Begotten or Eternal? — The Controversy of the Sonship in Time and Eternity

[B-A-C]

God is absolutely one — one divine Person, one divine Being, one Spirit.

Jesus Christ is the full manifestation of that one God in flesh.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not sequential roles but concurrent manifestations of the same divine Being — who can operate in different ways at once.

These statements conflict each other.

Unlike Sabellianism, Oneness believers hold that the Father (deity), the Son (humanity), and the Holy Spirit (indwelling presence) exist and operate simultaneously.

This implies that only the Father is divine, not Jesus and the Holy Spirit (which is exactly what oneness does teach).

 

[First and the Last]

It would be helpful if you could clearly explain your belief

Oneness Theology Explains:

1. Distinctions are Real, Not Imaginary

When Jesus prays to the Father, it’s not “the same Person talking to Himself” — it’s the genuine relationship between the humanity of Christ and the indwelling deity.

The Son’s prayers are real, but they express the human will to the divine Spirit within, not one divine Person to another.

2. Simultaneity, Not Succession

Unlike Sabellianism, Oneness believers hold that the Father (deity), the Son (humanity), and the Holy Spirit (indwelling presence) exist and operate simultaneously.

The Father was still in heaven while also manifested in the Son on earth (John 14:10).

3. Distinction Between Deity and Humanity

Oneness theology distinguishes between who Jesus is (God and man) and what nature is acting in any given passage.

As God, He could still fill heaven and earth.
As man, He could pray, hunger, and die.
This preserves biblical realism without dividing God into multiple Persons.

4. Eternal God, Temporal Sonship

The Spirit (God) is eternal; the Sonship (incarnation) began in time.

“When the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman.” (Gal. 4:4)
This means the role of the Son is temporal and redemptive, not eternal and co-equal.

5. The Holy Spirit Is Not a Separate Person

Oneness believers identify the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20) and the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).

Not a third divine Person, but the one God working in spiritual regeneration.

 

[First and the Last]

This implies that only the Father is divine, not Jesus and the Holy Spirit (which is exactly what oneness does teach).

That statement reflects a misunderstanding of Oneness theology. Oneness believers do not teach that only the Father is divine. We affirm that the one true God — the eternal, invisible Spirit — manifested Himself in diverse ways, particularly as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in regeneration and indwelling power. These are not three divine beings or centers of consciousness, but the one omnipresent God acting according to His own redemptive purpose.


Jesus is not a secondary or lesser being; He is the full manifestation of the Father in flesh — “For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9). The Father was not absent from the Son, nor was the Spirit another person alongside Him. Rather, the Son was the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the express image of His person (Hebrews 1:3).


In Oneness understanding, divinity is not divided among persons, but fully revealed in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not a third being, but the same eternal Spirit now working within the believer — the Spirit of Christ Himself (Romans 8:9-11). Thus, the Oneness view does not diminish the deity of Jesus or the Spirit, but exalts the absolute unity of the Godhead: “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

 

[BroTan]

I completely understand why you’re asking, and I truly respect everyone here who loves the Lord and studies His Word sincerely.


To answer your question honestly — I don’t reject the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. I believe in all three as fully revealed in Scripture. But I understand them not as three separate or distinct divine Persons, but as the one God manifesting Himself in different ways — as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.


In other words, I don’t see “three Gods” or even “three co-eternal Persons,” but one God who has revealed Himself to us in different manifestations or roles for His own redemptive purpose. To me, that keeps the focus on God’s absolute oneness, while still embracing the full revelation of Jesus Christ as God made visible.

If true monotheism means one divine consciousness, one will, one mind, and one divine Being — can three co-equal Persons, each with their own consciousness and will, still be called one God in any meaningful sense? Or has tradition redefined “one” into a kind of unity foreign to the original biblical revelation?

And really, is it so difficult to believe that the one invisible, omnipresent God — who fills heaven and earth, yet cannot be contained by either — chose to step into His own creation and live as a man? Not to play a role or send another being, but to personally experience our frailty, pain, and temptation; to feel what we feel, suffer what we suffer, and redeem us Himself. The Incarnation wasn’t God delegating — it was God descending. The Eternal Spirit became visible flesh so humanity could finally know the heart of the invisible God.


I say that with love and respect for all who hold a different view — I’m just sharing what I’ve come to believe from Scripture.


With love in Christ

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)

Note what God says,”Let us make man in our image." The word "us" implies more than one correct? But, that could mean two or two million. Some people say, "These were angels that God was talking to." Was it? What does the word image mean? It means a reproduction of a person or an object, especially a sculptured likeness. Note this in the verse, "after our likeness." Why did the Lord switch the wording when he created man? Take a look at this verse in Genesis chapter one.

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:25)

In the 26th verse God said that man would be after His likeness not after His kind. Meaning man would look like Him but, will not be made of the same substance, God is a spirit, man is a soul meaning flesh and blood.

But, people continue to say, "It’s only one God, and He was talking to the angels. Well, let's see what an angel looks like, and then decide if man looks like the angels.

We will go into Ezekiel chapter one. And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. (Ezekiel 1:4-7)

What are these four living creatures called? Let's go to Ezekiel chapter 10 and find out.

This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings. (Ezekiel 10:20-21)

These creatures are cherub angels. Let's reason together sisters and brothers, in Genesis chapter one verse 26, the Lord said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." When was the last time we've seen a man with four faces four wings and calves feet? We have never seen a man that looks like that. So, those people that think the Lord was talking to an angel have just been proven wrong by the word of God. For the simple fact that we cannot find any man upon this earth or anywhere else in the creation that looks like an angel. This lets us know that God has hands, feet, nose, mouth, eyes etc. The verse does say He created us in His image correct? So, whom was the Lord talking to if it wasn't the angels? Was He talking to Himself?

Now let's go to the 45th Psalm and see if we can find the third member. My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. (Psalms 45:1-3)

Who is the mightiest? Can a man carry the title most mighty? Let's continue.

And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee. Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Psalms 45:4-7)

How many do you see? Note the 7th verse, "therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." We have two again, (God, thy God.) Whose throne will be established forever?

Let's go to Hebrews chapter one and eight and see how Paul quoted this scripture and also whose throne will be established forever. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Within this verse you see the Son did not start with Mary, He simply came through Mary. Note what the verse says, "Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." Now we see who was doing the talking and also who was being spoken to. The Father and the Son are in this joint venture. Through the Son the world was made. Let's skip down to the 5th verse.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1:5)

He never said to an angel, "thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." Let's continue.
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, “And let all the angels of God worship him.” And of the angels he saith, “Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” (Hebrews 1:6-7)

Here we see that the angels are spirits and they are also servants. Every angel that did not follow Satan is a holy spirit. All the angels good or evil are servants to the Lord.

But unto the Son he saith, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8)

Notice something very important, the Father is calling the Son, God. "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." I can't understand why some sects have a problem with the Son being God. If Jesus is the Son of God, what would that make Him? God! When a horse has offspring, is it called a dog? No, a horse. Some people make things that are so simple difficult. Now, let's go to the book of John and see which one of the Godhead members was doing the talking.

 

[Christ4Ever]

1. Distinctions are Real, Not Imaginary

When Jesus prays to the Father, it’s not “the same Person talking to Himself” — it’s the genuine relationship between the humanity of Christ and the indwelling deity.

The Son’s prayers are real, but they express the human will to the divine Spirit within, not one divine Person to another.

The phrase “genuine relationship between the humanity of Christ and the indwelling deity” opens it to a varied explanation. Jesus' prayers to the Father are understood as the Son (divine person) communicating with the Father (another divine Person) in His human nature. I hope you are not implying that in so doing that Jesus' human nature is communicating with His divine nature instead of between two divine persons because He is doing so through His human nature. This would mean that He is not divine in His incarnate state. If so, then yes, we disagree.

Also, in the Oneness, it appears you are saying that in prayer it is not one divine person communicating to another. If so, then again, it is not compatible with the Trinity. Then once again, we disagree.

Which places you more in line with Nestorianism which makes an independence of the divine/human nature of Jesus and incompatible with the Trinity.

Your use of saying "express the human will to the divine Spirit within, not one divine Person to another." would need to show scriptural support of this, because clearly it does not agree with the Trinity and what would be acceptable here on Talk Jesus.

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Thank you for taking the time to address my question. I only addressed the 1, because it is clear even in this that it conflicts with the Trinity. I want to make it also clear that the concept of Oneness you believe in is not acceptable here on Talk Jesus. What I mentioned earlier still stands—either refrain from engaging in discussions that conflict with the site’s doctrine of the Trinity, or it would be better for you to leave Talk Jesus for a site more conducive to your beliefs.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[First and the Last]

The phrase “genuine relationship between the humanity of Christ and the indwelling deity” opens it to a varied explanation. Jesus' prayers to the Father are understood as the Son (divine person) communicating with the Father (another divine Person) in His human nature. I hope you are not implying that in so doing that Jesus' human nature is communicating with His divine nature instead of between two divine persons because He is doing so through His human nature. This would mean that He is not divine in His incarnate state. If so, then yes, we disagree.

Also, in the Oneness, it appears you are saying that in prayer it is not one divine person communicating to another. If so, then again, it is not compatible with the Trinity. Then once again, we disagree.

Which places you more in line with Nestorianism which makes an independence of the divine/human nature of Jesus and incompatible with the Trinity.

Your use of saying "express the human will to the divine Spirit within, not one divine Person to another." would need to show scriptural support of this, because clearly it does not agree with the Trinity and what would be acceptable here on Talk Jesus.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for taking the time to address my question. I only addressed the 1, because it is clear even in this that it conflicts with the Trinity. I want to make it also clear that the concept of Oneness you believe in is not acceptable here on Talk Jesus. What I mentioned earlier still stands—either refrain from engaging in discussions that conflict with the site’s doctrine of the Trinity, or it would be better for you to leave Talk Jesus for a site more conducive to your beliefs.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

1. On “Jesus’ prayers being one divine Person communicating with another”​

I understand why this question arises—it gets to the heart of how we view Christ’s dual nature.
From the Oneness perspective, Jesus’ prayers were not communication between two divine persons but rather the genuine human consciousness of the Son reaching out to the eternal Spirit that indwelt Him. The incarnation was not God ceasing to be divine, but God adding to Himself a full and authentic humanity (John 1:14; Philippians 2:6-8).
When Jesus prayed, He did so as man, modeling submission and dependence, not because He lacked divinity, but because His humanity was real. This preserves both His deity and His humanity without dividing the Godhead into separate divine beings.

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2. On “implying His human nature communicates with His divine nature”​

That is actually very close to what Oneness theology affirms. The communication between the humanity and the indwelling deity of Christ is not a denial of His divinity—it proves the mystery of God manifest in flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). The divine nature did not vacate heaven; the omnipresent Spirit was simultaneously in heaven and incarnate in Christ. So, when Jesus prayed, it was the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) submitting His will to the divine Spirit, not two separate divine persons conversing.

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3. On “this being incompatible with the Trinity”​

You’re right—it is incompatible with Trinitarian categories, but that difference of framework does not mean it denies Christ’s deity. The Oneness view simply maintains a unified, indivisible Godhead rather than three co-equal persons. It sees the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as manifestations or modes of operation of the one true God, revealed fully in Christ.
The Father was in Him (John 14:10), and the Holy Spirit was His very life (Romans 8:9-11). Thus, our disagreement is hermeneutical, not a rejection of biblical truth about Jesus’ deity.

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4. On the charge of “Nestorianism”​

That is an understandable concern, but Oneness teaching is actually the opposite of Nestorianism. Nestorius divided Christ into two separate persons—one human and one divine—acting independently. Oneness doctrine insists that the man Christ Jesus and the indwelling deity are one inseparable person (John 10:30; Colossians 2:9).
We reject any notion of independence between His natures; the human will was always in perfect harmony with the divine will. What we emphasize is distinction of function, not separation of personhood.

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5. On “showing scriptural support”​

Gladly. Scripture consistently presents Jesus praying as man to the Father as Spirit:

• Luke 5:16 – He withdrew to pray, showing true humanity.
• John 14:10 – “The Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.”
• Hebrews 5:7-8 – He “offered up prayers… and was heard.”
• John 17:21 – His prayer reveals the union between God and man that He came to extend to believers.
  These verses harmonize perfectly with the Oneness understanding of one God who can relate within His own manifestation in flesh without requiring multiple divine persons.

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6. On “your belief not acceptable here”​

I genuinely respect the site’s doctrinal boundaries and the moderators’ responsibility to uphold them. My intent has never been to sow division but to represent my faith sincerely and biblically. I understand if the forum requires adherence to Trinitarian language; however, I hope you can see that my aim is to exalt Jesus as fully God and fully man, not to diminish His deity.
If participation becomes inappropriate under your guidelines, I’ll respectfully bow out rather than cause contention. But please know my heart is for honest, Christ-centered dialogue, not debate for debate’s sake.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I genuinely respect the site’s doctrinal boundaries and the moderators’ responsibility to uphold them. My intent has never been to sow division but to represent my faith sincerely and biblically. I understand if the forum requires adherence to Trinitarian language; however, I hope you can see that my aim is to exalt Jesus as fully God and fully man, not to diminish His deity.
If participation becomes inappropriate under your guidelines, I’ll respectfully bow out rather than cause contention. But please know my heart is for honest, Christ-centered dialogue, not debate for debate’s sake.

It doesn’t change my stance. I can appreciate your honesty and sincerity, but I still cannot accept the conclusions you've drawn from your belief. This isn’t a case where someone else started the thread and you offered an alternative view. You created the thread specifically to explain your belief, which contradicts the site's Statement of Faith. There’s no ambiguity in letting you know that the choices ahead are yours to make, until they inevitably become mine. As a Moderator who has had to handle this more often than I’d prefer, I am compelled to take action that ultimately makes the decision for you.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Gothedral]

(I imagine Japheth, Gomer, and Ashkenaz facepalming from their mansions at this thread️)

The Word is God. The Amen is a Person who sends people to Hell that have sinned against the Holy Spirit, because He is God. This is terrifying unless we do what we are commanded to do. It's that urgent. Amen and Amen. Christ and the Father are one.

Read the book of Revelation chapter 3 in its entirety for context, the important answer to that question, and the essential sake of redemption.