God knows the future, but does he control it?

[Dave M]

God can do anything he wants! And I know he is sovereign and can intervene and according to scripture it seems like he does at times.

Today I read in a book that God gives us free will, and I believe this 100%, the way the guy described God ability to know the future but not create it. Like for example Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him, but Jesus did not cause that to happen Judas had a choice.

It is like recording a football game and then watching it with a friend, and you are able to tell him what is going to happen. God see's the future; he exists apart from time and knows the future in a similar way as someone recording a football game and replaying it.

This makes a lot of sense to me.
He put it this way "Prophecy of the future is revealed knowledge, it is not determinative, it does not force anyone" I like this explanation a lot.

But he does also intervene it seems, scripture says God hardened Pharos heart,

One thing I will add Is I believe every word of the bible and do not need to understand everything in it, my trust is in God, not myself

thoughts

 

[KingJ]

God can do anything he wants! And I know he is sovereign and can intervene and according to scripture it seems like he does at times.

Today I read in a book that God gives us free will, and I believe this 100%, the way the guy described God ability to know the future but not create it. Like for example Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him, but Jesus did not cause that to happen Judas had a choice.

It is like recording a football game and then watching it with a friend, and you are able to tell him what is going to happen. God see's the future; he exists apart from time and knows the future in a similar way as someone recording a football game and replaying it.

This makes a lot of sense to me.
He put it this way "Prophecy of the future is revealed knowledge, it is not determinative, it does not force anyone" I like this explanation a lot.

But he does also intervene it seems, scripture says God hardened Pharos heart,

One thing I will add Is I believe every word of the bible and do not need to understand everything in it, my trust is in God, not myself

thoughts

There are three items in your OP that I do not agree with.

1. God knows all that is going to happen.

If this was true then there is no true free will. This would not be a problem if there was no eternal hell. But there is. Therefore if God from birth made a vessel unto dishonour per Rom 9:22, God would be 100% evil. To say otherwise is simply madness.

The truth is that God is both as good as He is great. His omniscience is therefore limited by who He chooses to be (good Psalm 136:1, righteous Psalm 145:17, light 1 John 1:5). IE If it can be proven that foreknowledge is evil, as is the case with our decisions to choose life over death, then God does not know it. God can be evil, but He chooses not to be. God does what pleases Him Psalm 115:3 and being good and righteous in ALL HIS WAYS pleases Him.

2. It is like a football game.

It is most certainly not like a football game. Life is live and therefore Inaction can be evil. God chooses to be impartial to all Rom 2:11, Acts 10:34 and that requires Him to provide all with the same criteria for His intervention. If any from true free will repent of their sins Luke 5:32, they unlock His helping hands John 9:31 and He can come into our lives and influence them Rev 3:20 in a way neither He or us would ever have known.

3. God hardened Pharoah's heart.

This is an interesting point, but I cannot tell you how much I dislike your line and what it insinuates about God. It shouts partiality. As though Pharoah had no control. A vessel unto dishonour.

It is true that God foresaw his heart being hardened before it was. This could be God seeing what kind of person he was and knew what to expect. But it is not true that God hardened his heart before his rebellion.

Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.


Conclusion:

Impartial = true free will = limited omniscience.

God's impartiality is a limiting factor on His omniscience. Scripture is 100% crystal clear that He is impartial. This fact has to control our minds wondering all over the show on the word ''omniscient''.

It is near impossible for a human to grasp free will. We need to stick 100% to exactly what scripture says. It says He is good Psalm 136:1. It says He is impartial Rom 2:11. It says He gave us all high intelligence Heb 2:7. Our intelligence knows that if He created from birth a vessel unto dishonour, to endure eternity in a hell called the lake of fire, He would be evil. If you don't think so, you are not meditating enough on the topic. Imagine you are that 'unlucky' person. Would you ever say God is good?

As Christians we need to be so careful of misrepresenting Him on His omniscience and the free will topic. You cannot define the A-Z of God's character and actions off of one word 'omniscient'. He is both good and omniscient at the same time.

If you disagree with me, then you must be able to grasp God better than those prophets that clearly defined Him as impartial. If that's the case, please tell me how God was created?

Let's stick to scripture! It clearly points to Him limiting His omniscience to uphold being good.

 

[B-A-C]

Does God Know the Future? Foreknowledge, Free Will, and the God of the Bible

This is a topic I've been wrestling with and thinking through carefully, and I want to share where my thinking has landed. It touches on some of the deepest questions in theology — does God know the future, does He control it, and what does that mean for human freedom and responsibility?

---DOES GOD KNOW THE FUTURE?Yes — the Bible is clear that God has foreknowledge of future events. Isaiah 46:9-10 is probably the strongest single passage, where God declares "the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." Isaiah 41:21-23 goes even further, essentially challenging false gods to predict the future, presenting that ability as the distinguishing mark of the true God. In the New Testament, Acts 2:23 says Jesus was "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God," using the Greek word prognosis — deliberate advance knowledge.So yes, God knows the future. That part is settled.

---KNOWING IS NOT THE SAME AS CAUSING
Here is where I think a lot of theology goes off the rails. Some traditions — particularly hard Calvinism — collapse foreknowledge and foreordination into the same thing. They argue that the only way God can know what you will freely do is if He already decided what you will do. Knowledge follows the decree.But that argument falls apart under simple real-world scrutiny. I know where my son is going tonight. He's going to his girlfriend's house. I didn't decide that. I didn't cause it. He's going freely — and I'm still right. Knowledge and causation are simply not the same thing.Take it one step further. Not only can we know things without causing them — we can try to cause things and still fail. A raise, a relationship, a house deal — we've all pushed hard for outcomes that didn't happen. So the link between "intending something" and "it actually happening" is already broken in everyday human experience. The Calvinist argument, to hold together, has to claim not only that God foreordains everything but that He guarantees every outcome — which leaves no room for genuine human agency at all.

---IF GOD PREDESTINES EVERYTHING, CAN HE HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE?
This is the argument that I think is most devastating to hard Calvinism, and it comes straight from Scripture.If God specifically designed each person to sin, scripted their rebellion from before birth, and guaranteed they would never accept Him — then on judgment day a person can legitimately stand before God and say: "You made me this way. I never had a choice. This is your fault."That is not just an excuse. Under Calvinism, it would be a valid legal defense.Romans 1:20 says men are "without excuse." That phrase only has teeth if the choice was genuinely theirs. No freedom means no genuine guilt. And Romans 9:19 actually anticipates this objection — "Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" — which tells us this argument is not new. Paul's response appeals to God's sovereign rights as Creator, but notably he does not say the objection is logically wrong.Real accountability requires real freedom. And a God who manufactured sinners for damnation cannot be the same God described in 1 John 1:5 — "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." Those two pictures of God cannot both be true at the same time.James 1:13 settles it plainly: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." If God doesn't tempt anyone toward evil, He certainly didn't ordain and guarantee evil in every human heart from eternity past.

---GOD ALLOWS TESTING THROUGH OTHER AGENTS
Now to be fair — the Bible is clear that God sometimes permits others to bring trials and temptation, without being the author of evil Himself. Job had to face Satan's attacks, but notice that Satan had to ask permission and God set explicit limits on what he could do. Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted — by the devil, not by God. Satan demanded to sift Peter, and Jesus knew about it and interceded.The pattern is consistent: God permits testing through other agents, sets boundaries on it, has purposes through it, and is present during it. That is very different from God scripting evil Himself.

---WHY DOES GOD TEST AT ALL IF HE KNOWS?
This question hit me hard when I started thinking it through carefully. The Bible is full of God testing people — Abraham with Isaac, Israel in the wilderness, Job, and dozens of other examples. Deuteronomy 8:2 says God led Israel in the wilderness "to humble thee and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart." Deuteronomy 13:3 says trials come "that the LORD your God may know whether you love Him with all your heart.""To know." That is investigative language — not revealing what He already knows, but actually discovering something through the process.James 1:3 says the trying of your faith "worketh" patience — produces it, builds it. That is not the language of a predetermined outcome being revealed. That is the language of something genuinely being developed through a real process with real stakes.If God already knows every outcome with exhaustive certainty and has scripted it all in advance, what exactly is being tested? Testing with a completely predetermined outcome is not testing. It is theater.

---CAN GOD BE SURPRISED?
This is where I want to be honest about some passages that are hard to explain away.When the Roman centurion told Jesus he did not need to come to his house — that He could heal from a distance — the Bible says Jesus "marveled." The Greek word ethaumasen means genuine astonishment, wonder. If Jesus already knew exactly what the centurion would say, what is He marveling at? You cannot genuinely marvel at something you already knew was coming.When God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and Abraham obeyed, God said "Now I know that thou fearest God." Now I know. That word "now" implies God learned something through the test He did not possess as settled knowledge beforehand.When God saw the wickedness of mankind before the flood, Scripture says He was "sorry that he had made man." Genuine grief. Genuine regret. If He scripted every thought and action leading to that moment, what is He grieving? His own predetermined script?And then there is the remarkable statement in Mark 13:32 — Jesus says no man knows the day or hour of His return, "not even the Son, but the Father only." The eternal Son of God explicitly excludes Himself from knowing something. The standard explanation is that in His human nature He did not know, though in His divine nature He did — and that is a reasonable answer. But notice: even that orthodox answer demonstrates that divine omniscience can be voluntarily constrained without compromising God's nature. Which is exactly my point.

---PROPHECY — THE HARD QUESTION
I have been pushing against exhaustive foreknowledge, but I have to be honest about the other side of the ledger. Dozens of biblical prophecies came true with stunning precision — and some of them are hard to explain away.Micah 5:2 named Bethlehem as the Messiah's birthplace centuries in advance. Isaiah 44:28 named Cyrus by name 150 years before he was born. Isaiah 53 describes the passion of Christ in remarkable detail, written hundreds of years beforehand. Zechariah 11:12-13 predicted thirty pieces of silver specifically. Psalm 22 describes crucifixion before crucifixion existed as a method of execution.That is not pattern recognition or educated guessing. That is specific foreknowledge of specific events.So how do we hold that together with everything I said above?I think the honest answer is that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of His own redemptive plan and the events directly tied to it — because many of those events involve His own actions and His own Son. Knowing what He Himself will do is different from exhaustively knowing every free choice of every creature in all of history. And in other areas — particularly relational, covenantal interactions with His people — He may operate with genuine openness, genuine responsiveness, and genuine two-way relationship.That is not a perfectly tidy philosophical answer. But it may be the most honest reading of the whole Bible without forcing either pillar to collapse the other.

---A NOTE ON JUDAS AND PROPHECY
Judas is one of the hardest cases. Psalm 41:9, Zechariah 11:12-13, and John 17:12 all point toward him. Was he "made" to betray Christ?I do not think so — and here is why. Jesus said in Matthew 26:24, "Woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed — it had been good for that man if he had not been born." You do not pronounce woe and judgment on a puppet. That statement implies real culpability, which implies real choice.Judas was not ambushed into betrayal. He had been stealing from the treasury all along (John 12:6). His character made him the candidate. God foreknew that a man of Judas's heart would make that choice — and incorporated that choice into His redemptive plan without being the one who manufactured the man or the decision.There is also something worth considering here: if Judas had somehow not betrayed Jesus, someone else would have. The outcome was certain. The participant chose his own role. Jesus said in Luke 19:40 that if His disciples had been silent, the stones would have cried out. God's purposes are outcome-guaranteed without necessarily being person-specific in every case. The outcome is fixed. Who participates — and on which side — is shaped by their own choices.

---FREE WILL WITHIN SOVEREIGN BOUNDARIES
Here is where I land, and I think it makes the most sense of the whole Bible. God is the author of our lives and of our salvation. He is absolutely sovereign. But within that sovereignty, He has granted genuine human freedom — not unlimited freedom, but real freedom with real stakes.Think of it this way: maybe I could have married Jane and moved to Oregon, or married Sue and moved to Washington, but I was never going to marry Brenda and move to Arizona — that was simply not in my book. God is in control. He knows every possible outcome. But within the paths genuinely available to me, I am truly free. Not every conceivable path is open, but among the real ones, the choices are mine.The river banks are fixed by God. The water flows freely within them.This is consistent with Acts 17:26 — God has "determined the times before appointed and the bounds of their habitation." He sets parameters. And Proverbs 16:9 says "a man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps." Both halves are true simultaneously. Human planning is real. God's purposes prevail through and around it.

---WHAT KIND OF GOD DOES THIS GIVE US?
A God who can be genuinely marveled, who discovers faithfulness through testing, who grieves unexpected outcomes, who pleads with people to repent because He genuinely wants them to — that is a God you can have a real relationship with. Not a programmer watching his own code execute.He means what He says. When He says "choose life," it is a real choice with real stakes. When He says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, He means it. When He says "Come unto me," the door is actually open.That is the God of the Bible. Sovereign and relational. Omniscient and genuinely present. In control of the outcome, and yet moved by the journey.I do not have a perfectly tidy philosophical system. But I have a God I can pray to, wrestle with, and trust — and that is enough.

 

[Dave M]

I love that post Ray !! thanks for sharing and praise God !! I am going to read it a few more times and let it sink in.

 

[Twistie]

There are three items in your OP that I do not agree with.

1. God knows all that is going to happen.

If this was true then there is no true free will. This would not be a problem if there was no eternal hell. But there is. Therefore if God from birth made a vessel unto dishonour per Rom 9:22, God would be 100% evil. To say otherwise is simply madness.

The truth is that God is both as good as He is great. His omniscience is therefore limited by who He chooses to be (good Psalm 136:1, righteous Psalm 145:17, light 1 John 1:5). IE If it can be proven that foreknowledge is evil, as is the case with our decisions to choose life over death, then God does not know it. God can be evil, but He chooses not to be. God does what pleases Him Psalm 115:3 and being good and righteous in ALL HIS WAYS pleases Him.

2. It is like a football game.

It is most certainly not like a football game. Life is live and therefore Inaction can be evil. God chooses to be impartial to all Rom 2:11, Acts 10:34 and that requires Him to provide all with the same criteria for His intervention. If any from true free will repent of their sins Luke 5:32, they unlock His helping hands John 9:31 and He can come into our lives and influence them Rev 3:20 in a way neither He or us would ever have known.

3. God hardened Pharoah's heart.

This is an interesting point, but I cannot tell you how much I dislike your line and what it insinuates about God. It shouts partiality. As though Pharoah had no control. A vessel unto dishonour.

It is true that God foresaw his heart being hardened before it was. This could be God seeing what kind of person he was and knew what to expect. But it is not true that God hardened his heart before his rebellion.

Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.


Conclusion:

Impartial = true free will = limited omniscience.

God's impartiality is a limiting factor on His omniscience. Scripture is 100% crystal clear that He is impartial. This fact has to control our minds wondering all over the show on the word ''omniscient''.

It is near impossible for a human to grasp free will. We need to stick 100% to exactly what scripture says. It says He is good Psalm 136:1. It says He is impartial Rom 2:11. It says He gave us all high intelligence Heb 2:7. Our intelligence knows that if He created from birth a vessel unto dishonour, to endure eternity in a hell called the lake of fire, He would be evil. If you don't think so, you are not meditating enough on the topic. Imagine you are that 'unlucky' person. Would you ever say God is good?

As Christians we need to be so careful of misrepresenting Him on His omniscience and the free will topic. You cannot define the A-Z of God's character and actions off of one word 'omniscient'. He is both good and omniscient at the same time.

If you disagree with me, then you must be able to grasp God better than those prophets that clearly defined Him as impartial. If that's the case, please tell me how God was created?

Let's stick to scripture! It clearly points to Him limiting His omniscience to uphold being good.

So you really think God don't know All (⁠ꏿ⁠﹏⁠ꏿ⁠;⁠)

Seek the Lord while He can still be found (⁠◍⁠•⁠ᴗ⁠•⁠◍⁠)⁠❤

 

[Twistie]

Of course Abba know what is going to be? Why do you think He sent His son? Just for the fun of it? I'm sure that's so not it..

He new us before we was formed in the womb He new we were gonna hurt Him He new we would walk away but He new His children would return to Him because we Simply Love Him..

That's where free will come into play tho He new we would do Evil He still Gave us Life He still didn't twerk us to do what He wanted when He wanted He ain't force us to worship Him..if He was gonna force His creation to obey do you not think He would of just put Satan in His place when he went against Him..?

Seek the Lord while He can be found..

Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke

Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee"

Hope all's well

(⁠✿⁠ ⁠♡⁠‿⁠♡⁠)

 

[KingJ]

So you really think God don't know All (⁠ꏿ⁠﹏⁠ꏿ⁠;⁠)

Seek the Lord while He can still be found (⁠◍⁠•⁠ᴗ⁠•⁠◍⁠)⁠❤

I don't. I find two things absolutely hilarious.

1. Most Christians do for some insane reason just not grasp that foreknowledge of our decisions when He is Creator and there is an eternal punishment of hell, is partiality and evil! It is like an extremely 'duh' fact. As simple a fact as 1 + 1 =2.

2. How these same people who define God's nature off of one word, cannot provide even a single word on His origin.

The only good thing about @Dave M and @B-A-C belief is that somehow they are not Calvinists.

The mystery about God is that He is both good and omniscient at the same time. He is who He chooses to be. Just because God can 'know' something does not mean He does. If it can be proven that knowing something is evil, He does not know it, as He chooses to be good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

I am also surprised that holding to BAC and Dave's view they can still believe in a trinity. Was Jesus lying when He said He was abandoned Matt 27:46. Did He not know He was God?

Conclusion:

It is literally impossible to reconcile foreknowledge of our decisions to serve Him with impartiality as He is both the Creator of us and of an eternal hell.

 

[KingJ]

---KNOWING IS NOT THE SAME AS CAUSING
Here is where I think a lot of theology goes off the rails. Some traditions — particularly hard Calvinism — collapse foreknowledge and foreordination into the same thing. They argue that the only way God can know what you will freely do is if He already decided what you will do. Knowledge follows the decree.But that argument falls apart under simple real-world scrutiny. I know where my son is going tonight. He's going to his girlfriend's house. I didn't decide that. I didn't cause it. He's going freely — and I'm still right. Knowledge and causation are simply not the same thing.Take it one step further. Not only can we know things without causing them — we can try to cause things and still fail. A raise, a relationship, a house deal — we've all pushed hard for outcomes that didn't happen. So the link between "intending something" and "it actually happening" is already broken in everyday human experience. The Calvinist argument, to hold together, has to claim not only that God foreordains everything but that He guarantees every outcome — which leaves no room for genuine human agency at all.

BAC you are taking a very simplistic view and not addressing the A-Z of the problem. A catchy / sound right play on words. ''Knowing is not the same as causing''.

When you are the Creator of every atom that makes up a person, and at the same time know what they will do, it is 100% a case of ''knowing is causing.'' To say otherwise is madness.

Now that would be fine, a case of ''God is God, He can't help that He is God'' IF there was no eternal hell. The fact that there is causes a conflict with being good. Partiality verse impartiality. He is either surprised by our decision to serve Him or He is partial.

--CAN GOD BE SURPRISED?

I previously gave you many examples in scripture that point to Him being surprised.

 

[Twistie]

Oh I am not like debating or asking for opinions or nothing I'm just saying..Lord revealed this a while back to me..I really have nothing to do but ponder with in just about all day everyday I'm always asking how why but why smh..ya know He never once made me feel like I'm a bother like idk..n also I'm not a Christian imma a follow of The Most High...but if ya trying to insult me then I guess it would be Christian which I find that many Christians like to do..but anywho I'm not like debating I'm saying..

Not trying to sound mean but I stand Firm on what the Lord shows me I unconcerned with what any man thinks ya know

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of The Lord Himself..

But ye anywho

Hope all's well
◉⁠‿⁠◉

 

[KingJ]

Oh I am not like debating or asking for opinions or nothing I'm just saying..Lord revealed this a while back to me..I really have nothing to do but ponder with in just about all day everyday I'm always asking how why but why smh..ya know He never once made me feel like I'm a bother like idk..n also I'm not a Christian imma a follow of The Most High...but if ya trying to insult me then I guess it would be Christian which I find that many Christians like to do..but anywho I'm not like debating I'm saying..

Not trying to sound mean but I stand Firm on what the Lord shows me I unconcerned with what any man thinks ya know

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of The Lord Himself..

But ye anywho

Hope all's well
◉⁠‿⁠◉

I like hearing you say that God shows you truths. He does the same to me. What I know as an absolute fact is that God 1000000% good and righteous.

This is the stone foundation for all contentious topics.

If any theory or belief taints or incriminates God, it is false. Period.

 

[KingJ]

A common example used to prove free will is a car that crashes.

Many argue that God made a perfect car. A human got in, drove this perfect car like a hooligan and crashed it. Therefore the human is to blame for the crash and not God.

But what all are not grasping in this example is the fact that without God nothing would exist. God created car, human, their will, the space to crash and the object to crash into.

--------------------

I am reasoning from moral common sense, not philosophical tradition. The classic statement, “knowledge is not equal to cause,” in this scenario, is absolutely insane.

1. God created everything — nothing exists without Him.
2. If God knows our future choices, He would, in some sense, be causing them.
3. Being causally responsible would make Him partially responsible for sin.
4. Impartiality means no partiality, no favoritism. Therefore, He cannot know our future choices.

A God whose nature is defined as being righteous in all His ways (Psalm 145:17) cannot know certain of our decisions. They have to surprise Him. If they don’t, He is partial. And that, my friends, is wicked.

You need to choose: either God is partial, or He does not know whether we will decide to serve Him. You cannot say He is impartial and does know. They are mutually exclusive.

 

[B-A-C]

t is 100% a case of ''knowing is causing.'' To say otherwise is madness.

Why is it, everyone someone disagrees with you.. it it wrong, it is crazy, it is madness.
Anything else else incriminates God, anything makes God look stupid.

Do you ever stop and read what you wrote out loud? Do you ever think about it?

Do you truly believe you are more righteous and Holy than God? Do you really believe you can judge Him?
Do you really believe you have a monopoly of what makes someone righteous and good?

I think anyone reading your posts are wondering.. when did you take over and become God?

Do you think that anything you say contradicts itself? Not being sarcastic, just a honest question.

The KingJ theology.
"Because God created everything, .. He causes everything to do His will and purpose."

If you believe this you are absolutely 100% Calvinist. There is no free will, only God's will
and we have no freedom of choice. You cannot separate the idea that God makes everything happen,
(even our choices before we were born). ..and say you are a free-will, non-predestination believer.
I wonder.. do you truly believe God makes us sin? Do you truly believe He chooses some people
to go to hell/Lake of fire before they are born?

I'm fine if you do, I just want to know.

 

[Twistie]

A common example used to prove free will is a car that crashes.

Many argue that God made a perfect car. A human got in, drove this perfect car like a hooligan and crashed it. Therefore the human is to blame for the crash and not God.

But what all are not grasping in this example is the fact that without God nothing would exist. God created car, human, their will, the space to crash and the object to crash into.

--------------------

I am reasoning from moral common sense, not philosophical tradition. The classic statement, “knowledge is not equal to cause,” in this scenario, is absolutely insane.

1. God created everything — nothing exists without Him.
2. If God knows our future choices, He would, in some sense, be causing them.
3. Being causally responsible would make Him partially responsible for sin.
4. Impartiality means no partiality, no favoritism. Therefore, He cannot know our future choices.

A God whose nature is defined as being righteous in all His ways (Psalm 145:17) cannot know certain of our decisions. They have to surprise Him. If they don’t, He is partial. And that, my friends, is wicked.

You need to choose: either God is partial, or He does not know whether we will decide to serve Him. You cannot say He is impartial and does know. They are mutually exclusive.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations..

Abba does not fit in anyones box..His power Might n strength is all Holy All Perfect and All knowing

N lol Abba don't make care He is not the God of the dead.. best exam ya self..

Hope all's well..

\⁠(⁠๑⁠╹⁠◡⁠╹⁠๑⁠)⁠ﾉ⁠♬



Hope all's well..

ヾ⁠(⁠ ͝⁠°⁠ ͜⁠ʖ͡⁠°⁠)⁠ノ⁠♪

 

[B-A-C]

Many argue that God made a perfect car. A human got in, drove this perfect car like a hooligan and crashed it. Therefore the human is to blame for the crash and not God.

Have you ever cut your finger, stubbed your toe, been in a fender bender? Did you suet the car company because you made a bad decision?
Did you sue the knife company? The bed post maker? The Lego company? Do you blame God for every mistake you make? It must be nice to be more righteous than God. It must be nice to be able to blame every mistake you made on Him. After all, he created you.

Where do we draw the line? Either all the bad stuff that happens is Gods fault (making Him evil).
Or somewhere we have the free will and ability to sin.. (making us evil instead of God).

 

[NBTT]

This is a great thread. The bible encourages us to be bereans (ACTS 17:11). Thanks to all participants.

When I was 7-8 years old I asked my father (PHD electronics) how a TV worked and he explained it in a way I could understand. The Father's word is written for humans who cannot fully grasp God's attributes. We should always respectfully remember who He is and who we are. A difference infinitely greater than my example.

IMHO

Logic has limits (trivial truths vs deep truths):
When we look at QF (quantum physics) there are things that are not logical. From the book "Believing Is Seeing" by Dr. Michael Guillen: "Something can exist and not exist at the same time; something can get from here to there without traveling from here to there; something can be nothing and everything at the same time." He shows that QF and the new testament are filled with deep truths. To be expected since God created the world including QF. He shows that logic is limited to trivial truths. I would caution the use of logic alone to form our understanding of God's attributes which are deep truths, not logical truths.

MT 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I trust God and His love as a child and use the brain He gave me to know Him as well as I can. For the parts I don't understand I just have faith in Jesus. His grace is sufficient.

 

[Twistie]

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat..

 

[KingJ]

Why is it, everyone someone disagrees with you.. it it wrong, it is crazy, it is madness.
Anything else else incriminates God, anything makes God look stupid.

Do you ever stop and read what you wrote out loud? Do you ever think about it?

I like to think I do XD. You would have to quote me for a direct explanation.

On the ''knowledge is not causing'' = madness statement. I am correct, please see an explanation at the bottom of this post.

Do you truly believe you are more righteous and Holy than God?

Of course not. God is perfect Mark 10:18. Righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. I commit venial sins every day.

The issue is that you think evil is righteous and do not care that you completely and utterly misrepresent God to the lost.

Do you really believe you can judge Him?

Yes. 1. He gave me the tools to do just that and 2. He chooses to operate on our level.

He throws satan into fire and allows all the angels to stand next to Him watching it. He does not hide what He is doing. He wants all the angels to know He is just. He wants them to judge Him as just!!! Rev 14:10 They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

He debates the destruction of Sodom, allowing for a session of Abrahams interrogation in Gen 18.

He allows Moses to interrogate Him on the destruction of Jews worshipping the golden calf Exo 32.

Imagine NOT USING the brain and eyes God GAVE you to judge all things

1 Cor 2:15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things.

Do you really believe you have a monopoly of what makes someone righteous and good?

Monopoly XD

My friend, God gave us all the ability to judge and know right and wrong.

Heb 2:7 = He made us with high intelligence.

Gen 3:22 = He gave us the knowledge of good and evil.

I think anyone reading your posts are wondering.. when did you take over and become God?

I think anyone reading your posts will be shocked that you are ok with serving a god you believe and teach is evil.

Do you think that anything you say contradicts itself? Not being sarcastic, just a honest question.

You would have to quote me. I am not perfect.

The KingJ theology.
"Because God created everything, .. He causes everything to do His will and purpose."

If you believe this you are absolutely 100% Calvinist. There is no free will, only God's will
and we have no freedom of choice. You cannot separate the idea that God makes everything happen,
(even our choices before we were born). ..and say you are a free-will, non-predestination believer.
I wonder.. do you truly believe God makes us sin? Do you truly believe He chooses some people
to go to hell/Lake of fire before they are born?

I'm fine if you do, I just want to know.

This just shows you do not properly read my posts .

I can see why you say that. I have explained my argument on God's nature a few times now, so I will not repeat the whole ''interpretive controls of scripture on His nature'' explanation. I will just say that God is who He is. Who He is is 100% good and righteous. Therefore if it can be proven that knowing something is evil, He does not know it. It is not something that He can know. He is who He is.

The mistake that you and others are making is that you are reading the dictionary definition of the word ''omniscience'' over and over and over. And thinking that by properly grasping that definition, you grasp God.

Now in your defense, you go from that ''pure definition'' into a ''mad but well intended'' direction of ''knowledge is not causing'' argument. That holds water for about an hour or two. Unlike Calvinists who do not even bother with that. They go straight to pure predestination.

A simple way to understand my argument is to think of God's goodness as a limiting factor. But do not do that if it causes your mind to now go into the 'space' of God constrains Himself, because He does not.

It is very hard to grasp God. This is why I always throw into the argument ''give me one word that sheds light on His origin''. We need to stick 100% to scripture. And the most important scripture to stick to are those that define His nature. He is good, therefore He cannot do evil. Not, as Calvinists would teach and sometimes you on certain topics, ''He is good, therefore if He does what is clearly evil, it is good''.

KingJ - Creator of all + Good + Omniscient = true free will = good God.

Calvinists - Creator of all + Omniscient = no true free will = evil God.

BAC - Omniscient + knowledge is not cause = true free will = good, maybe evil , I don't know, God?

Calvinists are guilty of not applying scripture on the infallible / metaphysical impossibilities of His nature (good, righteous, just, light). You are guilty of not properly grasping / dealing with A. Him being the Creator of all and B. in other discussions, His infallible nature (good, righteous, just, light).

 

[Twistie]

Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall bel established.

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Hope all's well
◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

 

[NBTT]

2. How these same people who define God's nature off of one word, cannot provide even a single word on His origin

I always throw into the argument ''give me one word that sheds light on His origin''

Atheist scientists used to discount the bible and its made up creator. The accepted view was that the universe had always existed and thus had no creator. As science progressed and a beginning and end became evident they reluctantly were forced to accept the very uncomfortable now mainstream view of a big bang & big freeze. Now the universe needs a cause which is outside of time itself.

As beings inside time we only know the infinitesimal "now". The past has a length but is only a memory. The future has a length but is only a figment of our imagination. A creator outside of time would only have an infinite "now" that includes everything (no past, no future as we understand it).

The bible gains credibility:

When Moses asked who was speaking the answer came "I AM THAT I AM" and "I AM hath sent me". Also "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am". This is an incredibly profound answer that could only come from the cause which is outside of time itself.

How can a sin committed by me today be covered by Christ's sacrifice two millennia ago? How can I be crucified with Him and rise in Him two millennia ago when I only believed in Him in recently? To the creator God there is no difference. The wrath of God poured upon Jesus on the cross and each of my sins all happen at his "now". Abraham and you and I have a "was" but Jesus only has an "I am".

We who are in time must be very careful about logic with time based axioms/assumptions when defining the attributes of God who is the "I AM" outside of time.

 

[KingJ]

Have you ever cut your finger, stubbed your toe, been in a fender bender? Did you suet the car company because you made a bad decision?
Did you sue the knife company? The bed post maker? The Lego company? Do you blame God for every mistake you make? It must be nice to be more righteous than God. It must be nice to be able to blame every mistake you made on Him. After all, he created you.

Where do we draw the line? Either all the bad stuff that happens is Gods fault (making Him evil).
Or somewhere we have the free will and ability to sin.. (making us evil instead of God).

You are not understanding the point I am making. Please read the bottom of post #17.

God made all but He is not responsible for our actions as we are gifted true free will. Because of who He is, we can surprise Him with our decisions.

You are the one who holds to an ''omniscient, full stop'' belief of God, I don't. You need to respond to your own questions.