I am sorry that this post is so long but I wanted to get the message across.
As you have said this is to debate, but if I consider that I am now born again, sealed in the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, having been consecrated (set apart), sanctified and being sanctified (Phil 1:6), and when Jesus returns and I am caught up in the air with Him to be ever with Him I am bring glorified. If, between consecrated and glorification I cannot intentionally sin that will cause me to fall away, then I can do as I very well please because my salvation is complete. We are constantly warned not to be deceived. If Genesis 3 is correct then I better remain obedient or else I will fall away. 1) Adam and Eve sin: 2) They cover their sin in self righteousness; 3) they, and the serpent, are judged by God and Adam and Eve are separated from God; 4) God makes garments of skin for them pointing them to the more perfect sacrifice that would be made later as per Gen 3:15 (Gen 3:21); 5) God then blocks the way back to the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life with Cherubim and a flaming sword – which we know is the mercy seat and the Word of God. All those coming to salvation will have to come through that flaming sword (Word that judges the thoughts and the intents of the heart (Heb 4:12),
the Gospel) back to the Tree of Life and into fellowship with God again. In that garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is still there and so is the serpent that seduces (2 Cor 11). Satan will always attempt to get us back under the law and in the flesh which, like certain denominations, the Holy Spirit will depart from them.
I have put a lengthy response below but that most of it is scripture.
Read Ezek 18 in total ... the soul that sins will die. <strong>Ezek 18: 20-24 </strong><strong>20 </strong>
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. <strong>21 </strong>“
But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.<strong>22 </strong>
None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.<strong>23 </strong>Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?<strong> </strong>But when a
righteous person t
urns away from his righteousness and does i
njustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live?
None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. The New Testament equivalent to this is that we must bear fruit by
keeping with repentance. This means that we must continue to want to be free from this world and its lusts as per 1John 1: <strong>1</strong>5
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world,
the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world-the desires
of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions-is not from the Father but is from the world. 17 And the world is passing away along with its desires,
but whoever does the will of God abides forever. The desires of the flesh, eyes and the pride in possessions is what caused Satan and ultimately man to fall in Gen 3. If we are once saved always saved it doesn’t matter what we do we are going to heaven. Nonsense. There are many false teachers and prophets in the world today and they are seducing spirits wanting those in Christ to capitulate and this is what is happening today. Why would Satan bother!!? Apostasy is happening everywhere. There is the true bride of Christ and there is the false and the false have stolen and claim as their own the gifts and ministries contained in 1 Cor 12, Rom 12, Eph 4. What does Paul say in 2 Cor 11? <em><strong>1 </strong></em>
I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! <em><strong>2 </strong></em>
For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. <em><u><strong>3 </strong></u></em>
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. <em><strong>4 </strong></em>
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. <em><strong>5 </strong></em>
Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. <em><strong>6 </strong></em>
Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things. <em><strong>7 </strong></em>
Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge? <em><strong>8 </strong></em>
I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. <em><strong>9 </strong></em>
And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. <em><strong>10 </strong></em>
As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. <em><strong>11 </strong></em>
And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! <em><strong>12 </strong></em>
And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. <em><strong>13 </strong></em>
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. <em><u><strong>14 </strong></u></em>
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. <em><u><strong>15 </strong></u></em>
So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
This falls in line with<strong> Matt 24:44 </strong>
Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is
coming at an hour you do not expect. <strong>45 </strong>“Who then is the
faithful and wise servant,
<em>3 </em> whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?
<strong>46 </strong>Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. <strong>47 </strong>Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. <strong>48 </strong>But if that
wicked servant says to himself, ‘My
master is delayed,’ <strong>49 </strong>and
begins to beat his fellow servants<em>4 </em> and
eats and drinks with drunkards, <strong>50 </strong>the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know <strong>51 </strong>and w
ill cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This continues in Matt 25 regarding the 5 faithful virgins and the 5 foolish virgins:
<strong>Matt 25:1 </strong>“T
hen the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps<em>1 </em> and went to meet the bridegroom.<em>2 </em><em><strong>2 </strong></em>
Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. <em><strong>3 </strong></em>
For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, <em><strong>4 </strong></em>
but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
<strong>5 </strong>As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. <strong>6 </strong>But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ <strong>7 </strong>Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. <strong>8 </strong>And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’<strong>9 </strong>But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’<strong>10 </strong>And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
<strong>11 </strong>Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’<strong>12 </strong>But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’<strong>13 </strong>Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour
In the tradition of Israel at the time a man meets a woman and wants to marry her. He takes a proposal of marriage to her father and the father looks at the proposal. The bridegroom to be will take a silver goblet and fills it with red wine. He offers to the woman this cup. If she drinks from this cup she accepts him and she immediately covers her face with a veil to show that she has been set apart for marriage. She will then light the oil lamp and keep it trimmed. She would always be <em>ready</em> for the return of the bridegroom. She would be prepared for that wedding. He then goes away to prepare a place for His bride (John 14).
This is exactly what Jesus did for us as the bride of Christ. He went to the father with a proposal of marriage, the Father agrees. Jesus goes to the cross shedding His Blood for us taking on Himself our judgement. The Word becomes flesh and dwells amongst us (John 1:1-14). He goes to the cross and brings in the New Covenant with His own Blood. So, He presents us with His body and Blood in the last supper. He presents us with unleavened bread and a silver goblet (silver in the Bible represents redemption) of red wine and presents it to us. We eat the unleavened bread remembering His body broken for us and He presents the silver goblet full of wine saying this is the new covenant in my Blood. All who drink of this wine accept His proposal of marriage. We are sealed in the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, we have been redeemed, are being redeemed and will be redeemed on His return. Take note that The Holy Spirit is given to us to prepare us for His return. Five wise virgin kept their oil lamps trimmed five were foolish and allowed the oil to run dry showing that they had not remained faithful.
<strong>1 Cor 10:1-12 1</strong><em><strong> </strong></em>For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, <em><strong>2 </strong></em>and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
<em><strong>3 </strong></em>and all ate the same spiritual food, <em><strong>4 </strong></em>and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. <em><strong>5 </strong></em>Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. <em><strong>6 </strong></em>Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. <em><strong>7 </strong></em>Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.”
<em><strong>8 </strong></em>We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. <em><strong>9 </strong></em>We must not put Christ<em><u><strong>2 </strong></u></em> to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, <em><u><strong>10 </strong></u></em>nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. <em><strong>11 </strong></em>Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. <em><strong>12 </strong></em>Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.
Passing through the sea in Exodus is a picture of water baptism, They were baptised into the cloud and the sea. All ate the same spiritual food. They all drank from the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them and that rock was Christ. We were all baptised in the Holy Spirit (Cloud) and the sea (water baptism).
Once saved always saved is not biblical by any means. As mentioned in the beginning of this response we must always remember that once we come back to God through Jesus Christ we are again eating from the tree of life. Gen 3:21 shows Gods plan for salvation, He revealed it to them before they were put out of fellowship with Him. Then God put the cherubim and the flaming sword to block the way to the Tree of Life. Fire refers to judgement and the sword is the Word of God. One must come to salvation through the preaching of the Gospel and that was set in Gen 3:21. All who come this route have come back into a relationship with God and are again instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is a complete teaching on its own. Gen 3:15 states plainly that there is a war between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. The seed of the woman is Jesus Christ and the seed of the serpent is Antichrist. The serpent is the seducer and refers specifically to religion. John the Baptist called them a brood of vipers. Jesus always confronted the religious of His day and we, as the body of Christ, are still doing that. The religious persecute the true body of Christ just read Rev 13 and see who are the ones who will kill those who will not take the mark of the beast in order to buy and sell. Dan 7:18-27 and Dan 11:30-35 and Dan 12:10 describes what the Antichrist will do in order to get the saints to forsake the holy covenant. This persecution will show those who have remained faithful and those who have not. It will also show who the false self-righteous people are who are in the churches.
Satan operates in two different modes, seducer and dragon. In Gen 3 He is operating as the seducer. In Rev 12 we see him operating as the dragon. The seducer uses the false church or more commonly known as the bride of the Antichrist or ecumenical/interfaith movements in an attempt to seduce those who are in Christ away from God. Make no two ways about it Satan is causing an apostasy right now in our day. 2Thes 2:3 says: Let no one deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. You can not fall away if you were never there in the first place. Jesus Himself said in Matt 24:4-5; See to it that no one misleads you, For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will mislead many.
Evil women in the Old Testament are used as pictures of false religions. Delilah is one of them, Jezebel another, Jezebels daughter in 2 Kings 11.another. Proverbs 2 distinctly tells us not to listen to the woman with the flattering lips because her way goes down to hell.
9Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path;
<strong>10 </strong>for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
<strong>11 </strong>discretion will watch over you, understanding will guard you,
<strong>12 </strong>delivering you from the way of evil, from men of perverted speech,
<strong>13 </strong>who forsake the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness,
<strong>14 </strong>who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil,
<strong>15 </strong>men whose paths are crooked, and who are devious in their ways.
<em><strong>16 </strong></em>
So you will be delivered from the forbidden<em><u><strong>1 </strong></u></em> woman, from the adulteress<em><u><strong>2 </strong></u></em> with her smooth words,
<strong>17 </strong>who forsakes the companion of her youth and forgets the covenant of her God;
<em><strong>18 </strong></em>
for her house sinks down to death, and her paths to the departed;<em>3 </em>
<strong>19 </strong>none who go to her come back, nor do they regain the paths of life.
<strong>20 </strong>So you will walk in the way of the good and keep to the paths of the righteous.
<strong>21 </strong>For the upright will inhabit the land, and those with integrity will remain in it,
<em><strong>22 </strong></em>
but the wicked will be cut off from the land, and the treacherous will be rooted out of it.
There is a picture of how this seduction works in the story of Samson and Delilah. She nagged and nagged Samson to give the secret of His strength and when he disobeyed God the Glory of God departed from Him. The Holy Spirit left him and He was overpowered and defeated. They gouged out his eyes so that he was blind. He became spiritually blind and he did not know it until the persecution came from the Philistines. When it came he discovered he could not overpower them and that was the end. He became a slave and fortunately for him his hair started to grow again and he accomplished what God wanted him to do. Judges 13-16 with emphasis on chapter 16. The false church is doing the same, they look like the real thing but they are nothing but deceiving prophets/apostles/teachers who are tools in Satan’s hands to deceive the church.
Additionally look at the man of wisdom Solomon who asked God for wisdom in order to be able to rule over the Israelites. God granted him that but what did he do? He walked with God yet married 700 and 300 women/concubines respectively many of which were from foreign peoples. He even married Pharaohs daughter and Pharaoh is a type of the Satan possessed Antichrist. They brought in with them their religions and eventually Samson fell away from God because of them. Read 1 kings 2 where King David gives instructions to his son Solomon to walk in the ways of the Lord. 1 Kings 2:<em><strong>1 </strong></em>When David's time to die drew near, he commanded Solomon his son, saying,<em><strong>2 </strong></em>“I am about to go the way of all the earth. Be strong, and show yourself a man,<em><strong>3 </strong></em>and keep the charge of the LORD your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn,<em><strong>4 </strong></em>that the LORD may establish his word that he spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons pay close attention to their way, to walk before me in faithfulness with all their heart and with all their soul, you shall not lack<em>1 </em> a man on the throne of Israel.’ Then read 1 Kings 11:<em><strong>1</strong></em><em><strong> </strong></em>Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, <em><strong>2 </strong></em>from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the people of Israel, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. <em><strong>3 </strong></em>He had 700 wives, princesses, and 300 concubines. And his wives turned away his heart. <em><u><strong>4 </strong></u></em>For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. <em><strong>5 </strong></em>For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. <em><u><strong>6 </strong></u></em>So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done. <em><strong>7 </strong></em>Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. <em><strong>8 </strong></em>And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
I can go on and on but as you have seen I have covered nearly 6 pages disproving that once saved always saved is an invalid doctrine. Right through the New Testament you will find Jesus and the Apostles warning people of false brothers and sisters in Christ. I have shown you examples that prove what I am saying. Again I emphasis that these things that happended in the Old Testament were written for our instruction that we do not do the same things.1 Cor 10:10-11.
Here is a valid saying: the NEW is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed.
We Use the Word of God to measure people up to see if they are bearing fruit to the Holy Spirit and that they are propagating sound biblical doctrine. When Paul confronted the Corinthians and the Galatians was he being judgemental? When Paul told them to hand over the man having sexual relations with his fathers wife to Satan and put him out of fellowship was he being judgemental? No, he simply measured him up against the Word of God and found him wanting.
I have gone on far too long. I will end it here.
Agreed lol.
