The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

[KingJ]

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone WHOSE NAME HAS NOT BEEN WRITTEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB who was slain.

What translation is this verse? The KJV and the NIV clearly state that 'before foundation of the world' relates to Jesus. A reference to Eph 1:4.

KJV - Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

KJV - Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[KingJ]

All of this is not likely to be true because Yehovah knows the end from the beginning and He knows when and how each of us will pass over and has known from before creation. (Isaiah 46:9-10) Not cherry picking, there are other references.

I don't like lines like this as it opens the imagination to partiality by God. We need to explain that a contentious verse like that has a specific meaning and cannot be read in isolation or else it will push a narrative of God being partial.

Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

Grasping God's 'omniscience' is beyond us. Much like how He came to be.

But what we do know from scripture, what we need to add to verses like Isa 46:10 and 1 John 3:20 is the following:

1. God is as good as He is great.

He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.
He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.
It is unthinkable that He do what is wicked Job 34:12.

2. Scripture literally says He is impartial.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favouritism.
Rom 2:11 For God does not show favouritism.
1 Tim 2:4 God wills that all be saved.

And Deut 10:17, James 2:1-13, 1 Pet 1:17

3. Partiality is evil.

This is an evil a Christian must never teach. It grossly misrepresents God to the lost that He loves and died for. It is pure evil and God is not evil.

4. All babies go to heaven.

Matt 19:14 + bible study on a number of verses. In fact according to Num 14:29 an argument can be made for all under twenty.

((Babies and children will not stay indefinitely heaven. If God put the devil with Adam and Eve, He will do so with all. They will get their time. This is why most scholars believe is the purpose for millennium. It is for babies, but this is quite a bible study.))

----------------

Conclusion:

1 John 3:20 + Rom 9:21 = 5 Point Calvinism = God cherry picks people for heaven

1 John 3:20 + Rom 9:21 + Matt 19:14 + Acts 10:34 + Rom 2:11 + 1 Tim 2:4 + Psalm 145:17 = God is as good as He is great = God does not cherry pick people for heaven.

Grasping God is very difficult, near impossible for us. We need to use all scripture available on a topic to better grasp the truth.

A Christian must be terrified of misrepresenting God to the lost that He loves and died for.

Thread 'Free will'

Mar 5, 2024

It seems many do not believe in true free will and many who do, have a hard time defending it.

It is actually a very simple topic with a very simple answer and one that has irrefutable evidence.

Anti free will argument = God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. One who can create from a lump of clay a vessel unto honor or dishonor Rom 9:21. True free will is an illusion as He is omniscient (all knowing). He can't but help the fact that He is an all knowing and all powerful God. Knowing from day one who is en-route to hell and who is en-route to heaven.

Free will argument:

1. God...

• KingJ
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Bible Study

• 

 

[Curtis]

What translation is this verse? The KJV and the NIV clearly state that 'before foundation of the world' relates to Jesus. A reference to Eph 1:4.

KJV - Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

KJV - Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (ESV)

Rev 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed. (NET)

Rev 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NAS)

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASV)

There are other translation that say the same thing these are just a few.

 

[KingJ]

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (ESV)

Rev 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed. (NET)

Rev 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NAS)

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASV)

There are other translation that say the same thing these are just a few.

It is quite a big difference in meaning between the NIV and KJV versions compared to these.

NIV and KJV speak to the 'whomsoever' become Christians were chosen to be in Christ before the foundations of the earth. The others seem to push a Calvinistic narrative. 'Your name was either written or not, before the foundations of the earth'.

Wow, biggest issue I have seen on differing translations in a while.

 

[B-A-C]

Another thought here.

(AMPC) And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

Several years back, I was in a very small town in Montana. It was more or less a ghost town. But it did have museum in the middle of town.
It had a sign that said "Open" on the door. Sure enough you could open the door and walk in. There was no one in the place, but there
was a sign on the desk with a phone number you could call. It actually had an old land line type phone on the desk. There was some candy and snacks in a bookshelf looking stand. It had a jar with some change in it. It had prices on the candy. I suppose it was the honor system. They trusted you to pay for whatever you took.

Also on the desk was a guestbook. I flipped through some of the pages. It had hundreds and hundreds of names... from many many
US states, also a few from Canada, and Mexico, possibly other countries, I don't know. There was a pen next to the guestbook. It was chained to the desk. I suppose it was so no one would walk off with the pen.

There was a plaque on the wall, that said this building was built in the early 1800's. (I don't remember the exact year) It seems it used to be a Hotel/Saloon back in those days. It had a lot of black and white pictures on the wall.

But I thought about all those people who signed the guestbook, since that Saloon was turned into a museum. Maybe there was a long period of time before it was turned into a museum. Some the names had dates next to them. I saw dates all the way back to the late 1950s.

Anyway.. all of this to say... maybe all the names written in that book weren't written before the saloon was built. But they were written
"from" (or since) before the place was turned into a museum.

As @KingJ says... the ESV is the one that says "before"

(ESV) and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

All the others say something like...

Revelation 13:8
(AMPC) And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.
(ASV) And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
(BSB) And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
(CSB) All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
(ESV) and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
(HCSB) All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
(KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(MKJV) And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.
(NAS77) And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
(NAS95) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
(NIrV) All who live on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life will worship the beast. The Book of Life belongs to the Lamb whose death was planned before the world was created.
(NIV) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
(NKJV) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(NLT) And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.
(NRSV) and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.
(NRSVA) and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.

 

[Curtis]

It is not unusual to believe God knows and wrote the names of all who are saved before the world was created, because if He didn't know who these people were, then sending Jesus would have been "plan B" which is not true.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God's salvation and calling us (His Church) began before the world was ever created; this was plan "A"

 

[th1bill]

I don't like lines like this as it opens the imagination to partiality by God. We need to explain that a contentious verse like that has a specific meaning and cannot be read in isolation or else it will push a narrative of God being partial.

Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

Grasping God's 'omniscience' is beyond us. Much like how He came to be.

But what we do know from scripture, what we need to add to verses like Isa 46:10 and 1 John 3:20 is the following:

1. God is as good as He is great.

He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.
He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.
It is unthinkable that He do what is wicked Job 34:12.

2. Scripture literally says He is impartial.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favouritism.
Rom 2:11 For God does not show favouritism.
1 Tim 2:4 God wills that all be saved.

And Deut 10:17, James 2:1-13, 1 Pet 1:17

3. Partiality is evil.

This is an evil a Christian must never teach. It grossly misrepresents God to the lost that He loves and died for. It is pure evil and God is not evil.

4. All babies go to heaven.

Matt 19:14 + bible study on a number of verses. In fact according to Num 14:29 an argument can be made for all under twenty.

((Babies and children will not stay indefinitely heaven. If God put the devil with Adam and Eve, He will do so with all. They will get their time. This is why most scholars believe is the purpose for millennium. It is for babies, but this is quite a bible study.))

----------------

Conclusion:

1 John 3:20 + Rom 9:21 = 5 Point Calvinism = God cherry picks people for heaven

1 John 3:20 + Rom 9:21 + Matt 19:14 + Acts 10:34 + Rom 2:11 + 1 Tim 2:4 + Psalm 145:17 = God is as good as He is great = God does not cherry pick people for heaven.

Grasping God is very difficult, near impossible for us. We need to use all scripture available on a topic to better grasp the truth.

A Christian must be terrified of misrepresenting God to the lost that He loves and died for.

Thread 'Free will'

Mar 5, 2024

It seems many do not believe in true free will and many who do, have a hard time defending it.

It is actually a very simple topic with a very simple answer and one that has irrefutable evidence.

Anti free will argument = God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. One who can create from a lump of clay a vessel unto honor or dishonor Rom 9:21. True free will is an illusion as He is omniscient (all knowing). He can't but help the fact that He is an all knowing and all powerful God. Knowing from day one who is en-route to hell and who is en-route to heaven.

Free will argument:

1. God...

• KingJ
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Bible Study

• 

It has naught to do with cherry picking. It has to do with Yehovah knowing everything forever. Before He created this Earth He knew you and I would have this learning moment.

 

[KingJ]

It has naught to do with cherry picking. It has to do with Yehovah knowing everything forever. Before He created this Earth He knew you and I would have this learning moment.

I don't disagree. It is just important for us to not incriminate Him. It is also not a case of cherry picking. His omniscience is a truth. It is fine to use a single verse for that truth. But when teaching the lost, or even some Christians like our 5 point Calvinist crowd, we need to go the extra mile in adding in scripture that paints the correct picture of God. One where He is as good as He is great / omniscient.

 

[KingJ]

It is not unusual to believe God knows and wrote the names of all who are saved before the world was created, because if He didn't know who these people were, then sending Jesus would have been "plan B" which is not true.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God's salvation and calling us (His Church) began before the world was ever created; this was plan "A"

This is not correct. It is also illogical. If God wrote only the names of true Christians before the foundations of the world in His book, there would be no need to ever blot names out. And there are a few scriptures clearly stating that He does.

Do you realize that you are making a 100% 5 point Calvinist argument?

 

[Curtis]

This is not correct. It is also illogical. If God wrote only the names of true Christians before the foundations of the world in His book, there would be no need to ever blot names out. And there are a few scriptures clearly stating that He does.

Do you realize that you are making a 100% 5 point Calvinist argument?

The book of life which names are added and removed and the Lambs book of life were name are never added or removed are not the same.

 

[Garee]

This is not correct. It is also illogical. If God wrote only the names of true Christians before the foundations of the world in His book, there would be no need to ever blot names out. And there are a few scriptures clearly stating that He does.

Do you realize that you are making a 100% 5 point Calvinist argument?

Two books.

Two, the dynamic dual used word metaphor as a biblical parable.

Christ the Holy Father not seen working in and with the Son of man, Jesus. (dying mankind) called Emanuel .

Two (Elohim) is used throughout the Bible to indicate eternal God not seen has spoken. {Law of faith)

His invisible powerful presence "Let there be" demonstrated through the "temporal" good things seen.

In that way without parables the signified understanding hid from the lying god of this world Christ spoke not.

Not a worldly nursery rhyme. But prophecy the living word that has the power to move and hide the gospel form the father of lies. not subject to the gospel

2 Corinthians 4:2-3But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.; But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In that way Christ in believers has not left his bride without the interpreting tools needed to rightly divide the parables (2 Corinthians 4:18

Biblical parables compare the temporal historical thing seen to the eternal invisible thing of the Holy Father. The lamb slain from the foundation. The six days the Holy Father did work.

The mixing of things seen with the eternal not seen I would think don't begin studying withut it

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Many confuse the promised demonstration of the bruising of the heel (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 53 ) from the actual work of God, again the six days he did work to create new incorruptible creatures, the church . . . neither male nor female. . . Jew nor Gentile
,
Two books "One", the book of life all who would be created and given the breath of life (the dying temporal seen) And "two" the Lambs book of life

Revelation 20 12-15;And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.;And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.;And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.;And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 3:5-6 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The lamb slain from the foundation will be found in both books. Those not redeemed like they never existed.

Two books, two is used in parable is the one invisible witness that God has "Let there be" spoken. Trinty a crowd

 

[joestue]

The book of life which names are added and removed and the Lambs book of life were name are never added or removed are not the same.

ok, just keep making it up as you go.

its the same book. just one more word added than what's in the old testamate referances since they didn't know who Jesus was .

 

[B-A-C]

Problems with the "two-book" theory. (All verses below from the NASB)

Exod 32:32 "But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!"
Exod 32:33 The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Deut 29:20 "The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Psa 69:27 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness.
Psa 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Luke10:20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Is there a "Book of Life" and a "Lamb's Book of Life"? It seems the only place the "Lamb's" book of life is mentioned is Rev 21:27.
However the Book of Life is mentioned in Rev 3:5, Psa 69:28, Rev 20:12, and Rev 20:15. Four times.
Twice in Exodus.. there is a just "Your book" and "My Book" (Both are God's book)

There are four verses that say your name can be blotted or erased out of these books. Two that specifically say the "Book of Life".

Luke 10:20 says some people names are recorded in heaven, but it doesn't specifically mention any books at all.
Deut 29:20 is similar. It says God will blot out some names recorded "under" heaven.

"If" there are two books, (and I'm not saying there is) it doesn't really matter that much.
Why, because your name can be erased or blotted out of both. You might say it doesn't say you can be erased from the Lamb's book of life.
I disagree. Jesus (the Lamb) is the one speaking in Rev 3:5 about erasing names from the Book of Life. It's the Lamb's book He is speaking of.

The other point here is... Some people seem to think there could be a discrepancy between the Book of Life and the Lamb's Book of Life.
Your name might be erased from one, but not the other. I seriously doubt that there are any such discrepancies. But again, it doesn't matter that much. Anyone who's name is not in the Book of Life gets thrown into the Fire (Rev 20:15)
The only people who get to come into the New Jerusalem to be with Jesus are people who's name is in The Lamb's Book of Life.

So if there were two books, and you were only in the Lamb's Book of Life. It wouldn't matter. According to Rev 20:15 if your not in "the other" book of Life.. you still get thrown into the Lake of Fire.

If you were only in "the other" Book of Life, but not the Lamb's Book of Life.. you can't enter eternity with Jesus in the New Jerusalem according to Rev 21:27.

So then... if there are two books, your name needs to be in both of them. If there's only one book, your name needs to be in it.
No advantage to OSAS in either book, names can be erased from both.

Finally, if there are two Books... The Book of Life is more important than The Lamb's Book of Life. Why do I say that?
Because according to Rev 20:15 the Book of Life is what determines whether you get thrown into the Lake of Fire or not.
The Lamb's Book of Life doesn't. So even if Jesus never erased your name from His Book of Life.. you still get thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[KingJ]

So then... if there are two books, your name needs to be in both of them. If there's only one book, your name needs to be in it.
No advantage to OSAS in either book, names can be erased from both.

Thanks for your post clarifying the matter. I agree 100% with one book. I was working on a similar one .

Just to nitpick this section from you. The fact that names can be blotted out is yet another fact that completely and utterly debunks 5 point Calvinism.

The type of OSAS belief I hold to is one where, just as God does not make a mistake blotting a name out, He does likewise not make a mistake gifting someone salvation. As such, I hold to a belief that true Christianity would cement your name in the book of life.

There is no scripture that states A. A name is written at a certain point in your life into the book of life or B. That a name that has been blotted out is re-written. As such, all scripture that states 'blotted out' clearly imply that all names are written in the book of life from birth. As we see in Rev 13:8 the KJV and NIV versions.

 

[KingJ]

The book of life which names are added and removed and the Lambs book of life were name are never added or removed are not the same.

So after a bit of research, it seems that Rev 13:8 is a contentious passage among many.

Many translations purposely change word order to push a Calvinist narrative of God predetermining whose names would and would not be written. But a correct word order reading, as is done with the same Koine Greek passage in other scriptures (Rev 5:12, Rev 17:8) shows this error. Koine Greek is widely accepted as the original language that Revelations was written in.

Good discussion here https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5624.

Revelation 13:8 Καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

''…οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν *οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐπὶ τὸ βιβλίον τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου*”''

Wycliffe:

“…whos names ben not writun in the book of lijf of the lomb, that *was slayn fro the bigynnyng of the world*.”

Tyndale:

“…whose names are not written in the boke of lyfe of the lambe which *was kylled from the begynnynge of the worlde*.”

Great Bible:

“…whose names are not written in the boke of lyfe of the lambe, which *was kylled from the begynnynge of the worlde*.”

Geneva Bible:

“…whose names are not written in the booke of life of that Lambe, which *was slaine from the beginning of the world*.”

KJV:

“…whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb *slain from the foundation of the world*.”

NIV:

“…all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb *who was slain from the creation of the world*.”

 

[Garee]

There are four verses that say your name can be blotted or erased out of these books. Two that specifically say the "Book of Life".

Luke 10:20 says some people names are recorded in heaven, but it doesn't specifically mention any books at all.
Deut 29:20 is similar. It says God will blot out some names recorded "under" heaven.

"If" there are two books, (and I'm not saying there is) it doesn't really matter that much.
Why, because your name can be erased or blotted out of both. You might say it doesn't say you can be erased from the Lamb's book of life.
I disagree. Jesus (the Lamb) is the one speaking in Rev 3:5 about erasing names from the Book of Life. It's the Lamb's book He is speaking of

Plural books (2). By the testimony of one no judgment can be made.

Numbers 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witnesshe shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

The two witness working as one .

Christ, the Holy invisible Spirit testifying of his faithful power working in the Son of man the temporal thing seen

The dynamic dual. Father and Son team. The Elohim. Emanue, Holy God working with the sons of God.

The two by two witness. . . heavenly Father

One by faith "let there be" and the witness of faith .Two its testimony of faith (the unseen things) was eternal God alone good

 

[Garee]

So after a bit of research, it seems that Rev 13:8 is a contentious passage among many.

Many translations purposely change word order to push a Calvinist narrative of God predetermining whose names would and would not be written. But a correct word order reading, as is done with the same Koine Greek passage in other scriptures (Rev 5:12, Rev 17:8) shows this error. Koine Greek is widely accepted as the original language that Revelations was written in.

Good discussion here https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5624.

Revelation 13:8 Καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

''…οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν *οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐπὶ τὸ βιβλίον τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου*”''

Wycliffe:

Tyndale:

Great Bible:

Geneva Bible:

KJV:

NIV:

I would offer. . Two books together making one witness.

The things seen giving a understanding of the invisible things of Christ, the husband.

Yes, the lamb slain from the foundation the six days the Holy Father Christ did work. Demonstrated in a three days and nights parable thousands of years later.

The lamb's book of eternal life all the names of all the born-again sons of God the new creation. The other book the book of life the names of all created the book of temporal life.

The two testimonies. Those not found in the lamb slain book will be erased from the book of life . . .therefore like they never born in the first place

 

[Curtis]

Did God call the end from the beginning? Did God love Jacob and hated Esau (noticed the Lord knows our names before birth) before they were born? Did Jesus know the names of every person that would benefit from his sacrifice before he was slain from the foundation of the world? How could Jesus know every person His Father had given him would come to him, and how could he call them all by name if he did not know their names. How could God call Jeremiah before he formed him in his mother’s womb and knew his name? How could God save and call his Church before he created the world if he did not know their names? How could Jesus claim he would never blot out any name from His book to those who over come if there was a possibility to have their name removed?

The Lambs book of life with its names of all saved people written in it before the creation of the world along with names of those not written in it were not there at one time and then removed but but were never there. They will worship the beast and its image.

 

[KingJ]

Did God call the end from the beginning?

It depends on the subject. High level, sure, that is a correct statement. But on certain items where it can be proven that foreknowledge is evil, pure evil, no, absolutely not.

1 Tim 2:4 is crystal clear on this

1 Tim 2:4 God wills all be saved.

Did God love Jacob and hated Esau (noticed the Lord knows our names before birth) before they were born?

1. Something like an event, sure, He can foreknow that. But knowing if Esau would reject Him and go to eternal hell, no.

2. God had displeasure. Not hate. The word hate is known by the actions that follow. If you hate someone, you show partiality, torture. God has not shown this to anyone in all of time. So, God has never actually 'hated' anyone. The word 'hate' has evolved from when first penned.

Did Jesus know the names of every person that would benefit from his sacrifice before he was slain from the foundation of the world?

No. Absolutely not.

How could Jesus know every person His Father had given him would come to him, and how could he call them all by name if he did not know their names.

There is no scripture teaching that.

How could God call Jeremiah before he formed him in his mother’s womb and knew his name?

He had a purpose for him. Very different matter to partiality and special selection for heaven.

How could God save and call his Church before he created the world if he did not know their names?

Neither are true.

How could Jesus claim he would never blot out any name from His book to those who over come if there was a possibility to have their name removed?

You have tunnel vision and a contradiction here. Why would God ever need to blot out a name if He has foreknowledge?

You 'have' to believe there are two books. But even on that you have to surely be able to grasp the idiocy of it. God had one book where He made no mistakes and another where He made mistakes of writing names in and removing them.

The Lambs book of life with its names of all saved people written in it before the creation of the world along with names of those not written in it were not there at one time and then removed but but were never there. They will worship the beast and its image.

How do you explain God removing names from either book?

------------------

The evidence of many scriptures points to God limiting His omniscience on certain matters in order to uphold being good Psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

 

[Curtis]

1 Tim 2:4 is crystal clear on this

1 Tim 2:4 God wills all be saved.

God willing, all to be saved does not cause all to be saved.