The Unteachable Christian: When Defending Your Position Matters More Than Truth

[NBTT]

What the unbeliever is seeking (we hope) is God. Yet that truth is first evidenced not by our words alone, but by the example we set in how we treat one another

I was just hearing a testimony about a Christian starting a new job in a small company and the owner told him never to talk about his faith unless asked. He agreed. After a while someone did come and asked: "There's something different about you, what is it that you have? I want that". He answered I have "Shalom". This actually piqued the coworker's curiosity.

Shalom means friendship, contentment, security, and health; prosperity, abundance, tranquility, harmony with nature, and even salvation. And it means these things for everyone, not only a select few. Shalom is ultimately a blessing, a gift from God. It is not a human endeavor. Source

He told his coworker that belief in Jesus gives him that special peace not of this world. John 14:27

We believers need to exude shalom in order to bear fruit. Sadly I still need lots of the Holy Spirit's help to exude shalom.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I've locked the thread for a time.
Between post #62 - 74 the tone of the thread changed dramatically.
Clearly the title of the thread was appropriate, however, enough is enough with haranguing each other in such a fashion that a new person to the site would have difficulty believing they are on a Christian Forum, reading words from those who profess to be in Christ Jesus.

I'll be removing them and the only explanation will what you find in this post.

I'd suggest rereading 1 Corinthians 13

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

I hope 12 hours was enough time for reflection, prayer, and reading of God's Word on how we should present ourselves to not only a dying world, but to each other brethren.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[JunoTheServant]

One of the most troubling things I encounter among professing Christians is not simply that they hold beliefs I disagree with. It is that some appear completely unwilling to reconsider those beliefs, even when Scripture is presented that directly challenges their position.

AMEN! This entire post is straight fire!! Love the points brought out.

2 Corinthians 13: 8
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

The truth is the truth and no one can fight against it. Which is why the bible says to try the spirits by the spirits. I hope you adhere to what you posted here.

In fact I will put that to the test right now.

Do you keep the Sabbath, which is the 7th day of the week as stated in the scriptures and if you don't why not??

 

[Christ4Ever]

In fact I will put that to the test right now.

Do you keep the Sabbath, which is the 7th day of the week as stated in the scriptures and if you don't why not??

This really needs to be on another thread, but if you read the title of it, and how you continue to attempt to address this specific subject in your postings, as a test of obedience, it does in a way fit the bill. Why? Because if you are stuck on the position you hold over the truth which requires the entirety of scripture and the covenant under which it falls as well as dating/calendars that must be considered. I believe, you will make it apparent soon enough which one you value over which. So, I pose a couple of questions to you as well.

1. I am curious Juno on why you are stuck on the subject of the Sabbath, verses any other commandment (OT)/ordinance (NT)?

2. If someone fails this test of yours, because I do not believe it to be one set forth as having one according to Scripture as a Gentile; does this then mean that a persons' Salvation or Damnation is the end results thereof?
Note: Meaning, do you follow it as the Pharisees/Sadducees in Jesus' time did, or as Jesus explained it to them, and us?

For what weight do you carry, and place upon yourself, and would do so to others that is burdensome to some, when you would test them unconditionally? At least, something tells me that it will be unconditional when you finally answer the prior questions.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[joestue]

I also believe our fall was inevitable. Adam was created in flesh from day 1. And the flesh is weak. This was by design. God placing the devil in the garden was to speed up an inevitable fall.

If that is true, then God would be evil.

The flesh is weak because we ate from the tree of knowledge too soon. The tree was there for a mature man to eat from, to put an end to the slow innocence-accidental discovery process of learning good from evil without sinning.
(Unless of course God did not put the tree there, and never intended man to eat from it!)

God did not place the tree in the Garden to tempt us!
Nor did God put the Devil in the garden to tempt us.
God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one, not even through an intermediary.
Every time God allows a third party, such as a person, demon, spirit to tempt a person, that third party incurs condemnation, regardless the outcome unless the person who is tempted by them intercedes for them. (which reminds me i need to continue to pray for a few people). As Jesus warns "it is necessary that temptation come, but woe onto whom through it comes"

reading too much into Jesus statement there is dangerous.

About a year ago i asked God for some time to be with a woman who i desire to pray with, to remove her desire for me, which could be a scandalous situation. in response i heard:

"I will not create an opportunity for sin"

-and that's an eternal thing. God does not create opportunities for the devil.

 

[joestue]

I asked a friend of mine, who went to bible college long ago, what he thought of the concept of God putting both the devil and the tree in the garden to speed up the supposed inevitable.

His reply was: "these ideas are not new, they have been around a long time".

"But why would you want to speed up the fall?"

 

[JunoTheServant]

This really needs to be on another thread, but if you read the title of it, and how you continue to attempt to address this specific subject in your postings, as a test of obedience, it does in a way fit the bill. Why? Because if you are stuck on the position you hold over the truth which requires the entirety of scripture and the covenant under which it falls as well as dating/calendars that must be considered. I believe, you will make it apparent soon enough which one you value over which. So, I pose a couple of questions to you as well.

1. I am curious Juno on why you are stuck on the subject of the Sabbath, verses any other commandment (OT)/ordinance (NT)?

2. If someone fails this test of yours, because I do not believe it to be one set forth as having one according to Scripture as a Gentile; does this then mean that a persons' Salvation or Damnation is the end results thereof?
Note: Meaning, do you follow it as the Pharisees/Sadducees in Jesus' time did, or as Jesus explained it to them, and us?

For what weight do you carry, and place upon yourself, and would do so to others that is burdensome to some, when you would test them unconditionally? At least, something tells me that it will be unconditional when you finally answer the prior questions.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/

Hmm the question was not directed at you. Jesus said out of his own mouth take heed that no man deceive you, anyone who doesn't want to be questioned is suspect. Eternal life and eternal damnation is serious business.

I will make a thread about the Sabbath in future, God willing. I doubt you would be interested though seeing as you seemed so annoyed in your response to me.

Title of the thread is the unteachable Christian so I'm checking to see if he is an unteachable Christian. I always asked that question as a check because the prophets and the apostles kept the Sabbath yet in todays world it's a huge debate. Not one place in the bible an argument was made about the Sabbath being done away with, they only discuss what was lawful to do on the Sabbath.

The way I see it a person is unteachable if he/she even suggest that the Sabbath is done away.

If you don't want to keep the Sabbath that is your choice but always remember the word Christian used in the bible was attached to people keeping the Sabbath. If that offends you, then I'm sorry but I'm not about to stop telling the truth.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hmm the question was not directed at you. Jesus said out of his own mouth take heed that no man deceive you, anyone who doesn't want to be questioned is suspect. Eternal life and eternal damnation is serious business.

I will make a thread about the Sabbath in future, God willing. I doubt you would be interested though seeing as you seemed so annoyed in your response to me.

Title of the thread is the unteachable Christian so I'm checking to see if he is an unteachable Christian. I always asked that question as a check because the prophets and the apostles kept the Sabbath yet in todays world it's a huge debate. Not one place in the bible an argument was made about the Sabbath being done away with, they only discuss what was lawful to do on the Sabbath.

The way I see it a person is unteachable if he/she even suggest that the Sabbath is done away.

If you don't want to keep the Sabbath that is your choice but always remember the word Christian used in the bible was attached to people keeping the Sabbath. If that offends you, then I'm sorry but I'm not about to stop telling the truth.

My apologies for intruding upon your question posed to Brother KingJ. I am sure he will answer you in due time. In the mean while I thought you would be able to clarify some questions I have, since the topic of the Sabbath is near and dear to you.

Sadly, though I'm sure you know the answers to the questions I posed, but you have decided not to answer them. Which of course is your prerogative but speaks to me of you being less forth coming in telling a truth you profess to hold dear. Which only tells me to hold you to the very words you shared with me in your opening, concerning those not wanting to be questioned. lol

Juno, by the way, you do not annoy me at all. You are not the first nor will you be the last I dare say that wants to dance around before answering questions that might bring forth the reason behind their own posting. At least before its time to.

Telling a truth, one believes that has previously received negative attention is usually the reason one presents it in this fashion, while another reason is because the person is a troll. I don't believe you are the latter but are what one would say is a person who is a bit gun shy, for having presented a belief previously that has gotten blow back from for doing so. So, the testing of the waters by asking the question you did to Brother KingJ, at least to me is reasonable. See Juno, I'm trying to give you the benefit.

Now to explain myself. I pose my own questions, because as a Moderator I at times attempt to ascertain a member's theological bend to certain topics. Do, they hold to something that is heretical, or that may need to be moved to a separate forum/thread more appropriate for the discussion moving forward so that the existing thread doesn't become a mix of differing competing topics.

I now hope that this explains in part why I asked you a couple of questions, and also how I see you not answering them. There is very little that I am surprised by anymore Juno. Sabbath teaching is not one of them. To explain in part why this is so besides my experiences here on Talk Jesus. In my younger days, I studied under the Jehovah Witness', attended a Seventh Day Adventist Church, lived near Jewish neighborhoods that had both practicing Orthodox, and non-practicing liberal Jews. This of course does not include the different denominations i.e. Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic, even Christian Scientist! lol

So, you can see that I have been exposed to quite a variety of belief systems, as it pertains to the Sabbath. I realize that I didn't have to share this with you, but I did want you to know, as I said before I'm not annoyed nor am I out to get you, if that is what you think I'm trying to do here. However, it doesn't mean I won't be testing you....

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[KingJ]

If that is true, then God would be evil.

I don't agree at all. That is like saying God is evil for making woman a weaker sex. It is what it is. God wanted humans so He made humans.

God wanted humans to become sons and daughters. In order to achieve this end result He created us and all things as they are. A- Z Humans encompass weak flesh + high intelligence + free will + Earth + Jesus planned for the cross from day one.

When judging God or anyone else you need to take all things into account. Judging 101. Well at least as many factors as possible. It is true as you previously said that there are inherent limitations to man's ability to 'fully' judge God.

The flesh is weak because we ate from the tree of knowledge too soon.

No. The flesh was weak from day 1. After eating the fruit the flesh became sinful.

The tree was there for a mature man to eat from, to put an end to the slow innocence-accidental discovery process of learning good from evil without sinning.
(Unless of course God did not put the tree there, and never intended man to eat from it!)

I like that you think laterally on topics. This is intelligence 101.

As I said previously, I believe there were a number of items that the devil could have tested them on. The tree was certainly one, clearly.

God did not place the tree in the Garden to tempt us!

Correct. But we do need to explain that God did create opportunities in which we could exercise our free will to sin or not to sin.

Nor did God put the Devil in the garden to tempt us.

God does not tempt people to sin. James 1:13 says God tempts no one with evil.

But He does test us. Genesis 22:1 explicitly says God tested Abraham.

The devil was placed in Eden to test Adam and Eve.

God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one, not even through an intermediary

Agreed.

Every time God allows a third party, such as a person, demon, spirit to tempt a person, that third party incurs condemnation, regardless the outcome unless the person who is tempted by them intercedes for them. (which reminds me i need to continue to pray for a few people). As Jesus warns "it is necessary that temptation come, but woe onto whom through it comes"

Agree. This is a very common argument that atheists / disgruntled ex Chrsitians raise.

They always try to pin the blame / evil on God.

reading too much into Jesus statement there is dangerous.

What statement?

About a year ago i asked God for some time to be with a woman who i desire to pray with, to remove her desire for me, which could be a scandalous situation. in response i heard:

"I will not create an opportunity for sin"

-and that's an eternal thing. God does not create opportunities for the devil.

Not sure I understand. I think you would need to give more information.

In my personal experiences with God, there have also been times I have heard His 'short, impactful, true and powerful words'. He once said to me 'Don't do it'.

 

[KingJ]

In fact I will put that to the test right now.

Do you keep the Sabbath, which is the 7th day of the week as stated in the scriptures and if you don't why not??

I don't because I am not a Jew. If I was a Jew I would.

Jesus said in Matt 22:37-40 all laws can be summarised into A. Love God and B. Love your neighbour as thyself.

All laws in scripture are compatible with those two and those two are compatible with all in scripture. We need to apply this truth to the Sabbath.

The Sabbath makes for a very interesting discussion as it was a law whose disobedience provoked a severe response from God. He ordained death by stoning for any Israelite who failed to observe it.

As Christians we need to understand why that is and if we are not going to observe it we need to be 10000% certain of our reasoning, knowing what God's punishment for not observing it was. God does not change His mind (Num 23:19). In other words just because God may no longer require the death penalty for certain sins after Jesus does not mean His view of the sin or His hatred of it has changed.

The Sabbath was a day God commanded the Jews to keep holy in remembrance of Him delivering them from 400 years of slavery in Egypt. It was a special covenant sign between God and Israel, the chosen people through whom Jesus the Messiah would come. For a Jew it is a sign of law A. 'Love God'.

I am not a Jew. My family tree was never rescued from 400 years of slavery. If it was, I would observe it.