a Body as a gift to Jesus Christ. Every believer is part of that love gift to Christ—a gift of the Father’s love to His Son.
To those who say that is unjust, Paul answers: "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion’" (Rom. 9:14-15).
So why does God still find fault in unrepentant sinners when He didn’t choose them? Doesn’t this deny human responsibility? Is it fair for God to still hold them accountable?
Paul answers all such questions with a rebuke—"who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it?" (v. 20). Does the clay jump up and ask the potter why it looks the way it does? Not at all.
Some believe that is terribly cold and calculating. But that is only one side of God’s sovereign election. Paul continues in the next chapter by saying, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved … for ‘whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved’" (10:9, 13).
How these two sides of God’s truth—His sovereignty in choosing us (Rom. 9) and our responsibility to confess and believe (Rom. 10)—reconcile is impossible for us to understand fully. But Scripture declares both perspectives of salvation to be true (John 1:12-13). It’s our duty to acknowledge both and joyfully accept them by faith.
<hr id="null"> Adapted from The Body Dynamic, © 1996 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved
Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church, the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The question goes like this: Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, Does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?
Where’s the evidence?
This question of choice is called "election" because of the Greek word for those who are chosen—the Bible calls them eklektos. There are many such uses in the Bible (cf. Col. 3:12; 1 Tim. 5:21; Tit. 1:1; 2 John 1), but one of my favorites is in Romans 8:33: "Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?" The answer is, "no one," but why? Is it because I chose God, or is it because God chose me?
One passage that is critical to the discussion is in the opening chapter of Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. Immediately after his customary greeting, Paul launches in Ephesians 1:3-14 with a great song of praise. It’s only one sentence—but, with 200 words in the Greek, it may be the longest single sentence in religious literature.
Paul touches on all the great biblical themes in that hyper-complex sentence—sanctification, adoption, redemption, and glorification—and all of them rest on one foundational doctrine, the doctrine of election. The most superlative spiritual blessings stand on Ephesians 1:4—"He chose us [elected us] in Him before the foundation of the world."
So the doctrine of election is biblical, but what does that passage really teach? I want to help you get a better grasp of that by pointing out what Paul teaches about election. If you are a believer, you can equip yourself for your next conversation on this topic. But more important, as one of His elect you can rejoice in the astonishing kindness God showed you before the world began.
What does it mean?
Paul’s song is essentially his reflection on the amazing truth that God "blessed us with every spiritual blessing … in Christ" (v. 3). And how did He bless us? "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4).
God didn’t draw straws; He didn’t look down the corridor of time to see who would choose Him before He decided. Rather, by His sovereign will He chose who would be in the Body of Christ. The construction of the Greek verb for "chose" indicates God chose us for Himself. That means God acted totally independent of any outside influence. He made His choice totally apart from human will and purely on the basis of His sovereignty.
Jesus said to His disciples, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). And in the same Gospel, John wrote, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (1:12-13, italics mine). And Paul said, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13).
Those statements defining God’s sovereign choice of believers are not in the Bible to cause controversy, as if God’s election means sinners don’t make decisions. Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).
Admittedly the two concepts don’t seem to go together. However, both are true separately, and we must accept them both by faith. You may not understand it, but rest assured—it’s fully reconciled in the mind of God.
You must understand that your faith and salvation rest entirely on God’s election (cf. Acts 13:48). And yet the day you came to Jesus Christ, you did so because of an internal desire—you did nothing against your will. But even that desire is God-given—He supplies the necessary faith so we can believe (Eph. 2:8).
Think about it—if your salvation depends on you, then praise to God is ridiculous. But, in truth, your praise to God is completely appropriate, because in forming the Body before the world began, He chose you by His sovereign decree apart from any of your works. The doctrine of election demonstrates God being God, exercising divine prerogatives. For that we must praise Him.
"But that’s not fair!"
Some are shocked to find that God didn’t choose everyone to salvation. Jesus said, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39, italics mine). God the Father chose certain individuals to form a Body as a gift to Jesus Christ. Every believer is part of that love gift to Christ—a gift of the Father’s love to His Son.
To those who say that is unjust, Paul answers: "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion’" (Rom. 9:14-15).
So why does God still find fault in unrepentant sinners when He didn’t choose them? Doesn’t this deny human responsibility? Is it fair for God to still hold them accountable?
Paul answers all such questions with a rebuke—"who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it?" (v. 20). Does the clay jump up and ask the potter why it looks the way it does? Not at all.
Some believe that is terribly cold and calculating. But that is only one side of God’s sovereign election. Paul continues in the next chapter by saying, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved … for ‘whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved’" (10:9, 13).
How these two sides of God’s truth—His sovereignty in choosing us (Rom. 9) and our responsibility to confess and believe (Rom. 10)—reconcile is impossible for us to understand fully. But Scripture declares both perspectives of salvation to be true (John 1:12-13). It’s our duty to acknowledge both and joyfully accept them by faith.
<hr id="null"> Adapted from The Body Dynamic, © 1996 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved
Well, I have read in one of the small books in the new testament, that says IT IS THE WILL OF GOD THAT THE WORLD BE SAVED. Praise God, because it is on this verse that I believe that my family shall be saved. So the devil can't tell me anything else, then I throw him with this arrow.
(Not necessarily contradicting to the above verse)....the verse which says that God chooses on whom he shows mercy and who not, brings me to the point that I pray that God may have mercy upon my family that they might be saved.
(Not necessarily contradicting to the above verse)....the verse which says that God chooses on whom he shows mercy and who not, brings me to the point that I pray that God may have mercy upon my family that they might be saved.
Cody
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I think of it this way. God has chosen people to be saved, yeah. But it is our own free will if we want to accept that gift or not. I can choose you to be my friend but if you dont accept my friendship, you will not be my friend. Maybe God chose everyone, but its our choice if we accept it or not.
Faithful Son
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I tend to disagree with that statement Cody, do you know why?
We have to believe.
John 3:16 (NIV)
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Please read Romans chapter 10 as well, to get a clearer understanding.
God bless
We have to believe.
John 3:16 (NIV)
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Please read Romans chapter 10 as well, to get a clearer understanding.
God bless
It is a tough concept to grasp. I can't rap my mind around it. I have tried for a while now, and I have to say that arminianism is much more pleasing to my brain, but I just think scripture disagrees with it.
Rom 8:29 Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers [and sisters].
Rom 8:30 Now whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified [or, declared righteous]; but whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Tons of other verses that say similar things.
Eph 1:4-6, 11
Eph 2:1, 5, 8
There are many more.
Anyway it really is a hard one to grasp. There is however a difference between fatalism and how God works.
As far as this, obviously God's will is that we all be saved, but we know from scripture that not everyone will be saved.
However, if your family is to be saved then it will be by your prayer and sharing of the gospel. God doesn't use "magic" it isn't his style.
You are the means by which your family will be saved. God uses people to achieve what he wants to have happen. So don't be a fatalist and think that what you do doesn't matter even though it is pre-determined, be the means by which God will accomplish his will. You already said you know it's his will that all be saved, now keep doing what your doing and be the means by which he accomplishes it, and save your family
That is why even though people are either going to be saved, or not be saved we preach the Gospel anyway. The Gospel calls out God's elect.
It is such a tough concept, I really just don't like it :X, and that frankly is a sin. It shows my distrust in God and I hate that. I need to pray about it certainly. Anyway, I hope this helps clarify some.
Rom 8:29 Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers [and sisters].
Rom 8:30 Now whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified [or, declared righteous]; but whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Tons of other verses that say similar things.
Eph 1:4-6, 11
Eph 2:1, 5, 8
There are many more.
Anyway it really is a hard one to grasp. There is however a difference between fatalism and how God works.
As far as this, obviously God's will is that we all be saved, but we know from scripture that not everyone will be saved.
However, if your family is to be saved then it will be by your prayer and sharing of the gospel. God doesn't use "magic" it isn't his style.
You are the means by which your family will be saved. God uses people to achieve what he wants to have happen. So don't be a fatalist and think that what you do doesn't matter even though it is pre-determined, be the means by which God will accomplish his will. You already said you know it's his will that all be saved, now keep doing what your doing and be the means by which he accomplishes it, and save your family
That is why even though people are either going to be saved, or not be saved we preach the Gospel anyway. The Gospel calls out God's elect.
It is such a tough concept, I really just don't like it :X, and that frankly is a sin. It shows my distrust in God and I hate that. I need to pray about it certainly. Anyway, I hope this helps clarify some.
We were talking about pre-destination in my bible group, not in great depth, and my brain just can't comprehend it, I don't think we are meant to. I am not as smart as some of you lot either! Anyhow I asked the question, about why bother praying for our loved ones and the unsaved, if God has made His decision already? And I can't remember the answer the pastor gave, but somehow I know we should pray for salvation of others, and I still believe my son will be saved, as well as other family members and friends. And I continue praying with all my heart, its like I am driven to do that.
:shade: Calluna
:shade: Calluna
I think you should read what I posted above
Don't get into fatalism. God's will is already determined, but we are his instruments for bringing his will into action. Your family member may be pre-destined to be saved, but you are God's instrument for making that happen.
2nd off, it's a straight up command to preach the gospel to all the earth
I believe the reason it is a command, is because the Gospel has the power to call out the elect. Nothing else has this power. Some people it takes hearing about Jesus 800 times before they get it, others it is a one time deal, but ALWAYS it is the Gospel that brings the elect to their God ordained faith.Word of Life
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2nd off, it's a straight up command to preach the gospel to all the earth
I totally agree with this. Its up to us as Christian to preach the Word to everyone. God is with me everyday, when I do my bit of preaching, some run some have a complete blank look on there face some just avoid me completely. God has told me not to give up and that I won't do, I need to do what He tells me. So I will continue to preach at work, or where ever I may be at that time, when He tells me to get the message out. Its extremely important, that people get the message. There are so many luke warm Christians out there, I am preaching to them too.
I have been working in Christian environment company for 8 years, not one preached to me. I find this extremely sad and you don't know how many times I have cried over it.
Now going back to my situation, if I had been preached too 10 times a day by Christians at work, don't you think I would have sat up and listened a bit more and saw that it was an extremely important message. A lot of Christian are too scared too, but don't be, God will help you what to say. I know He will.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
It's tough I know, but lets keep getting the message out. It may not sink in the first time, nor the second time, maybe it will only sink in, in a years time. But we mustn't give up, its our job to follow in Jesus' footsteps.
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2Peter 3:8&9
8*But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9* The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Arminianism and Calvinism are conflicting, they cannot both be right but they can both be wrong. The focus of these two doctrines are who Christ died for. Which means Christ is not the focus of either but man or a certain group of people are the focus. If you really want God's heart on this subject, I suggest that you talk to Him not Jacobus Arminius or John Calvin.
8*But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9* The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Arminianism and Calvinism are conflicting, they cannot both be right but they can both be wrong. The focus of these two doctrines are who Christ died for. Which means Christ is not the focus of either but man or a certain group of people are the focus. If you really want God's heart on this subject, I suggest that you talk to Him not Jacobus Arminius or John Calvin.
Thanks for your input. Don't get me wrong.... I know the Lord asks us to go out all into the world and spread the gospel, so despite my question to my pastor, (maybe its one of those questions, we are not meant to know the answer to fully) I still definitely pray for others and witnessing whenever the opportunity arises, I carry around with me bible tracts, I am becoming more confident with it aswell. I praise the Lord for helping me with this.
:shade: Calluna
:shade: Calluna
If prayer is our means of speaking to God, and he speaks to us with his word, by what means are we to know what he says other than his word? I think Arminianism and Calvinism are both derived from scripture and are therefore valid arguments. I agree it would be good to pray about the issue wanting revelation, but the word is where God reveals all truth. If Christ is God, and he is, then the focus is wanting to understand God, which means God/Christ are the focus not just the men.
It is an important issue, because both speak differently about God's grace, and therefore speak differently about him.
You really did clarify the issue when you said "The focus of these two doctrines are who Christ died for" Every passage of scripture that is similar to the one that you posted will depend on either view. The verse you posted could be refering to the elect if it is interpreted with those verses that begin Eph., or if looked at in a broad sense it could say everyone.
I am not being sarcastic when I say, I would like to know how they could both be wrong
It seems like it would have to be one way or another, but I would definitly be open to hearing another view, I am still pretty new to studying this issue, and to Christianity in general so forgive me if I am overlooking an obvious third viewpoint.
Faithful Son
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By listening to God Himself, the Holy Spirit
John 14:16-18
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 15:26-27
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:12-14
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
All scripture posted are from the New International Version
God bless
By listening to God Himself, the Holy Spirit
John 14:16-18
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 15:26-27
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:12-14
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
All scripture posted are from the New International Version
God bless
And will the Holy Spirit ever contradict scripture? Seeing as he is the author I don't think he will
Scripture is sufficient, and that is why any argument about God must come from scripture. Also, in context, all of those verses was Jesus peaking directly to his Apostles. Apostles were clearly given special authority. Apostles wrote most the remainder of the word so they clearly had something special, as we do not see anymore scripture being written today (and will not). God may reveal himself to people in other ways, but at the very minimum, it is clear that he has put much work into giving us our bible, and it should always be the authority, and any argument to be considered valid must stem from what we are sure is written by the Holy Spirit.
So if God reveals something to someone, it will never contradict scripture, and therefore scripture is sufficient for knowing everything about God that he wants us to know.
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And will the Holy Spirit ever contradict scripture? Seeing as he is the author I don't think he will
God may reveal himself to people in other ways, but at the very minimum, it is clear that he has put much work into giving us our bible, and it should always be the authority, and any argument to be considered valid must stem from what we are sure is written by the Holy Spirit.
So if God reveals something to someone, it will never contradict scripture, and therefore scripture is sufficient for knowing everything about God that he wants us to know.
John 16:12-15
12*“Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13*When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14*He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. 15*All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.
I am not being sarcastic when I say, I would like to know how they could both be wrong
Catholicism, Gnosticism, Mormonism, Judaism, just to name a few have different views concerning God's grace. In all of these including Calvinism and Arminianism, God's grace is not the differentiating factor, it is who God's grace is made available to.
I see your point, but every single one of those other than Calvinism and Arminianism is void because they don't take the whole bible to be God's word.
I mean Catholicism is right there with Gnosticism in that it puts the reasoning of man over the bible. Mormonism adds to the bible, and Judaism doesnt accept all of it, and they have their own other books they add or place above the OT anyway.
So Calvinism, and Arminianism both argue from the base of accepting the whole bible to be God inspired and anything that is has a foundation there is at least worth taking a look at.
The "who" in the availability of God's grace is important because it defines an aspect of his grace (availability), and if it inacurately describes it, then it is wrong.
Jiggly who do you think God's grace is available to and why? I am genuinely curious.
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Amen. John 3:16 says it all in one verse summed up. God loves the WORLD. We have GOD given freedom to choose Jesus or not. That is basically it.
Amen, Jesus died for the world, whoever believes in Him as John 3:16-17 says.
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I agree on this. Til' this day I'm wondering why any "believer" settles for denominations and modified versions of the bible. There is only One GOD reflected in Jesus Christ. There is only one Holy Bible inspired 100% by the Holy Spirit. Period.
Keep preaching until you can't stop breathing! There is nothing in Scripture I'm aware of that says we should not preach to the lost, or specific groups. However, there is some mention in Scripture that explains what to do if some reject the Word. Simply put, move on to the next "city" so to speak. Never stop preaching. The majority are lost souls, some never known about Jesus - some hurt and refused the truth (but by GOD's grace and power can still receive the Truth).
