MedicBravo
Active
What God has said on anything is the truth.
What your, your spouse, kids, and random people think are irrelevant if it is contrary.
What your, your spouse, kids, and random people think are irrelevant if it is contrary.
The Unteachable Christian: When Defending Your Position Matters More Than Truth
- Thread starter KingJ
- Start date
This entire thread is about interpreting scripture. Did you accidentally post in the wrong thread?
MedicBravo
Active
No.
Of course. Whether we can see it or not, isn't that the case for all of us?
With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
Twistie
Loyal
Interpret? You think Abba needs an interpreter the one who Created all things?
＼(◎o◎)／
It's obvious to you and others with saving faith. Not so obvious with head knowledge faith. James 2:19
If Jesus had told the guy to make sure to tell all his family and friends at the funeral that the messiah is here (the kingdom of God is at hand) and to follow Jesus immediately after the funeral that would be good by my finite judgement. Instead He told the guy to immediately move on from his dead family and follow Him to instead spread the good news to others. Jesus knows who has a chance to believe and who doesn't. His infinite judgement is good and just.
It's a scary thing to have one's salvation resting our finite mind not making a single mistake on judging the infinite. Proverbs 3:5
Schrödinger's cat (just for fun)
At the quantum level contradictory states can exist in superposition. When observed, the wave function collapses and a single state is found. A thought experiment attempted to expose this as absurd where a cat would be simultaneously dead and alive.
Jesus' foreknowledge of the saved and unsaved yet we having free will are contradictory states to our finite minds. Defenders and opponents of Calvinism logically feel the need to choose one or the other. I choose both simultaneously and get ridiculed by both sides. It's as if Jesus being infinite and outside of time is able to observe without causing the collapse. He can foretell who will/won't believe in Him and be saved without destroying our free will.
Abraham's and our faith test (crucial)
Abraham passed the ultimate faith test almost sacrificing his son and was rewarded. Romans 4:3
If you couldn't care less about Calvinism, free will or quantum superposition that's fine. Saving faith and subsequent obedience demonstrating the presence of that faith have saved you.
If you are the type to understand everything to the deepest possible level, don't forget your limitations and stay humble/meek. Psalms 25:9
So, was that the point you were attempting to make when you said the following?
Was the assumption that the man did not do as Jesus asked of him, then or later? In truth we do not know either way what transpired with this individual and his actions. For the verses in Luke or the other gospels that relate this story do not say either way.
I will say that your 2nd statement above I do treat as being valid.
With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
Let me try to say the same thing in point form instead:
- The important thing is what Jesus said
- The man's obedience isn't the point (bible ignores it)
- God is not partial
- God is not willing for any to perish
- A funeral is a fantastic opportunity to share the gospel (good news)
- Many people facing mortality are more open to spiritual truth
- Jesus declared those funeral people dead (He knows their eternal choice of unbelief)
- Follow me to to preach the kingdom to others (not to your dead family & friends at the funeral)
- Family and friends at funeral not getting the good news and declared dead
Why not preach to the funeral crowd first?
I've seen @KingJ on other threads limit God's omniscience to preserve God's goodness in his eyes.
I think Jesus' foreknowledge of the funeral attendees choice of unbelief actually preserves His goodness and impartiality.
I trust in God's goodness and impartiality and that He gives us free will to accept/reject Him.
Trying to understand things is in my nature but may the Holy Spirit give me faith as strong as Abraham almost sacrificing his son to trust and obey even when I don't understand.
We all have strengths and weaknesses. Together we are the church and edification builds us.
Why is edification important in the life of a Christian?
KingJ
Loyal
NBTT this is terrible.
Jesus only said ''let the dead bury the dead''. A logical and simple interpretation is that the father had died and needed to be buried.
You are adding assumptions and what if's. ''Jesus didn't want him to be with his dying father''. ''Jesus didn't care about the unsaved at the funeral''.
Jesus called him away as He wanted to impress upon Him and all of us the importance and urgency of reaching the lost and giving them the gospel. That fact debunks your terrible assumptions.
We need to be very careful not to add to or distort God's Word.
KingJ
Loyal
Proverbs 3:5 is talking about trusting God, absolutely nothing about judging Him. You can only trust Him after you have judged Him and He has passed. You quote Abraham, do you know that Abraham judged God on the destruction of Sodom?
You seem to be refusing to deal with the point I raised of us being gifted high intelligence to judge God and God being open to our judgement of Him. If God did not want us to judge Him He would have made as apes. We are not apes.
Your line is also nonsensical. ''Our salvation rests on us not making a mistake judging Him''...??
There are two salvations according to scripture. Our salvation rests on us hating what is evil and repenting of our sins. (Salvation 1 = humans that repent escape fire - Luke 16:19-31). Salvation 2 = Jesus takes those who repent and adopts them into God's family. If we believe God is evil and still serve him, it is evil of us. That would not be us hating what is evil.
Calvinists for example may serve the 'right' God, but do you for one second think that a truly holy, just and righteous God will consider ''followers'' who believe He is partial / pure evil as people after His heart? As true followers? LMAO of course not. A Calvinist is a shining example of a Matt 7:22-23 type ''so called Christian''.
----------------
Salvation and Christianity can be summarised as:
HATE what is evil and CLING to what is good and God will find you and MAKE you a Christian.
James 4:8, Rom 12:9, 2 Cor 6:17-18.
KingJ
Loyal
I am glad to read you say ''I trust in God's goodness and impartiality and that He gives us free will to accept/reject Him.'' and to see you quote Abraham and want his faith. This is not something Calvinists say, for a moment I was thinking you were one
.Abraham ''knew'' that God was good, just and righteous. This is why he blindly trusted God when asked to do something that on face value appeared to be crazy.
Correct. I was unable to reconcile with my mind how someone can be truly impartial if they are both 'Creator and omniscient'. I have always taught that God has to limit His omniscience to uphold being good.
But I have moved on 'a little' further in that space and realised that God can in fact be the Creator + 100% omniscient + 100% impartial and yet also 100% righteous.
God is all these truths at the same time. He cannot be partial because He is impartial. He cannot be evil because He is good. God is able to truly 'be' unchanging. ''He is who He is''. He does not change like a human Num 23:19.
Calvanists and opponents both cherry pick verses and correctly accuse each other of doing so. You are choosing to ignore the written word of Jesus calling the people doing the burying "dead" (unbelieving/unsaved). This label "dead" is no small statement to be casually brushed aside as it's coming from the ultimate judge Himself. My accepting all the word of God is why both sides ridicule me.
To say no to reaching those lost (at the funeral) but emphasizing the importance and urgency of reaching other lost has the uncomfortable impression of partiality to my finite mind. To the "beginning and the end's" mind He knows the eventual free will rejection of Him by the funeral goers so He is still impartial.
You misquoted me. I said: "It's a scary thing to have one's salvation resting our finite mind not making a single mistake on judging the infinite."
Your first line says you will serve Him so long as you don't see anything evil in Him. I know by faith that God won't do anything evil. I don't trust any finite mind (including yours and mine) to infallibly judge God. If I reached such a conclusion I'd pray for wisdom and understanding not stop serving Him. You would fail Abraham's test with that policy.
MedicBravo
Active
Funerals are for the living. The dead care nothing for them.
This further proves that Catholics are wrong.
There is NO post-death redemption for the dead person.
KingJ
Loyal
I did not misquote you. My salvation has got absolutely nothing to do with judging God and everything to do with me hating what is evil. We are fortunate that God is good and welcomes those after His heart into His kingdom.
God being good or evil should not affect our hatred of what is evil. The point you seem to not be grasping / dodging is that if we are fine with serving a God that a working brain deduces as being evil.....it makes us evil!
I agree completely. I would not judge a God telling me to send my innocent child to their death as good. Nail on the head.
But this is why Abraham's test of faith is so profound. Abraham was a very good man. Better than you or I. This is why God was so close to Him. This is why God could put him through a test that you and I could not necessarily go through. Abraham knew that this ''perfectly righteous and good God'' was testing Him. I am sure that he had a strong gut instinct / suspicion that God was going to stop him right before he kill his son. And surprise surprise He did.
If God did not stop Abraham, then my friend you would have identified an instance that incriminates God. But alas, God did stop Abraham from killing Isaac.
KingJ
Loyal
Calvinists definitely cherry pick. Opponents, depends on opponent. Cherry picking is evil. Something the devil does Matt 4. You are generalising and insinuating that all opponents of those who carry on like the devil are also ....like the devil?
I am ignoring nothing. You are overly reading into a simple line and adding to scripture what is not there. Much like cherry picking, adding to scripture can also be something very evil if it misrepresents God. You seem to be reading into it as a Calvinist would to push it as support and evidence of God being partial. Stick 100% to what scripture actually says please.
For arguments sake, he was taken away from the funeral to REACH THE LOST. The lost are all who are alive. If there were living people at the funeral they would qualify.
When someone is beyond hope they are either 'destroyed' by God or handed over to the devil. When someone is handed over to the devil they don't usually live long, if at all.
1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
You need to be very careful here. Whilst I appreciate you defending God as impartial we need to understand that scripture is always written in a way where God is 'surprised' by the salvation of the lost. If He knows someone is 'beyond hope of salvation' it will always include a sound explanation of why that is. Look at Sodom, the flood, the Amorites. Clear reasons were given for their destruction in order that all who love what is good may approve of what God did to them and judge Him as good, righteous and just.
Whilst it is true that God is omniscient, it is also true that God wants us to judge Him as being impartial. This is why we have the following passages that show God addressing people as responsible agents who are called to respond to His warnings.
Examples of God appearing to be 'surprised' by the salvation of the lost:
1. Nineveh repents and God relents.
Jonah 3:4-10. God announces the destruction of Nineveh. The people believe God and repent. God sees their works and does not bring the destruction He had announced.
Jonah 4:11. God expresses His concern for the great city and its many inhabitants.
2. God expresses grief over the wickedness of mankind before the Flood.
Genesis 6:5-7. God sees the wickedness of man and is grieved in His heart. He announces the judgment of the Flood.
Genesis 6:6 is difficult to reconcile with the claim that God simply created people knowing their rejection was inevitable and that their destruction was therefore the only possible outcome.
3. God gives the Amorites time before judgment.
Genesis 15:16. God tells Abraham that his descendants will return in the fourth generation because the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.
God gives a reason for the delay in judgment. The passage speaks of their iniquity reaching its full measure rather than saying that God had already determined they could never repent.
4. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Ezekiel 18:23.
"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"
Ezekiel 18:30-32. God calls Israel to repent and says He has no pleasure in the death of the one who dies.
5. God calls Israel to return to Him.
Jeremiah 3:7. God says He thought Israel would return to Him, but she did not.
Jeremiah 3:12. God calls faithless Israel to return and declares that He will not keep His anger for ever.
This is especially relevant because God describes Israel's failure to return rather than explaining it by saying He knew beforehand that repentance was impossible.
6. Jesus laments over Jerusalem.
Matthew 23:37.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
Jesus expresses a genuine desire to gather them, but they were unwilling. The passage places the emphasis on their unwillingness rather than claiming that He never intended for them to respond.
7. God is patient because He desires repentance.
2 Peter 3:9.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
God's patience is explained by His desire for people to repent, not by an assertion that He has already determined that certain people cannot do so.
8. God sends His messengers even when people refuse to listen.
Ezekiel 2:3-5. God sends Ezekiel to rebellious Israel and says they may hear or refuse to hear, but they will know a prophet has been among them.
Ezekiel 18:31-32. God urges them to cast away their transgressions and make themselves a new heart and a new spirit, asking why they should die.
KingJ
Loyal
Not sure I am following.
It is very important to try and understand why Catholics believe in and teach Purgatory. When you do, you should realise that you are not wise to mock them for it.
Catholics firmly believe that God is just and righteous. They teach non-OSAS and Purgatory. These beliefs work hand in hand. Non-OSAS only works if there is a Purgatory. God's justice is upheld because those who die young or never get a proper opportunity to be tested in this life, have an opportunity for purification in Purgatory. Good Christians who serve God for fifty years and stumble terribly in year 51 of servitude, get a chance to make amends in Purgatory.
Purgatory enables God to remain just and righteous whilst holding to a non-OSAS belief. I respect Catholics for properly defending the true nature and character of God.
Those who teach non-OSAS and exclude a Purgatory, well those people I have an issue with. How do you believe God is just and righteous when He can send to eternal punishment a faithful servant who stumbles in year 51 of servitude and to eternal bliss a criminal next to Jesus who only repents of his sins, has no servitude and only lives to praise Jesus for 2-4 hours.
I personally don't believe either are true. I believe OSAS. But whatever you believe, if God is tainted and incriminated by it, your belief is false. All who hear your teaching can be stumbled and believe God is unjust and unrighteous.
As Christians we must do better. Properly representing God to the lost is our 'one' job.
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
As a student I had an extracurricular interest in the new field of fractal geometry. One day I found out that Benoit Mandelbrot himself was coming to our university to give a presentation which I made sure to attend. He presented the latest advancements he was working on. I literally understood nothing. Neither did the math faculty all of which were PHD's in math. It was a humbling experience.
Studying God's creation in the STEM fields is also a truly humbling experience. The brightest of the bright can barely scratch the surface of the complexity of what God easily spoke into existence. Unfortunately high IQ is an obstacle to finding Jesus. I only found Him when severe illness took me down physically & mentally from my pedestal of pride.
God's word is the Dr Seuss of the full truth of God we'll only know in heaven. It's meant for giving us the mere basics of Truth so we can choose or reject Him. The bible contains straightforward concepts sufficient for us to love Him, trust Him and obey Him to finally be with Him. His word is vague enough for multiple interpretations to be valid which sometimes leads to endless discussion on non-salvation related details. I'm bailing out now.
We humans are dumber than we think. His infinite mind's thoughts are higher than we can imagine. Had God resurrected Isaac instead of stopping the test would He be evil? Don't answer. Food for thought... Full faith and trust in Him is my choice.