Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[farmerjoe]

How does it contradict the words of Jesus?

What are your thoughts on the three items raised in the OP?

False hope? Do you not think a kid that you adopted as your own son needs to be rescued from your wrath and protected from your enemy?

Not believing in a rapture event makes a mockery of scripture and implies God is evil.

It is A full blown contradiction to say a rapture occurs BEFORE tribulation when Jesus said the gathering occurs 'at the end of tribulation of those days'. I'm responding to YOU and NOT the OP! It's a false hope to claim you are removed BEFORE tribulation! And your KID analogy is just ridiculous!

I never said I don't believe in a rapture! Get it right big guy! Then to claim that denying this diabolical pre-trib baloney implies that God is evil! WOW! You have serious issues! IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT YOUR RESPONSE IS HOW PEOPLE RESPOND WHEN DEBUNKED! You are an abomination to the Lord!

Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You have perverted the meaning of Jesus' own words where He said the gathering occurs AT THE LAST TRUMP!

 

[farmerjoe]

Very few big shots like MacArthur and John Hagee and the like admit making mistakes. Christians have trouble admitting mistakes and usually their mistakes are acquired from listening to these 'big shots'. Like you listening to your pre-trib buddies.

If the 'big shots' were to admit pre-trib is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that would destroy the authority, legitimacy and reputation of thousands of well-respected influential pre-trib authors! The guys who've grossly misled you.

In the 40 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the pre-trib! It's all contradictory fabrication!

These things drive good people OUT of Christianity and people looking in want nothing to do with us.
Pre-trib has become a cult within Christianity. Diehard pre-tribbers have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. That's why they've, "Close the Crash Doors" and shame and shun people!

 

[Dave M]

You also say believers can simply be protected through the tribulation. But the tribulation is not just persecution. Scripture calls it the wrath of God. Yet the Church is told plainly in Thess 5:9 that “God has not appointed us to wrath.

I said and will re say God can protect his church from his wrath, so saying we are raptured because of that is false. He protected Israel when he sent his wrath on egypt !!

God Cleary tells us he has given permission to the beast, to kill the saints,, if the church is gone there would be no saints to kill ! And please do not waist your breath saying they are tribulation saints no such thing !! a saint is a saint
Revelation 13:7
"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

 

[Dave M]

Very few big shots like MacArthur and John Hagee and the like admit making mistakes. Christians have trouble admitting mistakes and usually their mistakes are acquired from listening to these 'big shots'. Like you listening to your pre-trib buddies.

If the 'big shots' were to admit pre-trib is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that would destroy the authority, legitimacy and reputation of thousands of well-respected influential pre-trib authors! The guys who've grossly misled you.

In the 40 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the pre-trib! It's all contradictory fabrication!

These things drive good people OUT of Christianity and people looking in want nothing to do with us.
Pre-trib has become a cult within Christianity. Diehard pre-tribbers have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. That's why they've, "Close the Crash Doors" and shame and shun people!

going to be a lot humble pie served at the wedding feast !! I find so many good bible teachers that actually admitt they once believed the view of pre trib, but once they studied it more on there own confess it was just not there in scripture, I say many, actually I know only a few but they are my favorites

 

[farmerjoe]

That is very different from the scene described at the end of the tribulation where Christ returns to the earth with His saints (Revelation 19:14).

You also say believers can simply be protected through the tribulation. But the tribulation is not just persecution. Scripture calls it the wrath of God. Yet the Church is told plainly in Thess 5:9 that “God has not appointed us to wrath.”

Not being appointed to wrath is attributed to salvation - NOT a rapture.

What believers need to understand is that the word SAINTS often refers to apostles, prophets, and to ANGELS and NOT raptured believers.

Jesus returns with his saints - if you study this you'll find out that SAINTS refers to ANGELS!

1Th 3:13 KJV - 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints/ANGELS! NOT raptured believers!

b. of persons whose services God employs; as for example, apostles, Ephesians 3:5; angels, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Matthew 25:31 [Rec.]; Revelation 14:10; Jude 1:14;

G40 - hagios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G40 - ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare , ); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

www.blueletterbible.org

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[B-A-C]

But you are simply declaring that this must be the only gathering of believers in scripture, and then forcing every other passage into that event.

Yet in Thessalonians 4:16–17 believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That passage does not mention the tribulation ending, cosmic signs, or Christ descending to earth in judgment like Matthew 24 does.

So I gave three passage that specifically say "after", you give one verse that doesn't say before or after, (it gives no time reference at all). and assume it is a different event, I would say eh burden of proof is on you to prove they are different events.

Also why would Jesus need to "gather us to Him" again, if we are already previously gathered to Him?

 

[farmerjoe]

BAC, you are assuming the point you need to prove.

Yes, Matthew 24:29–31 clearly describes Christ returning after the tribulation and gathering His elect. No one disputes that.

But you are simply declaring that this must be the only gathering of believers in scripture, and then forcing every other passage into that event.

Yet in Thessalonians 4:16–17 believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That passage does not mention the tribulation ending, cosmic signs, or Christ descending to earth in judgment like Matthew 24 does.

You also keep ignoring two points raised:

Jesus said no one knows the day or hour (Matthew 24:36), and He described a sudden separation where one is taken and another left (Matthew 24:40–41).

That does not sound like the very public, globally visible return of Christ after an exact seven year tribulation at the end of an exact six thousand years, where every eye sees Him.

So the real question is: why are you assuming every passage about believers being gathered must describe the same single event, when the details clearly differ?

They expect different New Testament authors to cover these thing with the exact same language because otherwise pre-trib is debunked from the get-go!

 

[Bill]

I said and will re say God can protect his church from his wrath, so saying we are raptured because of that is false. He protected Israel when he sent his wrath on egypt !!

God Cleary tells us he has given permission to the beast, to kill the saints,, if the church is gone there would be no saints to kill ! And please do not waist your breath saying they are tribulation saints no such thing !! a saint is a saint
Revelation 13:7
"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

May Jesus fill us with his love and mercy

I've made the comment a few times, that the scripture, as far as Revelations is written for the Christians. It really doesn't make any sense otherwise. Why would non-christians even bother reading Revelations if all of the Christians were gone. I mean why would God bother warning anyone if he was taking all the Christians out? It just doesn't make any sense to me especially with the part about the mark of the beast. Why would there be such a dire warning over something that other people just plainly don't understand. It would be trying to tell a child that they have done something wrong when they don't even know what being wrong is.

 

[farmerjoe]

May Jesus fill us with his love and mercy

I've made the comment a few times, that the scripture, as far as Revelations is written for the Christians. It really doesn't make any sense otherwise. Why would non-christians even bother reading Revelations if all of the Christians were gone. I mean why would God bother warning anyone if he was taking all the Christians out? It just doesn't make any sense to me especially with the part about the mark of the beast. Why would there be such a dire warning over something that other people just plainly don't understand. It would be trying to tell a child that they have done something wrong when they don't even know what being wrong is.

There's no such book as REVELATIONS!

 

[KingJ]

But he does choose for us to reach out to the ends of the Earth, to preach the word. And it is the command of Jesus to do this.

Of course. Christians are commanded to preach the gospel. No disagreement there.

But that does not contradict what happens during the tribulation. Right now the gospel goes out through the Church and the work of the Holy Spirit. During the tribulation, scripture shows that God raises up the two witnesses and the 144,000 to proclaim the message in a much more direct and confrontational way.

Those who respond to the gospel now are responding during a period of grace where faith is the central requirement Rom 10:9. The tribulation, however, becomes a period of open conflict between allegiance to God and allegiance to the beast Rev 14:9-11.

It's not the command of Jesus to be so consumed over the Rapture business.

When Paul describes believers being caught up to meet the Lord, he ends by saying we should comfort one another with these words in First Epistle to the Thessalonians 4:18.

And in the case of this thread, I am arguing that a non-rapture belief incriminates God as evil. It is a Christians 'one' job to properly represent God to the lost 1 Cor 5:20.

Is Jesus States not to worry about the future, but to deal with today. We should be more consumed about praying for each other, trying to bring everyone possible into the kingdom of God.

No disagreement with that at all. Christians should absolutely be praying for each other and sharing the gospel.

But that is really a separate issue.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen people on this very website tell me how they are going to receive a crown in heaven and judge the rest of the world with God. When they clearly forget that there's only one judge. And to be honest with you I would not want the responsibility of judging other people.

All who get to heaven receive a crown. Those raptured and those who are tribulation saints. The only scripture I know of us judging is from Paul in 1 Cor 6:3, and according to that we only judge angels.

 

[KingJ]

It is A full blown contradiction to say a rapture occurs BEFORE tribulation when Jesus said the gathering occurs 'at the end of tribulation of those days'. I'm responding to YOU and NOT the OP! It's a false hope to claim you are removed BEFORE

You, like others, keep assuming that that line from Jesus in Mat 24 is the only gathering up. That is a false assumption and a reading blunder.

As I asked @B-A-C and mentioned in the OP. Outside of the moral arguments, there are two facts that all who deny a rapture need to better explain.

1. The end of the tribulation is a knowable time. Seven years at the end of six thousand years. Matt 24:36 clearly speaks of an event that nobody , not anyone in heaven or on earth knows the hour and day of.

2. We have a scripture that says every knee will bow and see Jesus Phil 2:10-11 and then we have a scripture that says one will be taken and another left behind Matt 24:40-41.

To continue teaching that there is no rapture after these two facts is to imply:

1. Nobody in heaven can count to six thousand years and nobody in heaven and on earth can count to seven years.

2. Matt 24:40-41 was mistakenly included in scripture.

tribulation! And your KID analogy is just ridiculous!

You are avoiding it by insulting it.

It is not ridiculous. A human becomes an adopted son Eph 1:5 and scripture is crystal clear that God will never leave nor forsake us Heb 13:5.

To disagree requires you to not believe in once saved always saved and thereby also believe that God can make mistakes of adopting children into His family. An even greater disagreement.

There is no need to further test a true Christian. If God leaves one with the devil, it is Him abandoning them. There is no ''turning'' them.

To disagree with me requires you to also believe that Rom 10:9 was either mistakenly included in the bible or that God is a liar.

Rom 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rev 14:9-11 is clear that if you have the beasts mark, no amount of faith will save you. Rendering Rom 10:9 as completely and utterly incompatible with a tribulation period.

I never said I don't believe in a rapture! Get it right big guy!

You have barely said anything. How am I supposed to read your mind.

Then to claim that denying this diabolical pre-trib baloney implies that God is evil! WOW! You have serious issues! IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT YOUR RESPONSE IS HOW PEOPLE RESPOND WHEN DEBUNKED! You are an abomination to the Lord!

Imagine thinking abandoning your child with your enemy that immensely hates you not be evil...

You have perverted the meaning of Jesus' own words where He said the gathering occurs AT THE LAST TRUMP!

There are verses speaking to two gatherings. One a rapture event pre-trib and the other at the end of the tribulation.

 

[KingJ]

I said and will re say God can protect his church from his wrath, so saying we are raptured because of that is false. He protected Israel when he sent his wrath on egypt !!

God Cleary tells us he has given permission to the beast, to kill the saints,, if the church is gone there would be no saints to kill ! And please do not waist your breath saying they are tribulation saints no such thing !! a saint is a saint
Revelation 13:7
"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

Whenever someone gets saved, they become a saint. Before Jesus, after Jesus, in tribulation, it doesn't matter. What matters is Rom 10:9 and its incompatibility with Rev 14:9-11.

There is an underlying reason that you and others cannot grasp the point I am making about God abandoning His children. It is because none of you properly grasp and agree with OSAS.

You believe that God still needs to further test us. Rom 10:9 is insufficient for salvation. It lies when it says 'you are saved'.

Please try understand, that that specifically is a good belief to hold to. You want to believe that a Christian should be able to endure anything. That is true and sound.

But when you grasp that Rom 10:9 is completely incompatible with Rev 14:9-11 you will grasp that leaving a Christian alone with the devil is evil. A Christian cannot be turned and will only be tortured.

In the tribulation there is an expectation by the devil to turn a person. This changes his approach. Makes life uncomfortable (can't buy food without his mark) or gives an ultimatum, Rev 2:10 type serve him or die.

As such, in order to avoid another long OSAS vs Non-OSAS discussion, you, @B-A-C and others should focus only on the two points I made to Farmerjoe above. Namely:

Outside of the moral arguments, there are two facts that all who deny a rapture need to better explain.

1. The end of the tribulation is a knowable time. Seven years at the end of six thousand years. Matt 24:36 clearly speaks of an event that nobody , not anyone in heaven or on earth knows the hour and day of.

2. We have a scripture that says 'every knee will bow and see Jesus' Phil 2:10-11 and then we have a scripture that says 'one will be taken and another left behind' Matt 24:40-41.

To continue teaching that there is no rapture after these two facts is to imply:

1. Nobody in heaven can count to six thousand years and nobody in heaven and on earth can count to seven years.

2. Matt 24:40-41 was mistakenly included in scripture.

 

[KingJ]

So I gave three passage that specifically say "after", you give one verse that doesn't say before or after, (it gives no time reference at all). and assume it is a different event, I would say eh burden of proof is on you to prove they are different events.

All three of your passages from Matthew 24 and Mark 13 describe the same event: Christ returning after the tribulation and gathering His elect. So they are really three witnesses to the same scene.

The passage I raised in Thessalonians 4:16–17 describes believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and it gives no tribulation timing or cosmic signs like the passages in Matthew and Luke do.

Also why would Jesus need to "gather us to Him" again, if we are already previously gathered to Him?

When Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation He arrives with all saints in heaven (those that were raptured, those that died in the tribulation and all others in heaven previously) and He then 'gathers up' those still alive on earth.

Jesus returns with all His saints:

Thess 3:13 “…at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”
Jude 14-15 “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints…”

Tribulation saints already in heaven before His visible return

Rev 7:9-14 John sees a great multitude in heaven, and it says they came out of the great tribulation.

Gathering those still aiive at His visible return

Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation… they shall see the Son of Man coming… and He shall send His angels… and they shall gather together His elect…”

 

[KingJ]

Not being appointed to wrath is attributed to salvation - NOT a rapture.

What believers need to understand is that the word SAINTS often refers to apostles, prophets, and to ANGELS and NOT raptured believers.

Jesus returns with his saints - if you study this you'll find out that SAINTS refers to ANGELS!

1Th 3:13 KJV - 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints/ANGELS! NOT raptured believers!

b. of persons whose services God employs; as for example, apostles, Ephesians 3:5; angels, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Matthew 25:31 [Rec.]; Revelation 14:10; Jude 1:14;

G40 - hagios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G40 - ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare , ); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

www.blueletterbible.org

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

On wrath, both of our statements are true. In Thessalonians 5:9 Paul says believers are not appointed to wrath, and earlier in Thessalonians 1:10 he says Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come. That’s why many Christians see a removal of the Church before that period begins.

Second, regarding the word “saints.” It’s true that the word can sometimes be used more broadly for 'holy ones', including angels in certain contexts. But in the New Testament the word is most commonly used for believers.

For example:

1. Romans 1:7 — believers in Rome are called saints.
2. Corinthians 1:2 — the church is addressed as saints.
3. Ephesians 1:1 — believers are called saints.

So when Thessalonians 3:13 says Christ comes “with all His saints,” it’s not automatically limited to angels. In fact, several passages describe believers returning with Christ as well.

For example, in Revelation 19:14 the armies in heaven follow Him and are clothed in fine linen, which earlier in Revelation is specifically said to represent the righteousness of the saints (Rev 19:8).

Both angels and all believers in heaven will accompany Christ when He comes at the end of the tribulation. (Also see explanation to BAC in post # 93 above)

Thess 3:13 “…at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”
Rev 7:9-14 John sees a great multitude in heaven, and it says they came out of the great tribulation.

 

[farmerjoe]

On wrath, both of our statements are true. In Thessalonians 5:9 Paul says believers are not appointed to wrath, and earlier in Thessalonians 1:10 he says Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come. That’s why many Christians see a removal of the Church before that period begins.

Second, regarding the word “saints.” It’s true that the word can sometimes be used more broadly for 'holy ones', including angels in certain contexts. But in the New Testament the word is most commonly used for believers.

For example:

1. Romans 1:7 — believers in Rome are called saints.
2. Corinthians 1:2 — the church is addressed as saints.
3. Ephesians 1:1 — believers are called saints.

So when Thessalonians 3:13 says Christ comes “with all His saints,” it’s not automatically limited to angels. In fact, several passages describe believers returning with Christ as well.

For example, in Revelation 19:14 the armies in heaven follow Him and are clothed in fine linen, which earlier in Revelation is specifically said to represent the righteousness of the saints (Rev 19:8).

Both angels and all believers in heaven will accompany Christ when He comes at the end of the tribulation. (Also see explanation to BAC in post # 93 above)

Thess 3:13 “…at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”
Rev 7:9-14 John sees a great multitude in heaven, and it says they came out of the great tribulation.

This is what Strong's says about 'the wrath to come'.

1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked.

I hope you are aware that the punishment of the wicked comes at the end of tribulation - NOT 7 years before!

(Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction.

1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It amazes me that pre-tribbers distort this passage and claim not being appointed to wrath is attributed to a pre-trib rapture. What an abomination!

On wrath, both of our statements are true. In Thessalonians 5:9 Paul says believers are not appointed to wrath, and earlier in Thessalonians 1:10 he says Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come. That’s why many Christians see a removal of the Church before that period begins.

Are you ever going to concede that not being appointed to wrath is attributed to SALVATION - NOT A RAPTURE! Probably not. I've never known a pre-tribber to admit their colossal blunders. They'd rather fight the truth 'tooth and nail'.

Second, regarding the word “saints.” It’s true that the word can sometimes be used more broadly for 'holy ones', including angels in certain contexts. But in the New Testament the word is most commonly used for believers.

That's correct. However, you've perverted this passage claiming it refers to believers when Strongs and Thayer says it refers to ANGELS. But why would a misled pre-tribber concede to that? It clearly debunks pre-trib!

1Thessalinians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Pay attention big guy. Learn how to use good resources instead of listening to Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey

angels, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Matthew 25:31

G40 - hagios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G40 - ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare , ); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

www.blueletterbible.org

Your pre-trib mentality can disagree with me, but for you to disagree with Strongs and Thayer who clearly say that SAINTS in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 refers to ANGELS is clearly a pre-trib abomination.
Mathew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

Have you ever admitted making a colossal blunder? These pre-trib blunders of yours are quite explicit.

 

[farmerjoe]

Many moons ago, like in the mid 70's and early 80's I was pre-trib. But after learning to use good resources like in Vines, Thayer's, and Strong's, I changed my mind. Quite honestly, I've never known a pre-tribber to change their mind. After all since when do Christians admit making mitsakes?(whoops! I remember ONE pre-tribber)

 

[joestue]

In Thessalonians 5:9 Paul says believers are not appointed to wrath, and earlier in Thessalonians 1:10 he says Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come. That’s why many Christians see a removal of the Church before that period begins.

or they see it as God protecting them during the tribulation.

 

[Bill]

There's no such book as REVELATIONS!

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

You can say that all you want, but it is unfolding. And it will happen for the most part during your lifetime. So I will enjoy watching you try to explain it what things are happening as they happen in front of you.

The breaking of the six seal, the breaking of the seven seal, the Antichrist, the two witnesses, the mark of the beast. All these things will happen in your lifetime, enjoy it

 

[Bill]

Of course. Christians are commanded to preach the gospel. No disagreement there.

But that does not contradict what happens during the tribulation. Right now the gospel goes out through the Church and the work of the Holy Spirit. During the tribulation, scripture shows that God raises up the two witnesses and the 144,000 to proclaim the message in a much more direct and confrontational way.

Those who respond to the gospel now are responding during a period of grace where faith is the central requirement Rom 10:9. The tribulation, however, becomes a period of open conflict between allegiance to God and allegiance to the beast Rev 14:9-11.



When Paul describes believers being caught up to meet the Lord, he ends by saying we should comfort one another with these words in First Epistle to the Thessalonians 4:18.

And in the case of this thread, I am arguing that a non-rapture belief incriminates God as evil. It is a Christians 'one' job to properly represent God to the lost 1 Cor 5:20.



No disagreement with that at all. Christians should absolutely be praying for each other and sharing the gospel.

But that is really a separate issue.



All who get to heaven receive a crown. Those raptured and those who are tribulation saints. The only scripture I know of us judging is from Paul in 1 Cor 6:3, and according to that we only judge angels.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Yes I know all about that, The Two Witnesses. I have openly revealed here in Talk Jesus who I am, of course who's going to believe it until the day it happens.

 

[KingJ]

This is what Strong's says about 'the wrath to come'.

1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked.

I hope you are aware that the punishment of the wicked comes at the end of tribulation - NOT 7 years before!

(Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction.

1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It amazes me that pre-tribbers distort this passage and claim not being appointed to wrath is attributed to a pre-trib rapture. What an abomination!



Are you ever going to concede that not being appointed to wrath is attributed to SALVATION - NOT A RAPTURE! Probably not. I've never known a pre-tribber to admit their colossal blunders. They'd rather fight the truth 'tooth and nail'.


That's correct. However, you've perverted this passage claiming it refers to believers when Strongs and Thayer says it refers to ANGELS. But why would a misled pre-tribber concede to that? It clearly debunks pre-trib!

1Thessalinians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Pay attention big guy. Learn how to use good resources instead of listening to Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey

angels, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Matthew 25:31

G40 - hagios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G40 - ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare , ); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

www.blueletterbible.org

Your pre-trib mentality can disagree with me, but for you to disagree with Strongs and Thayer who clearly say that SAINTS in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 refers to ANGELS is clearly a pre-trib abomination.
Mathew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

Have you ever admitted making a colossal blunder? These pre-trib blunders of yours are quite explicit.

Your entire argument rests on forcing “saints” in Thessalonians 3:13 to mean only angels. Disagreeing with you on this is most certainly not a 'colossal blunder'.

The New Testament overwhelmingly uses “saints” for believers, not angels. So that point alone doesn’t really carry the weight you think it does.

Also, appealing to lexicons doesn’t settle the issue. They list possible meanings. Context determines which meaning applies, and multiple passages show believers returning with Christ (e.g. Revelation 19:8–14).

On wrath, I already agreed with you that it relates to judgment. The question you’re not addressing is this: If believers are not appointed to wrath (Thessalonians 5:9), and the tribulation is repeatedly described as God’s wrath, how are believers present for it without contradicting that?

Now, stepping back, there are three simple issues that still need to be explained. These are more 'colossal matters' that you are not dealing with.

1. Matthew 24:36 describes an event where no one knows the day or hour. But the end of the tribulation is a countable, fixed period (seven years) at the end of the sixth day (six thousand years). Those two things don’t naturally line up as the same event.

2. We are told every eye sees Him (Philippians 2:10–11, Rev 1:7), yet we’re also told one is taken and another left (Matthew 24:40–41).
Those are very different kinds of events.

3. The criteria around salvation during the tribulation becomes difficult to reconcile if there is no pre-trib rapture. Romans 10:9 teaches that confession and belief bring salvation, yet Revelation 14:9–11 states that anyone who takes the mark cannot be saved. So the question is, how do you reconcile those two during the same period? Because one presents salvation as available through faith, while the other introduces a point of no return

The issue isn’t whether angels come with Christ, they clearly do. The issue is whether all these passages are being forced into one single event, when they naturally read as distinctly separate events.