One Flock with One Shepherd

[Gerbolski]

The seed part 1


We will cover things, one step at a time.

We will start with the beginning of Romans chapter 9, so we get the full context, and in which way things are said:

Rom 9:1-4
(1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
(2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
(3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
(4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;


Here is a comment on especially things in verse 3:

(John Gill)

(...my brethren, my kinsmen, according to the flesh: he calls them his brethren, not in a spiritual sense, nor in a strict natural sense, but in a general way, as being of the same nation: it is a saying with the Jews…
..and he adds, "according to the flesh", to distinguish them from his spiritual brethren and relations; for though they were brethren in a national sense, they were not all so in a spiritual relation..)


So Paul still called the Israelites his brethren, but his brethren in the flesh, according to being of the same nation, but not spiritual brethren, that is with the exception of the ones who are saved.


So this is how the chapter starts, he had great heaviness of heart for the Jewish people which it is unto them that pertained the covenants, the giving of the law, the promises, and so forth.

Ok let us move on.


Rom 9:5-6
(5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:



Of course the fathers is referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and in the saying that says as concerning the flesh Christ came, points to that he came from the Jewish lineage, yes Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, but it was Mary, a Jew who gave birth to Jesus.

Now here is a comment on verse 6, that is specifically on the words: “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect”.


(Jimmy Swaggart)

(even though Israel failed, the Word of God didn’t fail; the Redeemer came)


Now before we go on, we have to remember the beginning of the chapter, in how Paul was in great heaviness of heart, for his physical brethren, the Israelites, for he wanted to see them saved.

And with that in mind, let us re mention verse 6:


Rom 9:6
(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Here is a comment on the words “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel”.


(Jimmy Swaggart)

(is meant to denounce national Salvation; in other words, one is not saved just because he is an Israelite)


Some Jews probably thought that they were automatically saved because they belonged to the nation of Israel, and in many scriptures of the new testament, we see examples of some Jews making their boast of the law, and boasting about being of Abraham’s seed, thinking that they were saved because of this.

So that is the issue it was dealing with here.

Just because you are an ethnic Jew, does not mean that you are a Jew inwardly, it does not mean that you are saved.

So now we go to our next verses:


Rom 9:7-13
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
(10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
(12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here is a comment:

(David Guzick)

(i. Paul shows that merely being the descendant of Abraham saves no one. For example, Ishmael was just as much a son of Abraham as Isaac was; but Ishmael was a son according to the flesh, and Isaac was a son according to the promise (At this time I will come and Sarah will have a son). One was the heir of God’s covenant of salvation, and one was not. Isaac stands for the children of the promise and Ishmael stands for the children of the flesh.)

So It speaks of the promise (singular).

It mentions the word promise (singular) 2 times in Romans chapter 9, and it mentions the word promises (plural) 1 time in chapter 9.

Promises Rom 9:2-4 (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Promise Rom 9:7-10 (7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

So Paul himself acknowledges that the promises (plural) did pertain to the Israelites, which were his kinsmen according to the flesh, and in verse 2 he was weeping for these Israelites to whom pertained the promises, to be saved.

Now some promises were conditional, and other promises were unconditional, and still yet other promises were both conditional and unconditional.

But the specific promise spoken of in a singular form, was pertaining to what would come forth from Isaac, which was the Christ.

Here are verses that shows the main context of what Romans chapter 9 is talking about, with an old testament verse that speaks of this specific promise:

Context points to salvation in Christ Rom 9:2-3 (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Rom 9:6 (6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Rom 9:11 (11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) Rom 9:27 (27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom 9:30 (30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Rom 9:33 (33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Old testament verse that speaks of this specific promise Gen 22:18 (18) And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

And now I will show forth new testament verses giving the interpretation of this old testament verse, here they are side by side:

New testament verses Gal 3:8-9 (8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Old testament verse Gen 22:18 (18) And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

And Jesus was that seed that brought salvation to the heathen, so the main context of Romans chapter 9, has nothing to do with the land promise, but rather has to do with salvation in Christ Jesus.

I will cover the land promise, and other things concerning God’s promises, in another post, and after that particular post, I will cover Galatians, and things concerning the seed.

 

[Dave M]

Now some promises were conditional, and other promises were unconditional, and still yet other promises were both conditional and unconditional.

Very nice write up,

I agree with a lot of it,

if you could expand on what you believe the unconditional promises were, so we could zero in on that specifically, that would be great

thanks

 

[Gerbolski]

Very nice write up,

I agree with a lot of it,

if you could expand on what you believe the unconditional promises were, so we could zero in on that specifically, that would be great

thanks

Already on it, just taking a lot of studying to make sure all things are right.

 

[Gerbolski]

What was done away, land promise and other things

According to the bible what was done away, or abolished on the cross?

Was it the promises? Or was it something else ?

Now we can mention things such as the old man being crucified on the cross, the enmity between the Gentiles and Jews being abolished, the power of sin to reign in our lives being broken, the enmity between man and God being broken, which is all true, but I will focus on a specific area.

Col 2:14 (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​

Deu 31:24 (24) And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, Deu 31:26 (26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

It was the law given to Moses that was nailed to the cross, that was taken out of the way, which a lot of it consisted of ceremonial laws, such as the Holy feasts of the Old testament, the priesthood and it’s duties, the Nazarite vow, clean and unclean meats, and so on.

And this was placed on the side on the ark, and not inside the ark.

But as concerns specific promises given to Abraham before the time of the written law, nowhere does it say that those promises have been revoked, nowhere does it say it has been nailed to the cross, and nowhere does it say that it is no longer for Israel, and has been transferred to the church.

And in certain cases some things point to a double meaning.

And some things are done step by step.

God’s ways are not our ways, we have to remember that.

New testament verses Gal 3:8-9 (8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Old testament verse Gen 22:18 (18) And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Concerning this particular blessing in Genesis 22:18, this was spoken to Abraham.

And of course it was pointing to Christ which is the spiritual seed.

Now this promise is both to Jews and Gentiles of course, and salvation is in this spiritual seed Christ, and that promise does hold true to Jews today, but it is conditional upon receiving Christ, for Jews today can get saved, that offer still holds true, in fact that offer of salvation is to the whole world.

Now let us get to another promise:

Gen 17:20-21
(20) And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
(21) But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.


Now concerning the promise given towards Ishmael, that has not been revoked, and there was no conditions of faith towards that promise, and the nations that came from Ishmael were not faithful nations, but still they multiplied.

But the covenant of faith, which would bring forth the Messiah was with Isaac, not with Ishmael.


Now here is info on who the Ishmalites may be today:


(Brave Search)

(... These tribes are associated with the Arabian Peninsula, particularly regions such as modern-day Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, and western Iraq….
...The term "Ishmaelite" is now used broadly to refer to Arab peoples,..)

Now what about Israel, is the promise of them remaining as a people still remain today ?

Gen 13:15-16 (15) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. (16) And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.​

Exo 32:13 (13) Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.​

1Ch 17:21 (21) And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?​

This is pretty evident that it was speaking of a physical seed, which came from Isaac’s seed, and what did it bring about?

The nation of Israel.

And concerning them being a people, and multiplying, which I am not talking about the land promise just yet, they would become a people, because of God’s promise to do so, and even when they turned their back on God, they never ceased to be a people, and they never ceased to be a nation, but they did cease to be an holy nation mind you, and they did cease to be a God following nation, and other things eventually happened afterwards, but I will get to that in a bit.


But they did not cease to multiply, and be a people.


Rom 9:27
(27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The bible says this:

Exo 9:7
(7) And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.


Even in the time of Pharoah, before they conquered the land through Joshua, they were known as a people called Israelites.

And in this time they were in slavery, and how many of them were actually true believers, who knows, but God does, and many perished in the wilderness, but God had compassion on them nevertheless, he saw their plight.

He did not give up on them.

And now let us go to the book of Romans.


Rom 11:28-29
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Now yes, they who have received Christ as their Lord and savior, have become the elect, because they received salvation, including Jews that were not given to blindness, but received Christ as their Lord and savior.

But in the case of Romans 11:28, it was speaking of ethnic Israel, that as a whole they had not received the gospel, therefore were enemies of the gospel.

And concerning them it says as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake, still his beloved.

And they are elect according to that they were called to be, which is a people, and a nation, and that calling God has not changed his mind on, nor the gifts, such as the land promise, it still belongs to them, it is irrevocable, God has not changed his mind on that, but even though that is so concerning the land promise, there is both a conditional and unconditional aspect to it, but in the end God does all that he can do, so that those promises come to pass, and all of them will (in some cases has, in one degree or another) come to pass, and God will make sure of that.

And one of those gifts is Christ, the one who saves, and even in that it will be fulfilled in Israel, for at the second coming they will receive salvation in Christ Jesus, so obviously that offer, which is a gift, has not been revoked, and one day they shall receive that free gift.

Now one verse that some people use to say that God’s gifts have been revoked to the Israelites, is this next one:


Mat 21:42-44
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(44) And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


Now what was the context here ?

Well it was the rejection of Christ.

And as a whole, Israel, and the religious leaders had rejected Christ, they rejected salvation.

So as a result, Jesus says that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, but in what way ?

Well the bible says this:

Joh 3:5
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now Israel has lost it’s witness as being an holy nation, a long time ago, but here it was given an opportunity to be restored in that way through first entering into God’s spiritual kingdom through salvation, but they refused it.

So God went to another, he went to the Gentiles, which received him.

And now the church is that witness.

But does that mean that the promise of salvation has been completely revoked to the Jews, of course not, and does that mean Abraham’s promise for them to be a nation has been revoke ?

Not according to Romans.

Many of those promises, if not all in some degree, have a double meaning.

Here are things that the bible says, one towards Israel, and one towards the church:

Israel Exo 19:6 (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.​

The church 1Pe 2:9 (9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:​

Now Israel was called to be an holy nation, and at certain points of their history, they were, although never perfect of course; they had a witness in the time of king David, and other good kings, but for the most part, it was like a yoyo, and eventually they had completely lost their witness.

And then were eventually dispersed, through the many nations who conquered them, such as Babylon, Persia, and so on.

Now via the church, right now, it is the witness in the earth, and not Israel, even though Israel still remains a people, and a nation.

And if you look at church history, even the church has failed as a whole, in being that consistent witness.

Now of course in the book of Acts, it was a great witness, but even by the time of the end of John’s ministry, we see a lot of the 7 churches falling into even heresies, but of course Philadelphia and Smyrna maintained it’s witness.


And not long after Paul’s was off the scene other wolves came in.

And in the time of Constantine and Augustine, an apostasy took place.


So it was also a yoyo effect in church history, a great witness, not so great, and so on and so forth.

But now we get closer to our time.

The bible says this:


1Ti 4:1
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


2Th 2:3
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Today, we are seeing a major departing from the faith, even an apostasy.


And thank God for the ones that still hold true and are still a witness.

But all these things will have to be restored.

And God is a God of restoration.

So now let us get to the land promise, and then we will talk about this restoration.


Israel’s land promise


Gen 17:8
(8) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

This is a forever promise, and God promised it to Abraham.


And in this verse, God promised to give it to Abraham’s seed, and it was in the seed of Isaac that it was to take place.


So at this point, God did not mention a condition, but when it was time to conquer the land, and take it for possession, through Joshua, there was indeed conditions, which was faith and obedience.

And land was indeed conquered through Joshua, so that finally Israel could be a nation in it’s own land.

And it did become that.

But then we get to our next verses:


Eze 36:18-19
(18) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
(19) And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

So they became a disobedient people, and therefore were scattered among the nations.

And it was for a very long time that they were scattered, and that Israel was occupied by various nations.

But then we go to verses that concern the valley of dry bones:


Israel back in their land without breath

Eze 37:12 (12) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:7-8 (7) So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. (8) And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

If you want more details on the valley of dry bones, look into the thread : "GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE and "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY"

And in this case, it shows something that God himself does, without requiring faith.

He brings Israel back to their own land, as ones having no breath in them, or in an unsaved state.

And these verses go along with this one:


Isa 66:8
(8) Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.


But why would God bring Israel to their own land in an unsaved state, when it required faith to conquer the land at the beginning ?


Well in the original promise, God said he would do it, and he can do so along with faith, and he can do so on his own.


And this took place in 1948, when Israel became back a nation.

Well one thing I know is that God does have, and does show compassion at times.

And he did towards the Israelites who were in slavery in Egypt, and could he have decided on his own, to have mercy upon the plight of the Israelites in the 1930’s when world war 2 took place, and many Jews were in concentration camps ?

He had compassion on the Jews in slavery in Egypt, and I believe also that he had compassion upon the Jews in the 1940’s which went through many atrocities, which one of the worse was concentration camps.

And if we look at the bible, we know in the tribulation period there will be a temple, and sacrifices will be resumed, and Satan through the Antichrist shall go after the woman, which is Israel.

So God may have a reason, to have brought back Israel in an unsaved state, to their own land, because them being in their own land, will eventually bring about a physical temple, and sacrifices, to the eventual point, that when the antichrist marches into the temple, and proclaims himself as God, that some of their eyes will be opened to who the antichrist is, and to open their eyes to seeing the one they crucified was the actual Messiah.

I think he brings them back to their land, first of all to show them compassion, and then eventually for the opening up of their eyes, but even though that is so, of some Israelites’ eyes being open at the mid point of the tribulation, they will also forgo another dispersion, at the mid point of the tribulation period.


Israel back in their land with breath

Eze 37:13-14 (13) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, (14) And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.​

Eze 37:9-10 (9) Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. (10) So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Now at the end of the tribulation period, at about the time of the second coming, is when Israel is finally back in their land, but as saved people, ones walking by faith.


So what will God do in the end ?

Well in the millennial reign, God restores Israel to it’s rightful place, and he restores the church in it’s rightful place.


In the millennial reign, there is going to be the church, the Israeli nation, and the nations.

The church shall have glorified bodies, and be as the angels, not giving physical birth.

But the nations, will be giving physical birth, but people will grow older in that time.

Israel shall inherit all it’s land and then some, and the nations shall inherit what it inherits, but the church, it seems shall inherit the whole earth.


And even in the time of eternity, when sin and death is completely done, and were there is no more sickness, it seems that there will be nations.

Rev 22:2
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

What does it mean via the healing of the nations, when there shall be no sickness ?

I do not know, but when we get there, we will know.


So God’s plan, is not to do away with Israel or the church, for he is in the restoration business, restoration business, restoration business ! ! !

I will get more into the spiritual seed, and the physical seed, when we cover Galatians, yes even that verse of the one seed in Galatians, and more about double fulfillments.

 

[Dave M]

But as concerns specific promises given to Abraham before the time of the written law, nowhere does it say that those promises have been revoked, nowhere does it say it has been nailed to the cross, and nowhere does it say that it is no longer for Israel, and has been transferred to the church.

And in certain cases some things point to a double meaning. as they now have a new convent making the old obsolete.

but it does say the land promise and all God promised them has been fulfilled, could it be that it was for them and not the the future Jew. I read the below verse and think it is a settled matter.

Kings 8-56
“Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant.

as they now have a new convent making the old obsolete.

Hebrew 8-13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

I have to agree with some things pointing to a double meaning,

I have to go will dive into this tomorrow, have a good night

 

[Gerbolski]

but it does say the land promise and all God promised them has been fulfilled, could it be that it was for them and not the the future Jew. I read the below verse and think it is a settled matter.

Kings 8-56
“Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant.

as they now have a new convent making the old obsolete.

Hebrew 8-13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

I have to agree with some things pointing to a double meaning,

I have to go will dive into this tomorrow, have a good night

I would disagree that kings makes the land promise obsolete, for the land is a promise to them forever, regardless if it was fulfilled in some manner at one time or another, if your in the land, and the land becomes lost, that is not forever.

Eze 36:24-26
(24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
(26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

This is way past the time of Kings, so does that mean that the verse in Kings, makes the verse in Ezekiel obsolete ?

Obviously not.

And this is a future promise, in the time of the second coming.

And Galatians will reaffirm things.

 

[Gerbolski]

It is not just having the land that counts, but if the land gets lost, to get it back at some point, and then at some point to retain the land.

And it is a forever promise.

 

[Gerbolski]

But as concerns specific promises given to Abraham before the time of the written law, nowhere does it say that those promises have been revoked, nowhere does it say it has been nailed to the cross, and nowhere does it say that it is no longer for Israel, and has been transferred to the church.

And in certain cases some things point to a double meaning.

This was my actual quotation .

I did not mention the last part you quoted me as saying, which says :"as they now have a new convent making the old obsolete."

And yes I will look into those verses in Hebrews, which would not contradict Galatians or Romans.

 

[Gerbolski]

Eze 36:24-26
(24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
(26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

In Ezekiel's time, Israel was a rebellious house, and they will not come back to God as a nation until the second coming, so how can these verses be revoked, when it has not even happened yet ?

It was a prophecy.

It almost seems that some (not all) really do not want Israel to be restored.

 

[Gerbolski]

The Hebrews thing


Heb 8:5-7
(5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
(6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


The covenant spoken of in Hebrews Chapter 8, as being the first covenant, was the covenant that Moses received on Mount Sinai, which is very clear here.

And the second covenant of course is the new covenant.

Heb 8:9-10
(9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Here is a comment on the words: "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers".

(Jimmy Swaggart)

(refers to the law of Moses, which was given some fifty days after Israel was delivered from Egypt)

So the ones that were brought out of Egypt for the most part, did not continue in God's old covenant given to Moses on mount Sinai, and the old covenant could not set free from sin, that is why a new covenant was needed.

And the fathers it is speaking of, is people like Moses, Aaron, and Joshua.

This has nothing to do with the Abrahamic covenant.

And of course Israel as a nation were not saved during this time of Hebrews, but they will receive the benefits of new covenant salvation, in the time of the second coming.

 

[Gerbolski]

This is way past the time of Kings, so does that mean that the verse in Kings, makes the verse in Ezekiel obsolete ?

I know that in I kings chapter 8, that it is dated to 1004 b.c., but Ezekiel chapter 36, is dated to 587 b.c., which is quite a distance of time.

And yes Kings may be pointing back to the time of Joshua, but nevertheless, they had the land in their hands back then to whatever degree.

It is obvious that Kings does not cancel the future prophecy in Ezekiel.

Though there is parts of 2 Kings, especially the end chapter, that seems to touch the time of Ezekiel, which chapter 25, is dated to 588 b.c. .

I like to relook at what I say.

And also correct what I say.

 

[Gerbolski]

When covering Hebrews, I forgot to mention the scripture that Dave M was referring to, which is:

Heb 8:13
(13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Which we have shown that it is referring to what is known as the Mosaic law, that is the first one that was made old.

 

[Gerbolski]

The Galatians thing, and the seed part 2

Now let us get into the context of what Galatians chapter 3, is really talking about:


Gal 3:6-9
(6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
(7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
(9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Gal 3:13-14
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Now it is pretty evident what it is talking about here, and that blessing that came upon the nations, which was promised to Abraham, was Christ.

So the specific promise (singular), was really pointing to salvation in Christ Jesus, which is when the promise of the Spirit comes in us.


Gal 3:15-16
(15) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


We have to read these verses, very carefully.

In verse 16, it mentions the word promises in plural form.


And in this specific case, it is speaking of the many promises made to Abraham, being made a people, the land, and the promise of Christ etc.


Now it says to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.

Now these specific promises came through the lineage of Isaac, one lineage, and not Isaac and Ishmael.

It says, to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, And to seeds, as of many: but as one.


So it first mentions Abraham, and his seed, and it mentions this seed as being one seed, and in Isaac, that is one seed, for in Isaac came everything, for what proceedeth from Isaac was Israel, and the eventual Christ, it is one seed that has brought about all of this.


So it says to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


So it says the words as of one.

It first covers the one seed in Isaac, then it says this, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Who is it speaking to, when it says and to thy seed ?

He was speaking to the Galatians believers, which in essence was speaking to the church.

And to thy seed church, which is Christ.


So the one seed is Isaac, but from this one seed came Israel and Christ, and then the seed seems to get expanded to include the spiritual seed Christ.

One physical seed in Isaac, which expands to the spiritual seed Christ.

The physical seed in Isaac, brought about a physical nation, but what about the spiritual seed, is Christ known as a seed ?


1Pe 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Jesus is the word, and it is by the word that we have been born again, every born again believer, comes from the spiritual seed Christ Jesus, for we are the offspring of the spiritual seed.

Exo 19:6 (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1Pe 2:9 (9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:​

From Isaac’s physical seed, came about a physical nation, which was suppose to walk as holy people.


And from Christ the spiritual seed, came about as spiritual nation of born again believers.

Let us go back to our verses:


Gal 3:15-16
(15) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


So it seems, in some fashion, that the promises plural seem to overlap into the physical, and spiritual seed.


Both seeds are to multiply, both are to be a nation of some sort, one inherits a specific land, and is promised to return to this land in a saved state, but concerning the church it seems that they will also inherit the Israelie land, and the whole earth, but this (concerning the church) will be done in the millennial reign.

So there are double meanings in the promises.

And none on either side of the Isle, whether the physical seed or the spiritual seed are denied these promises.


Gal 3:27-29
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


In this case via baptism, it is not referring to water baptism, but rather to what happens in us at salvation.

And in Christ we are all equal with each other, there is no advantage in being Greek, or Jew, in being female or male, or bond or free.

And here it is not saying that ethnicity no longer exist, but that we are all one in Christ or equal in status in Christ.

For if it is saying that ethnicity no longer exists, then what about being male and female, obviously if someone is a male, he is a male, and if someone is a female, they are a female.


1Co 10:32
(32) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:


Paul here, acknowledges ethnic Jews, ethnic Gentiles, and the church, Paul was not living in a delusion.

And if you are part of the spiritual seed Christ, then you are included into Abraham’s seed.

Here it is not pitting the physical seed against the spiritual seed, but many people tend to pit scripture against scripture.


Anyhow, Abraham’s promises are still in effect.

 

[Dave M]

for the land is a promise to them forever, regardless if it was fulfilled in some manner at one time or another, if your in the land, and the land becomes lost, that is not forever.

thanks for reply, I am not certain myself, but somethings I consider when contemplating.

Does forever mean forever, can it really mean forever in Hebrew? I think if we do a in depth study of the word forever in the Hebrew meaning it is not the same meaning as forever in English.

Steve Gregg, host of

The Narrow Path
, emphasizes that the biblical terms often translated as "forever" or "eternal" do not always mean "infinite duration" in the original languages. In his teachings and book, All You Want to Know About Hell, he explores how these words—specifically the Hebrew olam and the Greek aionios—frequently refer to an "age" or a duration of time that is long but potentially finite

And when I consider God's says he is going create a new heaven and earth, well its really hard to believe that people get some land specific land forever when God is going to destroy all and create new.

2 Peter 3:13
But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The word fulfilled and all came to pass are using terms using to describe the promises made to Israel is a done deal. Just like Jesus has fulfilled the law and the law is a done deal. This is OT stuff, not concerning the NT in a sense,s is my thought process, we do not see the mention of this promises of the land or blessing and curses in the NT if Israel obey or disobeys these promises are to Israel then, not now, and they have all been delivered, they now have a much much better promises,,,, promise,,, if they turn to Christ.

Joshua 21-45
Berean Standard Bible
Not one of all the LORD’s good promises to the house of Israel had failed; everything was fulfilled.

King James Bible
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Another thing to consider is,, if the land promise was unconditional like so many like to claim, why did God not allow Mosses or so many of the others cross over to the land? This passage does not suggest that his promises were unconditional. Make God angry and does not matter who you are, mosses and the others made God angry and were not permitted to cross over. Do not obey God and you will not stay in the Land. Yes the Land comes with conditions. Is the only conclusion
that makes any sense to me.

Deuteronomy 1 34-36
“Not one of the men of this evil generation shall see the good land I swore to give your fathers, except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He will see it, and I will give him and his descendants the land on which he has set foot, because he followed the LORD wholeheartedly.”
Leviticus 26
27. But if in spite of all this you do not obey Me, but continue to walk in hostility toward Me,
28. then I will walk in fury against you, and I, even I, will punish you sevenfold for your sins.
29. You will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters
30. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and heap your lifeless bodies on the lifeless remains of your idols; and My soul will despise you.
31. I will reduce your cities to rubble and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will refuse to smell the pleasing aroma of your sacrifices.
32. And I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who dwell in it will be appalled.
33. But I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out a sword after you as your land becomes desolate and your cities are laid waste.

 

[Gerbolski]

I totally disagree with Steve Gregg, he is not a very balanced teacher, and it shows even in the time of eternity that there will be nations which yes shall be on a new earth, and that Israel shall be back in their land, in the millennial reign, it sure sounds like a promise that will last, but when someone is against something, scripture does not matter, their doctrine is what matters.

And it does seem that there is a forever aspect on things in some fashion or another.

And yes Jesus fulfilled the the moral law and ceremonial law, but also it shows that in the millennial reign there will be old testament feast days (which right now it is not for us).

And concerning the moral law, does that mean we no longer obey the moral law because Jesus fulfilled it ?

Of course not that would be absurd.

The same argument can be said of does that mean because Joshua and so on, conquered land, to inhabit and possess, that the promise is now revoked ?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Then maybe the cross is revoked because Jesus fulfilled dying on the cross for us, you can go far with that way of thinking.

It is an absolutely absurd argument.

And even Galatians and Romans says they have not been revoked.

What the real issue is, people do not want Israel to be restored, they really have something against Israel.

And I believe that many (how many only God knows) that rejects God's plan for Israel, that in some form or degree, that some type of opposition or animosity is gradually forming in many of these people's hearts towards Israel, and it starts with a little seed, and grows from there.

And it can grow to the degree, that one day, some of them will receive the antichrist, for the antichrist will hate the Jews, and possibly with flattering words will convince people of the problem of the Jew, Hitler sure did, but I think the antichrist will be more cunning and deceitful.

Let us be very careful, and guard our hearts.

 

[Gerbolski]

End times

Rom 11:26-27 (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Eze 36:24-26 (24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. (25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans is a new testament verse, which shows that when the deliver comes out of Sion, which is at the second coming, he takes away the sins of the Jews, and Ezekiel is saying the very same thing, and speaks of the same time, but adds the aspect of them being brought back in their land, it is what is called end times prophecy.

But I know , if the end times prophecy does not conform to the replacement theology doctrine, then it is not legit.

But we have to leave scripture say what they say, and point to what they point to, and to some degree you have to use a little bit of common sense.

If they were a rebellious house in Ezekiel's day, and they did not repent as a nation, then obviously it cannot refer to that time, and they have not done so even unto this day, which tells us that it has not happened yet, you cannot throw all common sense away.

Abraham's promises via Isaac, God says he does not change his mind on that, we either believe it or not.

 

[Gerbolski]

Another thing to consider is,, if the land promise was unconditional like so many like to claim, why did God not allow Mosses or so many of the others cross over to the land? This passage does not suggest that his promises were unconditional. Make God angry and does not matter who you are, mosses and the others made God angry and were not permitted to cross over. Do not obey God and you will not stay in the Land. Yes the Land comes with conditions. Is the only conclusion
that makes any sense to me.

I gave the full balance of what he word says on this, with verses, I am not of one camp or the other camp, I see both aspects, of conditional, and in some cases unconditional.

 

[Gerbolski]

And when I consider God's says he is going create a new heaven and earth, well its really hard to believe that people get some land specific land forever when God is going to destroy all and create new.

Yes the word forever and eternal are very interesting words, in many verses, if not most, forever does mean forever, like when you die without Christ there will be eternal damnation, and if you die with Christ, you will live life eternal with him.


Now in the case of the land, in the millennial reign they will be back in their land, and yes you are right that God will destroy this earth at the end of the millennial reign, and a new earth shall be created, but how will that new earth look ? How will it be divided ?

Same promises ?

Well I do know that it does mention nations.

And concerning Steve Gregg as a whole, I do not bear witness with him, but concerning the words "eternal" and "forever" when he says this: "frequently refer to an "age" or a duration of time that is long but potentially finite", there are truths to that.

And forever an eternal sometimes has different aspects to it concerning certain things that God gives, from one aspect at a certain time to another aspect.

I think it is used in a real eternal way more times than we think, though in certain cases there may be a time frame, but we have to be careful on that, context reveals things, and in the land promise, well we see it in the millennial reign, and in eternity there will be nations.

Hmmm , we have to be very careful, God does keep his promises, and means what he says about his promises.

 

[Dave M]

What the real issue is, people do not want Israel to be restored, they really have something against Israel.

restored to what?? A religion that hates Christ? a religion that never saved anyone, and rebelled against God, what do you mean restored?

this turned out to be a disappointing conversation, I do not have to have anyone agree with me, but to make accusations is just the way the enemy works, and I try to avoid that, people who can not share there thoughts with out accusations show themselves instantly, I to am guilty of it, and have learned over the years it gets you no where

and why do make accusations?? I do not tolerate that type of discussion, have a good one

I want all people saved I do not care what there nationality is? why are you so partial to one particular people, when God is not.

You are either in Christ or your not and you need a savior, there is no special treatment to any people group, that goes against every word of the bible.

God says there is

• Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".
• Romans 10:12: "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him".
• Ephesians 2:14-15: Describes Jesus as "our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility... to create in himself one new humanity out of the two" (referring to Jews and Gentiles)

 

[Gerbolski]

restored to what?? A religion that hates Christ? a religion that never saved anyone, and rebelled against God, what do you mean restored?

and why do make accusations I do not tolerate that type of discussion, have a good one

I am covering things as much as possible in how people think about things, because I know that there is animosity against the Jews and it is growing, and it concerns me, for I care about people, and the stuff I said on the antichrist, I can totally see that.

And yes, when I said this: "What the real issue is, people do not want Israel to be restored, they really have something against Israel.", I agree with that statement, that that is one of the major issues.

If it is not yours, than maybe it ain't but it is in a big way for many, and sometimes we may not even see it.

And concerning restoration, it is about Israel being restored to Christ as an holy nation, as people who serve God, and people who are now born again.

To were they are no longer going after Judaism, but after Christ, that is it.

In fact God wills that none would perish, and that includes the Jews.

He leads sinners to the cross, of which we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.