Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

Determinist philosophy, or the belief in non-free will, suggests that humanity lacks the ability to make decisions independently of God's will. According to this view, God must be the ultimate puppeteer, as the only will that truly exists is God's, which humanity perceives as their own. This implies that the measure of faith given to everyone by God cannot save anyone on its own and must either be discounted or categorized. Since all possess this measure of faith, it is insufficient to save without God's will. This faith must also be divided or seen as different—guiding some to fulfill God's will and others to follow self-will. One faith, two distinct outcomes.

I included this part to show that I didn’t overlook your post, and as I mentioned, it wasn’t really about God’s will but rather about free will.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Hello Christ4Ever,

There is only one saving faith “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

You wrote "ultimate puppeteer" in contrast to "Potter" of whom the Apostle Paul wrote:

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the Molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
(Romans 9:18-23)
​

So, faithful, glorious, and loving Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into (Romans 9:19-23)

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?".

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free-will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)
​

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in (Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in (Romans 9:20) showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Love,
Kermos

 

[Christ4Ever]

Do realize, Christ4Ever, that you spent your opening 3 paragraphs without quoting any Holy Scripture yet you tried to correct me with your "To wrestle with the question of free will, it's essential to consider the entirety of scripture, as it reveals much about God's Will and provides an understanding of who God is. While it may take eternity to fully grasp Him, we cannot overlook this crucial aspect in our exploration of free-will. Claiming something is God's will, even when it conflicts with your non-free-will/determinist beliefs, doesn't invalidate its existence", but no Holy Scripture states man was imparted a free-will which means man does not have a free-will ability to choose Lord Jesus, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ declares “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) which eliminates any latitude for the free-willian precepts of men (Matthew 15:9).

Do you want me to start typing the entirety of scripture to you, if so all that say is that you did not understand what I said in my post when I said "Scripture, is not meant to be seen in bits and pieces to decide upon questions of great conjecture and no sure standing. " That concept leaves you creating your theology when holding that Bible in your hands as proof is insufficient.

You base your position on scripture that shows that God chooses the believer, then make everything else fit to that, even when scripture shows that man has to make decisions when it comes to this free gift of salvation. So, you wind up doing the very thing you would accuse me as being "free-willian" does. (Where did you come up with that word anyway)

So, instead of attempting to reconcile what appears at face value as being conflicting, "God choosing" and "God requiring man to decide", you choose to reject the very thing that reconciles it, which is free-will, and choose compulsion instead.

God has had me quote Holy Scripture from the Old Testament and throughout the New Testament, and the whole of Scripture reveals the Sovereignty of God (Daniel 4:34-35) and the helplessness of man apart from God (John 15:5) and the blessing of salvation in God (Matthew 16:17).

God made you? An interesting way of putting it. I don't ever see where any of the Apostles ever stated it in that way. You might want to think about the conversation between Jesus & Peter, when Jesus told Peter that He would deny Him. This is what one would call foreknowledge. He knew what Peter would do, even though Peter said he would not.

For me the conclusion is that Peter of his own free-will later denied Jesus, while I'll assume that you believe that God made Peter deny Jesus by creating the situations that made him do so, even though Peter when everything is said and done, would still have to follow through with the denial for the foreknowledge to be true.

I fully believe in the Sovereignty of God and have no issue with it. However, I disagree with your conclusion that the existence of free will would negate God's Sovereignty.

Deuteronomy 17:8 - "Suppose a case arises in a local court that is too hard for you to decide--for instance, whether someone is guilty of murder or only of manslaughter, or a difficult lawsuit, or a case involving different kinds of assault. Take such legal cases to the place the LORD your God will choose,

Do realize, Christ4Ever, that you spent your opening 3 paragraphs without quoting any Holy Scripture yet you tried to correct me with your "To wrestle with the question of free will, it's essential to consider the entirety of scripture, as it reveals much about God's Will and provides an understanding of who God is. While it may take eternity to fully grasp Him, we cannot overlook this crucial aspect in our exploration of free-will. Claiming something is God's will, even when it conflicts with your non-free-will/determinist beliefs, doesn't invalidate its existence", but no Holy Scripture states man was imparted a free-will which means man does not have a free-will ability to choose Lord Jesus, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ declares “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) which eliminates any latitude for the free-willian precepts of men (Matthew 15:9).

What you have stated here does not negate free-will! The verses you quote only show that God has foreknowledge!

God has had me quote Holy Scripture from the Old Testament and throughout the New Testament, and the whole of Scripture reveals the Sovereignty of God (Daniel 4:34-35) and the helplessness of man apart from God (John 15:5) and the blessing of salvation in God (Matthew 16:17).

Of course man is helpless apart from God, but man decides on who He will follow, and causes his own separation not God, for he gives each a measure of faith to decide. God's foreknowledge as mentioned before allows Him to know who those are to be and His Atonement complete because God is the one who gave a measure of faith to all.

The questions and verses go on and on, even as scripture shows God's Will. So, just saying it's God's Will, is because you have no answer that allows for man to have decision-making ability, within God's Will by not including free-will as part of God's Will for humanity.

I didn't write that man doesn't make decisions, so you do worse than misrepresent that which Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to post.

See the Car and Truck Analogy at post #72 in this thread which was posted to your attention.

Sorry not "controls" but "constrains".
Analogy notwithstanding

No accepting? So, "whoever believes" is not a decision-making notation? To answer so you don't have to. It falls under a moral responsibility, which is part of God's Will for us. This is also the case in v36.
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

You nullified “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) with your paragraph, there.

Not true, because faith comes from God.

If that is the case that there is no moral responsibility for humanity within God's Will, then there are no options for humanity to follow God's Laws if one is not compulsed to do so by God. If so, are you believing that God has made man break His Laws just because its His will?

Your "If that is the case that there is no moral responsibility for humanity within God's Will" contradicts "those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29).

Which contradicts that none have done good. So, again how do you answer my question?
Romans 3:10, 12 - 10 As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. ... 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

You see it as dependence, but I see it as a relationship between God and humanity. Allowing free will doesn't make God reliant on people; rather, it opens the door for a deeper, more authentic connection than one where humans have master/slave with no choice and are simply forced to comply.

I am a son of my Father in Heaven, and the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12:2) established this blessed relationship! I depend on my Lord Jesus Christ to keep me safe!

You wrote "non-Free-willian Philosophy has a very weak God who is unable to consider free-will while ensuring atonement. lol" - see your "laugh out loud" about the Lord's salvation.

The Free-willian Philosophy has a very weak God who cannot securely choose man unto atonement and is dependent upon men to free-will choose God ensuring atonement.

Actually, your non-free-willian philosophy means you have no say in the matter.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL

If man has free-will then Romans 12:2 makes sense, but if he does not as you non-free-willians believe, then it doesn't. - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Christ4Ever]

Stop underthinking. Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10), the self-confessed murderer of Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages, acted according to his self-will separated from God.

Only the Sovereign God has the ability to choose Tyler unto salvation and to have Christ's finished atonement apply to Tyler and for Tyler to become a Christ image bearer with a Christ-like will.

Without God's intervention, self-willed Tyler goes to hell.

So, repentance has nothing to do with it?
I guess you have never repented of your sins but are being saved anyway.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Kermos]

I certainly agree with much of what you have written. God does call all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17: 30), and whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13), so all the glory goes to God because salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). And yet, Jesus was just as clear that the sinner’s ruin is of his own unbelief and rejection of the truth: “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40).

Yes, it is true that repentance is something God grants. The apostles said, “Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18). Paul told Timothy that God might “peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth” (2 Timothy 2:25). But this doesn’t mean that God repents in place of man, nor that there is no responsibility placed on the sinner’s shoulders. The command remains direct: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 3:19). God grants, God enables by His Spirit, God draws. But the sinner must respond.

The error comes when we take the truth that God grants repentance and contort it into something that says man has no accountability. That flies in the face of the rest of Scripture. It is God’s will that “all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), and yet they rebel. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together… and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). Both of these are true, and they stand side by side. God grants, and man is commanded.

Yes, repentance is the gift of God. But it is also the responsibility of man. Anything less is less than the full counsel of God’s Word.

Hi bdavidc,

I have four questions for you that are tightly coupled since we both quoted scripture, and as a gesture of goodwill, I plan to answer the questions myself, first.

#1 Does man repent unto life without God giving man repentance?

#2 Does God give complete repentance or partial repentance?

#3 How does man obey God's commands (or call) to God's satisfaction?

#4 Is God or man accountable for man's sin?

#1's answer is no. Apostolic testimony is “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

#2's answer is "complete repentance" for God gives to the babes who are born again (John 3:3) children of God “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

#3's answer is "by man being in Christ because of the very Power of God" for the Word of God is “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

#4's answer is "man is accountable for his sin" for the Word of God is "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (Ezekiel 18:20) and the Word of God clearly indicates that the first state of man opposes God with "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (John 3:19-20) and God must work in man to reconcile man to God (see the next verse John 3:21 quoted in answer #3 above).

@bdavidc, since Christ's love controls believers in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:14), then God controls repentance in every Christian because “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

All glory and honor to the Living Lord Jesus Christ!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

Would you explain why you wrote the above in response to the following?





Hi Twistie,

You wrote "I tell you you make no sense to me" in response to the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, this Holy Spirit inspired word applies to you "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Love,
Kermos

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;

Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel

And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house.

And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it

Saying ones force to do evil shows a lack of remorse a lack of wanting to take responsibility for ones own actions..
Or perhaps your God made creations just to destroy..

ʕ⁠´⁠•⁠ ⁠ᴥ⁠•̥⁠`⁠ʔ

 

[Kermos]

There we go, so nice to see you type this. Note the words BIASED. PREJUDICED. FAVORING.

You are DODGING the question, in light of YOUR correct line on the definition of partiality above, please re-read and try again.

You are DODGING the question, in light of YOUR correct line on the definition of partiality above, please re-read and try again.

No need to reread, KingJ, because the response of:

You do not define procedure. You closed out the Truth (John 14:6) in your #2.

1. The adjective partial defines as:

1. Of, relating to, being, or affecting only a part; not total; incomplete: The plan calls for partial deployment of missiles. The police have only a partial description of the suspect.
2. Favoring one person or side over another or others; biased or prejudiced: a decision that was partial to the plaintiff.
3. Having a particular liking or fondness for something or someone: partial to spicy food.
4. Mathematics Of or being operations or sequences of operations, such as differentiation and integration, when applied to only one of several variables at a time.
(American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. S.v. "partial." Retrieved September 20 2025 from partial)
​

2. There is no such thing as "free-will", so there was no free-will for God to remove (see post #72):

No Holy Scripture indicates man was imparted a free-will by God to even be able to choose Lord Jesus because the Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for you to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
​

3. Your self-contradictory statement shows your antipathy against Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) discourse.

You believe that God, the Righteous Judge, gives credence to your free-will choosing God, which is, by definition, God being partial to men with their works including you; furthermore, your belief leads to Christ's failure atonement as outlined in the original post.

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).

I believe that God, the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11), gives credence to Lord Jesus, the One Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), which is, by definition, God being impartial to men with their works including me; furthermore, I believe in Christ's finished atonement as outlined in the original post.
​

is Spiritual Truth (John 14:6).

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

I find it sad people think the Living God got a force His creation to Love Him He says choosen that does not mean He forces His creation to Love Him sadly many take counsel with man instead of the Lord..

ᕙ⁠[⁠･⁠۝･⁠]⁠ᕗ

 

[Kermos]

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;

Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel

And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house.

And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it

Saying ones force to do evil shows a lack of remorse a lack of wanting to take responsibility for ones own actions..
Or perhaps your God made creations just to destroy..

ʕ⁠´⁠•⁠ ⁠ᴥ⁠•̥⁠`⁠ʔ

Twistie, you jumped without answering the following:

Let your yes be yes n no be no very simple something that it seems many can't do..

◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

Would you explain why you wrote the above in response to the following?

And that is why He put a new heart why one must ne born again of the spirit n you are still in the flesh it's why your so stuck on what your stuck in lol imagine the Creator got a force Love lol
Y'all flesh born is funny creatures..
I surely hope you humble yourself to allow the Spirit of the Lord to show you just How powerful He is n He don't need to force nothing to Love Him for if He was gonna do so then the Angels never would of been able to seek their will over His..

Sure hope you encounter the Living God tho..

ᕙ⁠[⁠･⁠۝･⁠]⁠ᕗ

If I tell you you make no sense to me why would you write all that stuff do you think imma take in your words when you don't even make no sense?

You can't answer simple questions you give half answers n like to word dance I'm not into that..

Your not interested in discussing your interested in converting and teaching others your way(pride)

Hope you encounter the Living God The True Creator because He is beautiful..


ʘ⁠‿⁠ʘ

Hi Twistie,

You wrote "I tell you you make no sense to me" in response to the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, this Holy Spirit inspired word applies to you "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Love,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

Twistie, you jumped without answering the following:



Would you explain why you wrote the above in response to the following?





Hi Twistie,

You wrote "I tell you you make no sense to me" in response to the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, this Holy Spirit inspired word applies to you "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Love,
Kermos

You take choose to forced you take no counseling with the Lord you grab verses from the Bible to try and make yourself right regardless of the Truth..

Hmm is that blasphemy by chance??

Take counsel with the Lord stop leaning on your own understanding.. humble yourself before the Almighty and approach Him like a child n He will Heal you only He can cure that blindness before it is too late..

Hope all's well with ya

ᕙ⁠(⁠ ⁠ ⁠•⁠ ⁠‿⁠ ⁠•⁠ ⁠ ⁠)⁠ᕗ

 

[Kermos]

Hello Christ4Ever,

You literally just chopped off the Word of God detailing God's will:

​

I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me​

(John 5:30)​

​

I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do​

(John 17:4).​

​

I have given you an example​

(John 13:15).​

​

In stark contrast to Christ's words of "I can do nothing on My own initiative", you say you do choose God in your own initiative/will.

You just blew right past all of this with:

Do you want me to start typing the entirety of scripture to you, if so all that say is that you did not understand what I said in my post when I said "Scripture, is not meant to be seen in bits and pieces to decide upon questions of great conjecture and no sure standing. " That concept leaves you creating your theology when holding that Bible in your hands as proof is insufficient.

You base your position on scripture that shows that God chooses the believer, then make everything else fit to that,

The entirety of Holy Scripture reveals:

• the Sovereignty of the good God,
• man is evil (evil Adam disobeyed God's only commandment with a punishment),
• the loving God redeems man by Christ's finished atonement.

even when scripture shows that man has to make decisions when it comes to this free gift of salvation. So, you wind up doing the very thing you would accuse me as being "free-willian" does. (Where did you come up with that word anyway)

So, instead of attempting to reconcile what appears at face value as being conflicting, "God choosing" and "God requiring man to decide", you choose to reject the very thing that reconciles it, which is free-will, and choose compulsion instead.

Your "even when scripture shows that man has to make decisions when it comes to this free gift of salvation" is false.

No Holy Scripture states man was imparted a free-will to choose God.

Never does the Word of God say "choose Me". Not once. You are coming from a no Word of God position.

God made you? An interesting way of putting it.

Christ4Ever, I'm sure you've heard of fruit of the Spirit. Let's review this bountiful blessing of the Living God:

​

the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control​

(Galatians 5:22-23)​

​

Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly" (1 Peter 1:22, YLT),​

​

You might want to think about what the Apostles say.

I don't ever see where any of the Apostles ever stated it in that way.

Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14). The Apostle Paul wrote profound Truth (John 14:6), here!

You might want to think about the conversation between Jesus & Peter, when Jesus told Peter that He would deny Him. This is what one would call foreknowledge. He knew what Peter would do, even though Peter said he would not.

Christ4Ever, you wrote "He knew what Peter would do, even though Peter said he would not", so you convey it wasn’t Peter's free-will to deny Christ.

Oh, and you convey the opposite that Peter free-will chose to deny Christ.

You are trying to have it both ways.

A crucial point is this, no Holy Scripture states that Peter chose Jesus before nor after Peter denied Christ.

Jesus sent messengers to Peter and the apostles (Matthew 28:10) after Peter denied Christ but Peter and the apostles would not believe those messengers (Mark 16:9-14).

Later, Jesus went Himself to Peter and the Apostles in the locked room saying "Peace be with you" (John 20:19)!

Evil man does not seek the good God, but the good Word of God says that He "has come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10)!

You can focus on the mechanism of Peter's denial all that you want, but I focus on the Redeemer redeeming the redeemed Peter.

See Redeemer Jesus atoned for the redeemed Peter.

For me the conclusion is that Peter of his own free-will later denied Jesus, while I'll assume that you believe that God made Peter deny Jesus by creating the situations that made him do so, even though Peter when everything is said and done, would still have to follow through with the denial for the foreknowledge to be true.

Christ4Ever, I'm sure you've heard of fruit of the Spirit. Let's review this bountiful blessing of the Living God:

​

the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control​

(Galatians 5:22-23)​

​

Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly" (1 Peter 1:22, YLT),​

​

Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, ‘I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.’" (Matthew 26:31), so, according to your "For me the conclusion is that Peter of his own free-will later denied Jesus" means that you believe any one of the Apostles, even Peter, could have thwarted God's Prophecy "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate,” Declares the LORD of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones" (Zechariah 13:7).

Or, maybe this is the prophecy of God that you believe the disciples could have thwarted "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12).

Of this, I am certain about You, Lord God Almighty, "no purpose of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2)!

I fully believe in the Sovereignty of God and have no issue with it. However, I disagree with your conclusion that the existence of free will would negate God's Sovereignty.

Here's the blockage for free-willian philosophy tryimg to marry with the Sovereignty of God, you say "here is free-will right here in this verse" such as you are doing with Deuteronomy 17:8, but free-will is not there, and the Son of God says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so believe the Son!

Deuteronomy 17:8 - "Suppose a case arises in a local court that is too hard for you to decide--for instance, whether someone is guilty of murder or only of manslaughter, or a difficult lawsuit, or a case involving different kinds of assault. Take such legal cases to the place the LORD your God will choose,

God is the Master, and there is none greater than God! Hallelujah!

So, this means there is none that can have God in bondage, so there is no one for God to be "free" from incarceration - which means God does not have a free-will, but God does have God's will.

For man to say God has a free-will implies that God has a superior one to God.

Man has a will - just not a free-will (2 Peter 2:9-10; Philippians 2:13).

What you have stated here does not negate free-will! The verses you quote only show that God has foreknowledge!

Man cannot thwart that which God foreknows; therefore, free-will exists not.

Christ4Ever, Lord Jesus uses past tense in his sayings about which you exclaimed "The verses you quote only show that God has foreknowledge". Here is the Word of God to which you referred:

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

Of course man is helpless apart from God, but man decides on who He will follow, and causes his own separation not God, for he gives each a measure of faith to decide. God's foreknowledge as mentioned before allows Him to know who those are to be and His Atonement complete because God is the one who gave a measure of faith to all.

God did not give belief (faith) in Christ to unbelievers (unfaithful / no faith). None. Zero. Zilch.

You advocate for faith inside of people in hell, so you convey that faith fails to save from the wrath of God.

There is one faith (Ephesians 4:5), and this glorious faith is explained by Christ “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Sorry not "controls" but "constrains".
Analogy notwithstanding

In the passage "Christ's love controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14) which aligns with “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

Christ4Ever, do realize, you can use the word constrains, but you still end up with that which you try to escape of Christ's love constrains us to good and from evil.

The word controls derives from a Greek word with two root words, one word with the meaning "holds" and the second word with the meaning "together"; in other words, holds together is the Greek word from which the English word controls is translated, and holds together should sound familiar to you because of (Colossians 1:17).

controls = Strong's Greek: 4912. συνέχω (sunechó) -- To hold together, to constrain, to compel, to press

holds = Strong's Greek: 2192. ἔχω; (echó) -- To have, to hold, to possess

together = Strong's Greek: 4862. σύν (sun) -- with, together with, in company with

This is a very intimate depiction! Praise Jesus!

Not true, because faith comes from God.

You conveyed that the "believe" (faith) recorded in John 3:16 and John 3:36 are a function of man's free-will.

Please explain precisely your meaning since you wrote that my interpretation of your writing is false.

Which contradicts that none have done good. So, again how do you answer my question?
Romans 3:10, 12 - 10 As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. ... 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

We Christians do good because of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Christ4Ever, see that “no one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18), so the indwelling Holy Spirit puts goodness in us Christians.

That which God controls me to write contains no contradiction, but your "If that is the case that there is no moral responsibility for humanity within God's Will" contradicting "those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29) remains.

Actually, your non-free-willian philosophy means you have no say in the matter.

Praise the Lord! You are getting my relationship with my Father in Heaven!!!

If man has free-will then Romans 12:2 makes sense, but if he does not as you non-free-willians believe, then it doesn't. - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

God is the one who transforms the mind, think repentance, so "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect" (Romans 12:2). Free-will does not make sense with Romans 12:2.

Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10), the self-confessed murderer of Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages, does not transform his mind to that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Only the Sovereign God has the ability to choose to transform Tyler's mind and to have Christ's finished atonement apply to Tyler and for Tyler to become a Christ image bearer with a Christ-like will.

Without God's intervention, self-willed Tyler goes to hell.

You have confused unbiblical "free-will" with Biblical self-will. It is confusion to add free-will where free-will is absent in the Word of God.

Love,
Kermos

 

[Kermos]

So, repentance has nothing to do with it?
I guess you have never repented of your sins but are being saved anyway.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Dear Christ4Ever,

I have encountered the Living God, and I have been thinking differently (repent) ever since by the grace of God!

You made a human assumption based upon what, Christ4Ever?

Love,
Kermos

 

[Kermos]

You take choose to forced you take no counseling with the Lord you grab verses from the Bible to try and make yourself right regardless of the Truth..

Hmm is that blasphemy by chance??

Take counsel with the Lord stop leaning on your own understanding.. humble yourself before the Almighty and approach Him like a child n He will Heal you only He can cure that blindness before it is too late..

Hope all's well with ya

ᕙ⁠(⁠ ⁠ ⁠•⁠ ⁠‿⁠ ⁠•⁠ ⁠ ⁠)⁠ᕗ

Oh, Twistie, you tied the concepts of pride and humility into incoherent knots.

The pride of your human "free-will" exposes your resulting "I am sovereign above I AM" because of your free-willian "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation" (the opposite of the Word of God recorded in John 15:5 and John 15:16 and John 6:63 and John 15:19).

In Truth (John 14:6), humility is acknowledging the finished work of Christ as outlined in the original post, "Blessed are the humble for they shall inherit the earth" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:5).

Christ did all for us Christians to be saved from the wrath of God! Praise Jesus, Savior and God!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Christ4Ever]

You literally just chopped off the Word of God detailing God's will:

And you do not consider the entirety of the word of God.

The entirety of Holy Scripture reveals:

• the Sovereignty of the good God,
• man is evil (evil Adam disobeyed God's only commandment with a punishment),
• the loving God redeems man by Christ's finished atonement.

Yes to 1
2 must have caveats. Did God make man evil? You must believe God made Adam evil or with the possibility of committing evil in order for it to be so.
3 Agree, yes with the same conditions by which God sent His Son in the first place. A gift unopened is wasted.

Your "even when scripture shows that man has to make decisions when it comes to this free gift of salvation" is false.

I guess I must be the devil then?

No Holy Scripture states man was imparted a free-will to choose God.

Never does the Word of God say "choose Me". Not once. You are coming from a no Word of God position.

It doesn't have to when it is evident that man must have it to make decisions. Which doesn't prevent God's Will from being done because He has foreknowledge.

This is why I said we are at a loggerhead, or are you just being obtuse because you were made that way and have no choice but to be so, while disregarding your own argument that I was made this way?

You might want to think about what the Apostles say.

You as well.

I don't ever see where any of the Apostles ever stated it in that way.

Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14). The Apostle Paul wrote profound Truth (John 14:6), here!

So, everything you say is because God makes you say them. Notice that is not a question but a statement. However, here are some "so's" for you to answer.

So, everything you write is because God has told you to write it as exactly as told to you to?
So, if I find error in what you write, then it is not you but God's who wanted the error communicated?
So, you can't do no wrong because it's not you but God, because He is in control of you and you have no choice in the matter?

You might want to think about the conversation between Jesus & Peter, when Jesus told Peter that He would deny Him. This is what one would call foreknowledge. He knew what Peter would do, even though Peter said he would not.

Christ4Ever, you wrote "He knew what Peter would do, even though Peter said he would not", so you convey it wasn’t Peter's free-will to deny Christ.

Oh, and you convey the opposite that Peter free-will chose to deny Christ.

You are trying to have it both ways.

A crucial point is this, no Holy Scripture states that Peter chose Jesus before nor after Peter denied Christ.

Nope, not both ways, just acknowledging that "foreknowledge" exists with God and so Jesus knew what was to transpire before it happened. For it to be otherwise, would mean that Jesus made Peter deny Him in order for His word to be confirmed, because Peter had no choice but to do so in the matter. Which is what you are saying that man does not have which is a choice or decision-making responsibility.

You can focus on the mechanism of Peter's denial all that you want, but I focus on the Redeemer redeeming the redeemed Peter.

Ah, but therein lies the issue between us, and why I say again with another word which means the same thing, impasse.

I fully believe in the Sovereignty of God and have no issue with it. However, I disagree with your conclusion that the existence of free will would negate God's Sovereignty.

Here's the blockage for free-willian philosophy tryimg to marry with the Sovereignty of God, you say "here is free-will right here in this verse" such as you are doing with Deuteronomy 17:8, but free-will is not there, and the Son of God says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so believe the Son!

One word "foreknowledge". Not too difficult to understand. Even for a......how about free-will denier.

Deuteronomy 17:8 - "Suppose a case arises in a local court that is too hard for you to decide--for instance, whether someone is guilty of murder or only of manslaughter, or a difficult lawsuit, or a case involving different kinds of assault. Take such legal cases to the place the LORD your God will choose,

God is the Master, and there is none greater than God! Hallelujah!

So, this means there is none that can have God in bondage, so there is no one for God to be "free" from incarceration - which means God does not have a free-will, but God does have God's will.

For man to say God has a free-will implies that God has a superior one to God.

Man has a will - just not a free-will (2 Peter 2:9-10; Philippians 2:13).

Alleluia! In agreement with your first sentence!

Little else after that. You assume that free-will implies that God has a superior, but that would mean God does not have foreknowledge which I have mentioned before to you that must be considered in how God does what He does and when discussing free-will.

What you have stated here does not negate free-will! The verses you quote only show that God has foreknowledge!

Man cannot thwart that which God foreknows; therefore, free-will exists not.

Christ4Ever, Lord Jesus uses past tense in his sayings about which you exclaimed "The verses you quote only show that God has foreknowledge". Here is the Word of God to which you referred:
you did not choose Me, but I chose you(John 15:16)I chose you out of the world(John 15:19, includes atonement)

I notice you didn't use anything that explains how foreknowledge works as it pertains to the Devine ability in choosing, which is:

[Rom 8:29, 38-39 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ... 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I left out the in-between verses because, regarding foreknowledge and free will, they were unnecessary for this discussion. I highlighted "For I am persuaded" because what does being persuaded mean to you in the context of human decision-making?

Of course man is helpless apart from God, but man decides on who He will follow, and causes his own separation not God, for he gives each a measure of faith to decide. God's foreknowledge as mentioned before allows Him to know who those are to be and His Atonement complete because God is the one who gave a measure of faith to all.

God did not give belief (faith) in Christ to unbelievers (unfaithful / no faith). None. Zero. Zilch.

You advocate for faith inside of people in hell, so you convey that faith fails to save from the wrath of God.

There is one faith (Ephesians 4:5), and this glorious faith is explained by Christ “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Agree. I saw my mistake later but choose not to do an edit and allow for you to respond to it. I was mixing the existence of God, that all of creation knows of Him by it, to those who are given a measure of faith, necessary to believe it. It did bring another question to mind though, and your consideration would be appreciated. Unless your answer is that "God chooses them". Then you can skip answering the question. lol

So, how can one then with faith not believe?

Mark 9:24 “I believe; help my unbelief!”

Sorry not "controls" but "constrains".
Analogy notwithstanding

In the passage "Christ's love controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14) which aligns with “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

Christ4Ever, do realize, you can use the word constrains, but you still end up with that which you try to escape of Christ's love constrains us to good and from evil.

The word controls derives from a Greek word with two root words, one word with the meaning "holds" and the second word with the meaning "together"; in other words, holds together is the Greek word from which the English word controls is translated, and holds together should sound familiar to you because of (Colossians 1:17).

controls = Strong's Greek: 4912. συνέχω (sunechó) -- To hold together, to constrain, to compel, to press

holds = Strong's Greek: 2192. ἔχω; (echó) -- To have, to hold, to possess

together = Strong's Greek: 4862. σύν (sun) -- with, together with, in company with

This is a very intimate depiction! Praise Jesus!

I thought you'd be more partial to constrains!

Greek Interlinear 2 Corinthians 5:14 - For the love - of Christ constrains us, judging this, that one on behalf of all men died; then the all died;

Same word in the Greek synechō with different infliction it seems. Depends on the translation one uses or prefers.

Not true, because faith comes from God.

You conveyed that the "believe" (faith) recorded in John 3:16 and John 3:36 are a function of man's free-will.

Please explain precisely your meaning since you wrote that my interpretation of your writing is false.

Function? I asked a question and answered it myself, stating it was man's moral responsibility. You can argue with God about why He wanted it written the way He did or why it was necessary if man has no decision-making or moral responsibility. I believe man does have this responsibility, though you don't, as free will doesn't exist in your non-free-will-denying philosophy reflects.

So, where did the word "free-willian" come from?

Praise the Lord! You are getting my relationship with my Father in Heaven!!!

Saves a lot of heartache.

God is the one who transforms the mind, think repentance, so "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect" (Romans 12:2). Free-will does not make sense with Romans 12:2.

The problem with this is, that they haven't received the Holy Spirit yet. You can be drawn to Jesus, but does this then mean they are made to repent and if they equivocate then that would be evidence that they weren't drawn or are being influenced by another power?

I do want to say in ending this post, thank-you. Well, not you really, but I thank God. lol
For all the Glory, Honor, and Praise is His brother. \o/

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Christ4Ever]

So, repentance has nothing to do with it?
I guess you have never repented of your sins but are being saved anyway.

I have encountered the Living God, and I have been thinking differently (repent) ever since by the grace of God!

You made a human assumption based upon what, Christ4Ever?

This is where context is important. My question was based upon the below scenario that you introduced into the conversation. So, I asked by question for clarification, since as you see that what you stated was assumed, unless you actually can read into the mind of the person as he is now following the act of murder they did.

Stop underthinking. Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10), the self-confessed murderer of Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages, acted according to his self-will separated from God.

Only the Sovereign God has the ability to choose Tyler unto salvation and to have Christ's finished atonement apply to Tyler and for Tyler to become a Christ image bearer with a Christ-like will.

Without God's intervention, self-willed Tyler goes to hell.

With that example you set, I posed a question. Your reply seems to say that there is no ability to repent without God making you do so. Is my assumption correct?

Isn't that true for all of us, which is why the sacrifice of Jesus was so essential?

And finally, as it pertains to self-will, what you are saying is that humanity as a whole from the very beginning was created as a "self-willed" being by God?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S.

Agree. I saw my mistake later but choose not to do an edit and allow for you to respond to it. I was mixing the existence of God, that all of creation knows of Him by it, to those who are given a measure of faith, necessary to believe it. It did bring another question to mind though, and your consideration would be appreciated. Unless your answer is that "God chooses them". Then you can skip answering the question. lol

As an addendum: It really depends on the translation you use. k

 

[Twistie]

Oh, Twistie, you tied the concepts of pride and humility into incoherent knots.

The pride of your human "free-will" exposes your resulting "I am sovereign above I AM" because of your free-willian "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation" (the opposite of the Word of God recorded in John 15:5 and John 15:16 and John 6:63 and John 15:19).

In Truth (John 14:6), humility is acknowledging the finished work of Christ as outlined in the original post, "Blessed are the humble for they shall inherit the earth" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:5).

Christ did all for us Christians to be saved from the wrath of God! Praise Jesus, Savior and God!

Love,
Kermos

I believe your mistaking with me I'm not debating with you I'm just letting ya know ya r on thin ice blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable n your doing what many of them temple owners do n that's not a smart thing..me personally it's no skin off my back if ya wanna stay in the dark don't wanna take counsel with the Lord that's your monkey.

Humble yourself before the Lord and seek Him while He still can be found for the Kingdom of God is at hand..

Hope all's well
(⁠@⁠_⁠@⁠)

 

[Twistie]

Oh, Twistie, you tied the concepts of pride and humility into incoherent knots.

The pride of your human "free-will" exposes your resulting "I am sovereign above I AM" because of your free-willian "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation" (the opposite of the Word of God recorded in John 15:5 and John 15:16 and John 6:63 and John 15:19).

In Truth (John 14:6), humility is acknowledging the finished work of Christ as outlined in the original post, "Blessed are the humble for they shall inherit the earth" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:5).

Christ did all for us Christians to be saved from the wrath of God! Praise Jesus, Savior and God!

Love,
Kermos

it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

ヾ⁠(⁠*⁠’⁠Ｏ⁠’⁠*⁠)⁠/

 

[Kermos]

Hi Christ4Ever,

Your lopping off the Word of God detailing God's will is astonishing:

​

I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me​

(John 5:30)​

​

I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do​

(John 17:4).​

​

I have given you an example​

(John 13:15).​

​

In stark contrast to Christ's words of "I can do nothing on My own initiative", you say you do choose God in your own initiative/will.

You just blew right past all of this, again, with:

And you do not consider the entirety of the word of God.

You do not consider the entirety of the Word of God.

Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to consider the entirety of the Word of God.

Yes to 1

You do have a caveat to the first point of "the Sovereignty of the good God" which is your own sovereignty of man by way of your man's free-will.

2 must have caveats.

Only for you to inject free-will where free-will does not exist in the the Word of God.

Did God make man evil? You must believe God made Adam evil or with the possibility of committing evil in order for it to be so.

There are no caveats for point 2 because the Word of God declares “no one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18); therefore, "man is evil (evil Adam disobeyed God's only commandment with a punishment)" just as point 2 established.

Adam was evil before he disobeyed God by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil while he was moving his hand holding his bite toward his mouth before his bite even touched his lips (Genesis 3:6). God created Adam (Genesis 2:7).

God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13, Genesis 1:31).

Adam was made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26), so Adam glorified himself in a manner like God glorifies Himself, but, in Christ, we Christians glorify God just like our Leader Christ!

Every person starts out like the flesh first man Adam, but, according to God's good will choice, God births man anew bearing the image of the heavenly second man Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:45-50)!

3 Agree, yes with the same conditions by which God sent His Son in the first place. A gift unopened is wasted.

You wrote "A gift unopened is wasted" about point 3, "the loving God redeems man by Christ's finished atonement", so you converted "Christ's finished atonement" into "Christ's failure atonement" just as outlined in the opening post.

The gift of Christ is received by us Christians, not by evil man free-will choosing God, but by the Sovereign God's choosing of man.

I guess I must be the devil then?

No.

It doesn't have to when it is evident that man must have it to make decisions.

Since the Word of God doesn't say "choose Me", then you add "choose Me" to the Word of God because you wrote "It doesn't have to when it is evident that man must have it to make decisions" despite the fact the Word of God, “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement), has been posted directly to you in this thread.

The only way for you to acheive free-will is for you to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Which doesn't prevent God's Will from being done because He has foreknowledge.

You cannot avoid events which God foreknows; therefore, you do not have free-will.

This is why I said we are at a loggerhead, or are you just being obtuse because you were made that way and have no choice but to be so,

Christ4Ever, are you just being obtuse because you are captive to your free-will?

while disregarding your own argument that I was made this way?

In Christ, I obey the commandments of the Lord, and the Lord is clear "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20)!

I believe the Word of God "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

You as well.

So, everything you say is because God makes you say them. Notice that is not a question but a statement. However, here are some "so's" for you to answer.

So, everything you write is because God has told you to write it as exactly as told to you to?
So, if I find error in what you write, then it is not you but God's who wanted the error communicated?
So, you can't do no wrong because it's not you but God, because He is in control of you and you have no choice in the matter?

You had posted "I don't ever see where any of the Apostles ever stated it in that way" (proof post #130) to which God caused me to respond with:

​

Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14). The Apostle Paul wrote profound Truth (John 14:6), here!​

​

So, that which you don't ever see exists in the Apostle's testimony.

Nope, not both ways, just acknowledging that "foreknowledge" exists with God and so Jesus knew what was to transpire before it happened. For it to be otherwise, would mean that Jesus made Peter deny Him in order for His word to be confirmed, because Peter had no choice but to do so in the matter. Which is what you are saying that man does not have which is a choice or decision-making responsibility.


Ah, but therein lies the issue between us, and why I say again with another word which means the same thing, impasse.



One word "foreknowledge". Not too difficult to understand. Even for a......how about free-will denier.

My Lord Jesus Christ alerts me and every Christian "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41).

So, it still remains that you are trying to have free-will both ways regarding Peter's denial of Christ. Christ foreknew the unavoidable event of Peter's denial of Christ, yet Peter denied Christ in Peter's flesh.

If I err, then it's my flesh; however, when I convey Truth (John 14:6), then it's fruit of the Spirit (John 3:21).

Alleluia! In agreement with your first sentence!

Little else after that. You assume that free-will implies that God has a superior, but that would mean God does not have foreknowledge which I have mentioned before to you that must be considered in how God does what He does and when discussing free-will.



I notice you didn't use anything that explains how foreknowledge works as it pertains to the Devine ability in choosing, which is:

[Rom 8:29, 38-39 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ... 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I left out the in-between verses because, regarding foreknowledge and free will, they were unnecessary for this discussion. I highlighted "For I am persuaded" because what does being persuaded mean to you in the context of human decision-making?

Your Free-willian Philosophy has God's foreknowledge being dependent upon man's free-will whih leads to the sovereignty of man about salvation.

Did you look at the verb persuaded's Greek source word of πείθω (peithó) Strong's 3982 which also means assure, believe, convinced, and trust.

Look again at Christ's saying "I can do nothing on My own initiative", yet In stark contrast to Christ's words, you say you do persuade yourself to choose God in your own initiative/will.

Christ's love controls us Christians for we are persuaded by God that “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

Agree. I saw my mistake later but choose not to do an edit and allow for you to respond to it. I was mixing the existence of God, that all of creation knows of Him by it, to those who are given a measure of faith, necessary to believe it. It did bring another question to mind though, and your consideration would be appreciated. Unless your answer is that "God chooses them". Then you can skip answering the question. lol

So, how can one then with faith not believe?

Mark 9:24 “I believe; help my unbelief!”

Did he think he had belief, but then, in the moment, he realized he didn't have belief, previously, which would mean that he truly received belief at that moment while he encountered Christ right there?

That man was speaking those words, not Christ.

I thought you'd be more partial to constrains!

Greek Interlinear 2 Corinthians 5:14 - For the love - of Christ constrains us, judging this, that one on behalf of all men died; then the all died;

Same word in the Greek synechō with different infliction it seems. Depends on the translation one uses or prefers.

You thought wrong, Christ4Ever.

Whether controls or continued, the effect remains the same in Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Do you recall when "Then you are surely wrong" (proof post #118)?

Function? I asked a question and answered it myself, stating it was man's moral responsibility. You can argue with God about why He wanted it written the way He did or why it was necessary if man has no decision-making or moral responsibility. I believe man does have this responsibility, though you don't, as free will doesn't exist in your non-free-will-denying philosophy reflects.

So, where did the word "free-willian" come from?


Saves a lot of heartache.


The problem with this is, that they haven't received the Holy Spirit yet. You can be drawn to Jesus, but does this then mean they are made to repent and if they equivocate then that would be evidence that they weren't drawn or are being influenced by another power?

I do want to say in ending this post, thank-you. Well, not you really, but I thank God. lol
For all the Glory, Honor, and Praise is His brother. \o/

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Did you know that the letter to Rome by Paul was written to believers in Christ as per Paul's salutation of "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 1:7.)?

Free-will does not make sense with Romans 12:2 because God alone transforms a human mind (think repentance) to think in a manner acceptable to God.

Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10), the self-confessed murderer of Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages, does not transform his mind to that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Only the Sovereign God has the ability to choose to transform Tyler's mind and to have Christ's finished atonement apply to Tyler and for Tyler to become a Christ image bearer with a Christ-like will.

Without God's intervention, self-willed Tyler goes to hell.

You have confused unbiblical "free-will" with Biblical self-will. It is confusion to add free-will where free-will is absent in the Word of God.

I must add that your mocking in your "I do want to say in ending this post, thank-you. Well, not you really, but I thank God. lol For all the Glory, Honor, and Praise is His brother. \o/" - that "laugh out loud" ("lol") - regarding the Lord's glory and honor and praise is so very bad.

Love,
Kermos

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Christ4Ever,

Your lopping off the Word of God detailing God's will is astonishing:
I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me(John 5:30)I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do(John 17:4).I have given you an example(John 13:15).
In stark contrast to Christ's words of "I can do nothing on My own initiative", you say you do choose God in your own initiative/will.

You just blew right past all of this, again, with:

And you do not consider the entirety of the word of God.

Hi Christ4Ever,

Your lopping off the Word of God detailing God's will is astonishing:
I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me(John 5:30)I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do(John 17:4).I have given you an example(John 13:15).
In stark contrast to Christ's words of "I can do nothing on My own initiative", you say you do choose God in your own initiative/will.

You just blew right past all of this, again, with:

You do not consider the entirety of the Word of God.

Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to consider the entirety of the Word of God.

I didn’t overlook anything and claiming that I’ve disregarded the Word of God simply by quoting scripture is both incorrect and disingenuous on your part. I understand your position clearly, and without ambiguity because it is not a difficult position to have. The Word speaks for itself, but when faced with humanity's decision-making challenges, you rely on scriptures that naturally support your viewpoint, without contradicting what is being presented according to the Word of God. If you can't or are unable to consider all of Scripture, then you will always be at fault in the doctrine that you set forth as truth.

Yes to 1

You do have a caveat to the first point of "the Sovereignty of the good God" which is your own sovereignty of man by way of your man's free-will.

Foolishness on your part to even state that, when it is you who have the caveat to the 1st pt., when you won't allow yourself to even consider how foreknowledge allows for free-will to exist.

The entirety of Holy Scripture reveals:

• man is evil (evil Adam disobeyed God's only commandment with a punishment),

2 must have caveats. Did God make man evil? You must believe God made Adam evil or with the possibility of committing evil in order for it to be so.

Only for you to inject free-will where free-will does not exist in the the Word of God.

I bolded the only part you quoted. This is why context is important to have. You failed to answer my question with the caveats, which is true as true can be with your #2 pt. in mind. Especially if one considers your point that only God's Will exists, without taking into account foreknowledge for man's decision-making prior to the fall.

You always revert to your previous comment because you can't entertain the possibility that free will exists because of God's foreknowledge. That's your issue to reconcile, not mine.

Did God make man evil? You must believe God made Adam evil or with the possibility of committing evil in order for it to be so.

There are no caveats for point 2 because the Word of God declares “no one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18); therefore, "man is evil (evil Adam disobeyed God's only commandment with a punishment)" just as point 2 established.

Adam was evil before he disobeyed God by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil while he was moving his hand holding his bite toward his mouth before his bite even touched his lips (Genesis 3:6). God created Adam (Genesis 2:7).

God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13, Genesis 1:31).

Adam was made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26), so Adam glorified himself in a manner like God glorifies Himself, but, in Christ, we Christians glorify God just like our Leader Christ!

Every person starts out like the flesh first man Adam, but, according to God's good will choice, God births man anew bearing the image of the heavenly second man Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:45-50)!

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Not just good, but very good! However, we know that Adam/the man did not remain so. Why did he not remain "very good"? This is why again I caution that you use text, context, greater context. Without it, yes Mark 10:18 stands, but it speaks to the nuance of what Jesus was talking about to the man who Jesus was talking to specifically and the entirety of God's Creation prior to the corruption/fall! And you accuse me of "...lopping off the Word of God..."!

Otherwise, you are saying exactly what I presented to you in #2 pt. "Did God make man evil? You must believe God made Adam evil or with the possibility of committing evil in order for it to be so." So, which one is it? Even considering the 1st Adam/flesh! Also, again unless you are saying by quoting 1 Corinthians 15:45-50 that the flesh God created the 1st Adam in at the very beginning, was corrupted and not good! Is that how you are reading that???

It doesn't have to when it is evident that man must have it to make decisions.

Since the Word of God doesn't say "choose Me", then you add "choose Me" to the Word of God because you wrote "It doesn't have to when it is evident that man must have it to make decisions" despite the fact the Word of God, “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement), has been posted directly to you in this thread.

The only way for you to acheive free-will is for you to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Then answer me this: What does God's foreknowledge allow for and does it negate free will or not?

I'm sad for you accusing me of something I have not done. It shouldn't be so, but I guess that is how you roll.

Which doesn't prevent God's Will from being done because He has foreknowledge.

You cannot avoid events which God foreknows; therefore, you do not have free-will.

The concept of free will is supported by the belief that, even though God knows the future, foreknowledge, people are still responsible for their choices and decisions. Bible shows instances of this very thing.

This is why I said we are at a loggerhead, or are you just being obtuse because you were made that way and have no choice but to be so,

Christ4Ever, are you just being obtuse because you are captive to your free-will?

lol - 2 Corinthians 4:17-18

You as well.

So, everything you say is because God makes you say them. Notice that is not a question but a statement. However, here are some "so's" for you to answer.

So, everything you write is because God has told you to write it as exactly as told to you to?
So, if I find error in what you write, then it is not you but God's who wanted the error communicated?
So, you can't do no wrong because it's not you but God, because He is in control of you and you have no choice in the matter?

You had posted "I don't ever see where any of the Apostles ever stated it in that way" (proof post #130) to which God caused me to respond with:
Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14). The Apostle Paul wrote profound Truth (John 14:6), here!So, that which you don't ever see exists in the Apostle's testimony.

So, made & cause are the same, but choose & decide are not?

So, it still remains that you are trying to have free-will both ways regarding Peter's denial of Christ.

Nope, just trying to show you cause and effect.

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Hi Christ4Ever,

Your lopping off the Word of God detailing God's will is astonishing:

I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me
(John 5:30)

I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do
(John 17:4).

I have given you an example
(John 13:15).

In stark contrast to Christ's words of "I can do nothing on My own initiative", you say you do choose God in your own initiative/will.

You just blew right past all of this, again, with:

And you do not consider the entirety of the word of God.

You do not consider the entirety of the Word of God.

Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to consider the entirety of the Word of God.

Yes to 1

You do have a caveat to the first point of "the Sovereignty of the good God" which is your own sovereignty of man by way of your man's free-will.

2 must have caveats.

Only for you to inject free-will where free-will does not exist in the the Word of God.

Did God make man evil? You must believe God made Adam evil or with the possibility of committing evil in order for it to be so.

There are no caveats for point 2 because the Word of God declares “no one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18); therefore, "man is evil (evil Adam disobeyed God's only commandment with a punishment)" just as point 2 established.

Adam was evil before he disobeyed God by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil while he was moving his hand holding his bite toward his mouth before his bite even touched his lips (Genesis 3:6). God created Adam (Genesis 2:7).

God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13, Genesis 1:31).

Adam was made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26), so Adam glorified himself in a manner like God glorifies Himself, but, in Christ, we Christians glorify God just like our Leader Christ!

Every person starts out like the flesh first man Adam, but, according to God's good will choice, God births man anew bearing the image of the heavenly second man Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:45-50)!

3 Agree, yes with the same conditions by which God sent His Son in the first place. A gift unopened is wasted.

You wrote "A gift unopened is wasted" about point 3, "the loving God redeems man by Christ's finished atonement", so you converted "Christ's finished atonement" into "Christ's failure atonement" just as outlined in the opening post.

The gift of Christ is received by us Christians, not by evil man free-will choosing God, but by the Sovereign God's choosing of man.

I guess I must be the devil then?

No.

It doesn't have to when it is evident that man must have it to make decisions.

Since the Word of God doesn't say "choose Me", then you add "choose Me" to the Word of God because you wrote "It doesn't have to when it is evident that man must have it to make decisions" despite the fact the Word of God, “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement), has been posted directly to you in this thread.

The only way for you to acheive free-will is for you to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Which doesn't prevent God's Will from being done because He has foreknowledge.

You cannot avoid events which God foreknows; therefore, you do not have free-will.

This is why I said we are at a loggerhead, or are you just being obtuse because you were made that way and have no choice but to be so,

Christ4Ever, are you just being obtuse because you are captive to your free-will?

while disregarding your own argument that I was made this way?

In Christ, I obey the commandments of the Lord, and the Lord is clear "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20)!

I believe the Word of God "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

You as well.

So, everything you say is because God makes you say them. Notice that is not a question but a statement. However, here are some "so's" for you to answer.

So, everything you write is because God has told you to write it as exactly as told to you to?
So, if I find error in what you write, then it is not you but God's who wanted the error communicated?
So, you can't do no wrong because it's not you but God, because He is in control of you and you have no choice in the matter?

You had posted "I don't ever see where any of the Apostles ever stated it in that way" (proof post #130) to which God caused me to respond with:

Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14). The Apostle Paul wrote profound Truth (John 14:6), here!

So, that which you don't ever see exists in the Apostle's testimony.

Nope, not both ways, just acknowledging that "foreknowledge" exists with God and so Jesus knew what was to transpire before it happened. For it to be otherwise, would mean that Jesus made Peter deny Him in order for His word to be confirmed, because Peter had no choice but to do so in the matter. Which is what you are saying that man does not have which is a choice or decision-making responsibility.


Ah, but therein lies the issue between us, and why I say again with another word which means the same thing, impasse.



One word "foreknowledge". Not too difficult to understand. Even for a......how about free-will denier.
Click to expand...

My Lord Jesus Christ alerts me and every Christian "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41).

So, it still remains that you are trying to have free-will both ways regarding Peter's denial of Christ. Christ foreknew the unavoidable event of Peter's denial of Christ, yet Peter denied Christ in Peter's flesh.

If I err, then it's my flesh; however, when I convey Truth (John 14:6), then it's fruit of the Spirit (John 3:21).

Alleluia! In agreement with your first sentence!

Little else after that. You assume that free-will implies that God has a superior, but that would mean God does not have foreknowledge which I have mentioned before to you that must be considered in how God does what He does and when discussing free-will.



I notice you didn't use anything that explains how foreknowledge works as it pertains to the Devine ability in choosing, which is:

[Rom 8:29, 38-39 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ... 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I left out the in-between verses because, regarding foreknowledge and free will, they were unnecessary for this discussion. I highlighted "For I am persuaded" because what does being persuaded mean to you in the context of human decision-making?

Your Free-willian Philosophy has God's foreknowledge being dependent upon man's free-will whih leads to the sovereignty of man about salvation.

Did you look at the verb persuaded's Greek source word of πείθω (peithó) Strong's 3982 which also means assure, believe, convinced, and trust.

Look again at Christ's saying "I can do nothing on My own initiative", yet In stark contrast to Christ's words, you say you do persuade yourself to choose God in your own initiative/will.

Christ's love controls us Christians for we are persuaded by God that “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

I would get into this part with you, but something tells me you don't believe in the Trinity. For if you do not, then any continued discussion in that area would have you banned.

Agree. I saw my mistake later but choose not to do an edit and allow for you to respond to it. I was mixing the existence of God, that all of creation knows of Him by it, to those who are given a measure of faith, necessary to believe it. It did bring another question to mind though, and your consideration would be appreciated. Unless your answer is that "God chooses them". Then you can skip answering the question. lol

So, how can one then with faith not believe?

Mark 9:24 “I believe; help my unbelief!”

Did he think he had belief, but then, in the moment, he realized he didn't have belief, previously, which would mean that he truly received belief at that moment while he encountered Christ right there?

That man was speaking those words, not Christ.

Belief had him search out Jesus, but when faced with the reality of Jesus, he doubted.
Happens to a lot of people, but that is God's will, isn't it?

You thought wrong, Christ4Ever.

lol

No accepting? So, "whoever believes" is not a decision-making notation? To answer so you don't have to. It falls under a moral responsibility, which is part of God's Will for us. This is also the case in v36.
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

You nullified “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) with your paragraph, there.

Not true, because faith comes from God.

Function? I asked a question and answered it myself, stating it was man's moral responsibility. You can argue with God about why He wanted it written the way He did or why it was necessary if man has no decision-making or moral responsibility. I believe man does have this responsibility, though you don't, as free will doesn't exist in your non-free-will-denying philosophy reflects.

So, where did the word "free-willian" come from?


Saves a lot of heartache.


The problem with this is, that they haven't received the Holy Spirit yet. You can be drawn to Jesus, but does this then mean they are made to repent and if they equivocate then that would be evidence that they weren't drawn or are being influenced by another power?

I do want to say in ending this post, thank-you. Well, not you really, but I thank God. lol
For all the Glory, Honor, and Praise is His brother. \o/

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
Click to expand...

Did you know that the letter to Rome by Paul was written to believers in Christ as per Paul's salutation of "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 1:7.)?

Free-will does not make sense with Romans 12:2 because God alone transforms a human mind (think repentance) to think in a manner acceptable to God.

Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10), the self-confessed murderer of Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages, does not transform his mind to that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Only the Sovereign God has the ability to choose to transform Tyler's mind and to have Christ's finished atonement apply to Tyler and for Tyler to become a Christ image bearer with a Christ-like will.

Without God's intervention, self-willed Tyler goes to hell.

You have confused unbiblical "free-will" with Biblical self-will. It is confusion to add free-will where free-will is absent in the Word of God.

Where does "self-willed" come from?
I know these kinds of questions might not sit well with you, as they point to a truth you may not want to or are able to address. Still, I ask them.

If "self-willed" is separate from God, as scripture suggests, then it’s no different from free will because God allows for it to be so and neither one can negate God's Will. The problem you are having is that you believe when "free-will" is used that it is seen as being absolute. It is not. It's always within God's sovereign plan. It might help you if you would see that God is "out of time". Meaning that for God everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, from yesterday, today, tomorrow is always in the "Now". That is why Jesus said "only the Father knows the time" (Matthew 24:36), because Jesus was in time, but God is not and why He has no beginning or end.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Kermos]

I believe your mistaking with me I'm not debating with you I'm just letting ya know ya r on thin ice blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable n your doing what many of them temple owners do n that's not a smart thing..me personally it's no skin off my back if ya wanna stay in the dark don't wanna take counsel with the Lord that's your monkey.

Humble yourself before the Lord and seek Him while He still can be found for the Kingdom of God is at hand..

Hope all's well
(⁠@⁠_⁠@⁠)

Twistie, thank you for the "Hope all's well", and I can tell you all is well because the King of Heaven, Lord Jesus Christ, has ransomed me and works in me and is in me to be in the Light (John 8:12, John 6:29).

Twistie, you do not know the Light (John 8:12, John 1:4-5) unless God works in you for the Light shines this wonderful saying “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

If you are not in the Light, then you are in darkness.

The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool spouts folly (Proverbs 15:2), and your "ya r on thin ice blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable" is you writing in opposition to the Holy Spirit indwelling me even the Holy Spirit causing me to commend the Light, so you slander (blaspheme) against the Holy Spirit (see post #60 to you).

Believe the Light!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

Twistie, thank you for the "Hope all's well", and I can tell you all is well because the King of Heaven, Lord Jesus Christ, has ransomed me and works in me and is in me to be in the Light (John 8:12, John 6:29).

Twistie, you do not know the Light (John 8:12, John 1:4-5) unless God works in you for the Light shines this wonderful saying “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

If you are not in the Light, then you are in darkness.

The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool spouts folly (Proverbs 15:2), and your "ya r on thin ice blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable" is you writing in opposition to the Holy Spirit indwelling me even the Holy Spirit causing me to commend the Light, so you slander (blaspheme) against the Holy Spirit (see post #60 to you).

Believe the Light!

Love,
Kermos

Truth remains the same you are like crashing waves..

I understand you don't need to ponder m take counsel with the Lord your all knowing..

Good luck with that monkey..

Hope all's well

⁽⁠⁽⁠ଘ⁠(⁠ ⁠ˊ⁠ᵕ⁠ˋ⁠ ⁠)⁠ଓ⁠⁾⁠⁾