Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[Brightfame52]

Now who is it that God Justifies ? Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

He Justifieth His Elect. Not everyone without exception, but Justification by the God of the Bible is reserved for only a elect people.

Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Pardon is synonymous with Justification and reserve has to do with a remnant as in a remnant according to election f grace Rom 11:4-5

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now even though God will only justify His Elect, yet He does it while they themselves are most ungodly . He is Justified before he is made a holy believer, but while ungodly, and dead in sin Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:1,3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 34

 

[KingJ]

Yep I explained to you why from scripture.

I know what it says. He speaking to the elect/chosen. Look at 1 Cor 1:

24 ;But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 ;For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 ;But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 ;And base things of the world, and things which are despisedn, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:


Christ was made sin for them and died for them b4 faith. You act like faith died for folks sins

Conversion and Justification are different things. Yes the elect when converted find out they were already Justified by the cross/blood back at 33 ad/Calvary

Christ's death is the basis of justification, but Scripture consistently teaches that justification is received through faith, not years before faith.

Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God."

None of the passages you cited say the elect were already justified at Calvary and only discovered it later.

That remains an inference, not an explicit teaching of Scripture.

 

[KingJ]

Tell me about it

You havent proven that

I agree with those scriptures

I'm struggling to understand how your view reconciles with Romans 2:11 and Acts 10:34.

If God unconditionally chooses some individuals for salvation while passing over others before they are born, on what basis is He "no respecter of persons"?

You agree that God is impartial, yet your inference seems to require that He grants saving grace to some while withholding it from others with no opportunity for response. That is not impartial but partial. And partiality by a Creator God would imply to all that He is monstrously evil.

 

[KingJ]

Pay close attention to Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now the object of the believers Faith, is He God that Justifieth the ungodly ! Now if ungodly, then of course unbelievers. 34

Romans 4:5 does not say God justifies people while they remain unbelievers.

It says, "to him that believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly."

The person being described is an ungodly person who believes, not an unbeliever who has already been justified.

You are assuming that "ungodly" means "unbelieving," but Paul never makes that equation.

The verse teaches that God justifies sinners who believe, not that He justifies unbelievers before they believe.

 

[KingJ]

Now who is it that God Justifies ? Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

He Justifieth His Elect. Not everyone without exception, but Justification by the God of the Bible is reserved for only a elect people.

Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Pardon is synonymous with Justification and reserve has to do with a remnant as in a remnant according to election f grace Rom 11:4-5

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 8:33 says that God's elect are justified. It does not say that only the elect can be justified, nor does it say they were justified before faith.

That is the difference between what the passage states and what you infer from it.

Likewise, Jeremiah 50:20 concerns God's promised restoration and pardon of Israel and Judah. Romans 11 speaks of a remnant within Israel.

Neither passage teaches that Christ died only for a predetermined group or that people are justified while still unbelieving.

You are combining several passages and adding conclusions that none of them explicitly make.

 

[KingJ]

Now even though God will only justify His Elect, yet He does it while they themselves are most ungodly . He is Justified before he is made a holy believer, but while ungodly, and dead in sin Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:1,3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 34

You are conflating two different truths.

Yes, people are ungodly, dead in sin, and children of wrath before conversion (Ephesians 2:1-3). We agree on that.

What Romans 4:5 says is that God justifies the ungodly person who believes.

The verse does not say God justifies people while they remain unbelieving, nor does it say they were already justified before faith.

You keep inserting "before faith" into passages that never state it.

In fact, Paul explicitly says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God" (Romans 5:1).

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ's death is the basis of justification,

Wrong, it actually Justified them He died for, and reconciled them to God

Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God."

Which is also true

None of the passages you cited say the elect were already justified at Calvary and only discovered it later.

Thats implied

That remains an inference, not an explicit teaching of Scripture.

An inference based upon other scripture comparisons.

 

[Brightfame52]

I'm struggling to understand how your view reconciles with Romans 2:11 and Acts 10:34.

Thats your struggle, not mine

If God unconditionally chooses some individuals for salvation while passing over others before they are born, on what basis is He "no respecter of persons"?

Election is based on Grace, all deserve eternal damnation. There is nothing in any man or about any man that God shows regard for to save him, we are all totally depraved See Rom 3:9ff

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 4:5 does not say God justifies people while they remain unbelievers.

While they are ungodly, same thing.

The person being described is an ungodly person who believes, not an unbeliever who has already been justified.

The person believed God Justified him while ungodly, which God did, thats why he reconciled them while enemies Rom 5:10

You are assuming that "ungodly" means "unbelieving," but Paul never makes that equation.

It does, even worse. The word ungodly asebēs: destitute of reverential awe towards God, [contemning]1 God, impious
ἀσεβής asebḗs, as-eb-ace'; from G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G4576; irreverent, i.e. (by extension) impious or wicked:—ungodly (man).https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g765/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 8:33 says that God's elect are justified. It does not say that only the elect can be justified, nor does it say they were justified before faith.

God Justifieth His Elect by Christs death Vs 34

Likewise, Jeremiah 50:20 concerns God's promised restoration and pardon of Israel and Judah. Romans 11 speaks of a remnant within Israel.

Its the Church, same people under different administrations, that's a different subject which I can see now you are clueless about.

Gods Justification in the Lord Jesus Christ was promised to only one people Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Seed of Israel is Gods elect both of jews and Gentiles, the Church

You are combining several passages and adding conclusions that none of them explicitly make.

Doesn't have to explicitly state all the time, just be substantiated by other scripture

 

[Brightfame52]

You are conflating two different truths.

By the grace of God Im being skillful with scripture

Yes, people are ungodly, dead in sin, and children of wrath before conversion (Ephesians 2:1-3). We agree on that.

okay

What Romans 4:5 says is that God justifies the ungodly person who believes.

We been over this already, see past notes, plus commentary by Gill I provided

You keep inserting "before faith" into passages that never state it.

Its implied, one is ungodly b4 Faith, after belief one is no longer in a ungodly condition, dont forget that

In fact, Paul explicitly says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God" (Romans 5:1).

Thats true as well God given Faith receives the revelation that one has been Justified by Christ. Faith provides the evidence Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
That brings peace into the mind Rom 15 13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

May God be pleased to open up your eyes of understanding.

 

[Brightfame52]

Another scripture that points out that Justification is only for Gods Elect as promised is Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Cp Rom 8:33


33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The elect and seed of Israel are the same. 34

 

[Brightfame52]

Now on what account does God Justify the ungodly elect ? Its upon the ground of Imputed righteousness, those whom God Justifies, He doesnt impute sin, and those He doesnt impute sin, He imputes righteousness without works.

Remember when Paul quoted David, who said Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Now read how Paul understood David here in Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

See the correspondence of non imputation of sin with imputed righteousness without works ?

And of course we also know imputed righteousness is also equivalent to Justification. 35

 

[KingJ]

It does, even worse. The word ungodly asebēs: destitute of reverential awe towards God, [contemning]1 God, impious
ἀσεβής asebḗs, as-eb-ace'; from G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G4576; irreverent, i.e. (by extension) impious or wicked:—ungodly (man).https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g765/kjv/tr/0-1/

The lexical definition of "ungodly" describes moral and spiritual condition, not the timing of faith or justification.

Nothing in the word itself means "unbelieving" in the sense of "already justified before faith" or "permanently outside faith."

Paul’s argument in Romans 4:5 is about God justifying the person who believes, even though they were formerly ungodly.

A definition of a word does not replace what the passage actually states in context.

 

[KingJ]

God Justifieth His Elect by Christs death Vs 34

Its the Church, same people under different administrations, that's a different subject which I can see now you are clueless about.

Gods Justification in the Lord Jesus Christ was promised to only one people Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Seed of Israel is Gods elect both of jews and Gentiles, the Church

Doesn't have to explicitly state all the time, just be substantiated by other scripture

Romans 8:33–34 says no one can lay a charge against God's elect because God justifies them. It does not say justification is restricted to a predetermined group before faith, nor does it define "elect" as “justified before believing.”

Isaiah 45:25 speaks of “the seed of Israel,” but Paul applies justification in the New Testament through faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Scripture must be read in context, not redefined by combining phrases across passages.

Saying “it doesn’t have to be explicit” is not the issue. The issue is whether the conclusion actually follows from the passages used. At present, the limitation to “elect only” is still an added inference, not a stated teaching of the passages themselves.

 

[KingJ]

By the grace of God Im being skillful with scripture


okay

We been over this already, see past notes, plus commentary by Gill I provided

Its implied, one is ungodly b4 Faith, after belief one is no longer in a ungodly condition, dont forget that


Thats true as well God given Faith receives the revelation that one has been Justified by Christ. Faith provides the evidence Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
That brings peace into the mind Rom 15 13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

May God be pleased to open up your eyes of understanding.

Being ungodly before faith is agreed.

The question is whether Romans 4:5 says justification happens before faith.

The passage does not say that. It says God justifies “him that believeth.”

Hebrews 11:1 describes faith as assurance and evidence, but it does not redefine justification as something already completed prior to believing.

You are adding “before faith” as an implication, then treating that implication as if it were the stated teaching of the passage.

That distinction is still not being addressed.

 

[KingJ]

Another scripture that points out that Justification is only for Gods Elect as promised is Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Cp Rom 8:33


33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The elect and seed of Israel are the same. 34

Isaiah 45:25 says “the seed of Israel shall be justified,” but Paul explains in the New Testament that Abraham’s “seed” ultimately points to those who are in Christ (Galatians 3:16, 28–29), not a strictly ethnic or predetermined class.

Romans 8:33 says no charge can stand against God’s elect because God justifies them, but it does not define “elect” as “the only people capable of being justified,” nor does it state justification is restricted only to them.

You are linking “seed of Israel” and “elect” and then inserting “therefore only elect are justified,” which is the very point that still needs to be proven from the passages themselves, not assumed across them.

 

[KingJ]

Now on what account does God Justify the ungodly elect ? Its upon the ground of Imputed righteousness, those whom God Justifies, He doesnt impute sin, and those He doesnt impute sin, He imputes righteousness without works.

Remember when Paul quoted David, who said Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Now read how Paul understood David here in Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

See the correspondence of non imputation of sin with imputed righteousness without works ?

And of course we also know imputed righteousness is also equivalent to Justification. 35

Romans 4 is explaining David’s statement about the blessing of forgiveness and how God counts righteousness apart from works. It does not say “ungodly elect are already justified before faith,” nor does it define justification as occurring prior to believing.

Yes, non-imputation of sin and imputed righteousness are related ideas in Paul’s argument, but Paul still ties this blessing to “him that believeth” (Romans 4:5) and elsewhere says justification is “by faith” (Romans 5:1).

So the passage explains how justification works in Christ, not that it is applied to a person as a completed legal reality before faith and then later “realised” in conversion.

That is still an added framework being read into the text rather than stated by it.

 

[Bill]

Justification by Faith

Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead..

Rom 5:9,18-19

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood..to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time..Thats who Justified by His blood..

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ..

This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16,20

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Faithfulness Jesus Christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them.

Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel. But be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner.. 1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross. to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost..

Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood..

Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him..Jn 16:13-14

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them..

To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is fatal. And will not go unpunished. And only those not taught by our Covenant God is at peril.