Does God send people to hell?
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Rhema
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You may be somewhat mistaken on this point brother.... let's start here.
For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV)The scripture means what it says.
Kind regards,
Rhema
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Eph 5:2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
1Cor 5:7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
Matt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Matt 12:7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
Jer 7:21 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh.
Jer 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jer 7:23 "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'
God would much rather have obedience than sacrifice, but because of disobedience, a sacrifice was necessary.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
1Cor 5:7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
Matt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Matt 12:7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
Jer 7:21 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh.
Jer 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jer 7:23 "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'
God would much rather have obedience than sacrifice, but because of disobedience, a sacrifice was necessary.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Yes sola scriptura does mean what it says . . do not add to it or take away from sola scriptura.
Yes, he did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. it came as a result
The atheist Jew in 1 Samuel 8 refused to reign under the invisible King of earthly kings and Lord of earthly lords .
The faithless . No faith that could please sola scriptura. They had become jealous of all the surrounding Pagan Nations. They would have nothing to do with prophecy delivered by Samual the apostle. wanted their own king to satisfy the foundation of Paganism. "Out of sight out of mind" as in, If you do not see a King then there is none. God calls them fools.
The first century reformation (Hebrew 9) came after the restoring tool sola scriptura. The living eternal word still doing its work as daily bread.
Rhema
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That doesn't address the fact that He gave no such command ever.
Rhema
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"rather have" ????
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
(Psalms 40:6 KJV)I read NOT REQUIRED, yet you say...
When is something not required, necessary? By the very definitions of the words, something required is necessary. (That's why it's required.)
But I doubt I'll receive and answer.
Best regards,
Rhema
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Dear @Question
A Covenant with God one must ask how was it made according to the OT and did Jesus fulfill it the Covenant as the sacrifice in the NT?
בְּרִית bᵉrîyth, ber-eeth'; from H1262 (in the sense of cutting [like H1254]); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh)
And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? 9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. 10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. ... 17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. Genesis 15:8-11,17 KJV
Our Brother @Rhema is correct in his looking to Jeremiah 7:22 or even Psalm 40:6, but these are not speaking of making a covenant with God but which some would say was misappropriated by the Nation of Israel for something that God did not really want. Though I wonder how he would treat Daniel 9:27 which from what we can tell was written afterwards from Jeremiah 7. Though pretty closely connected with Daniel. I found the following timeline pdf helpful.
https://biblepgs.com/Jeremiah-Daniel-Ezekiel Timeline.pdf
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
A Covenant with God one must ask how was it made according to the OT and did Jesus fulfill it the Covenant as the sacrifice in the NT?
בְּרִית bᵉrîyth, ber-eeth'; from H1262 (in the sense of cutting [like H1254]); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh)
And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? 9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. 10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. ... 17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. Genesis 15:8-11,17 KJV
Our Brother @Rhema is correct in his looking to Jeremiah 7:22 or even Psalm 40:6, but these are not speaking of making a covenant with God but which some would say was misappropriated by the Nation of Israel for something that God did not really want. Though I wonder how he would treat Daniel 9:27 which from what we can tell was written afterwards from Jeremiah 7. Though pretty closely connected with Daniel. I found the following timeline pdf helpful.
https://biblepgs.com/Jeremiah-Daniel-Ezekiel Timeline.pdf
Anyway, Brother Question. Rejoice as we all should who are in covenant with the Highest through Jesus Christ!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
Rhema
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(Daniel 9:27 KJV)
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Yet this verse does not give any indication whatsoever that God had commanded these sacrifices to begin with. (But God is long suffering and patient.)
(Jeremiah 7:25-27 NRSV)
From the day that your ancestors came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have persistently sent all my servants the prophets to them, day after day; yet they did not listen to me, or pay attention, but they stiffened their necks. They did worse than their ancestors did (cf. child sacrifice in the fire). So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you.
Indeed, the text in Daniel reads, "he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease."
Jesus did this when shutting down the sacrifices and oblations in the Temple.
Daniel continued on "he shall make it desolate," which Jesus prophesied and which happened in 70AD, because of the "overspreading of abominations."
Indeed, but what composes the covenant is not necessarily what people think.
I'm somewhat glad you brought this up.
Whether in English translations, the Hebrew texts, or the LXX, it is obvious that the narrative has been chopped up and pieces are missing. I have my suspicions about what actually happened, and the animal sacrifice cult would have definitely have omitted certain sections - those lying scribes of whom Jeremiah mentioned.
The God of Life, and the God of Resurrection certainly made something happen to these dead pieces of animals, but the text doesn't say it was offered as a sacrifice.
But that's a topic for another discussion.
Blessings,
Rhema
KingJ
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You are tiresome. How many times must your annihilationist theory of hell be debunked before you accept correction?
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It is a nice thought to have that God does not send anyone to hell. You are defending God as you correctly know and believe that He is good (Psalm 136:1).
You need to hold fast to those truths and try see the bigger picture.
Scripture teaches us that God does indeed send many to hell. An eternal hell. A place with fire, darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is an eternal separation that takes place the moment you die according to Luke 16:19-31. Just as Christians can expect to be with God in heaven the moment they die. No waiting for a 'resurrection day'. Verses that speak of dead sleeping are mistaught and misunderstood.
If Christians want to defend God on the topic of hell, they need to do so properly. Considering all of scripture and not cherry picking any.
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The truth in hell is a combination of the following four truths. Much like God gave Adam and Eve four truths about earth when they were removed from the garden of Eden.
1. Separation.
You cannot have repentant sinners with unrepentant sinners. Even today we separate criminals into prisons.
Separation anxiety causes people to weep and gnash their teeth.
Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
2. Darkness
When you place unrepentant sinners together you have a place that is a metaphorical darkness. It is not pleasant to live next to an unrepentant thief or rapist. Everyday is a type of torment.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3. Punishment by fire
Whilst 1 and 2 are certainly a type of punishment, they are not a punishment specific to a crime committed. God's chosen form of delivering punishment for sins is fire Matt 18:8, Matt 25:41, Jude 7.
The only passage in the entirety of scripture that gives a clear depiction of the exact type of suffering that one will experience in fire is from the words of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31. Jesus describes the suffering a spirit will experience. This was necessary and He knew it, as we can only grasp the suffering a body of flesh will experience in fire.
Regarding what many teach on 'God torturing the wicked with fire' - We all know how terrible fire can be. In the OT it was the worst type of capital punishment. Today we have people prolonging your suffering by placing a rubber tyre around you. We have Dante's inferno speaking of lava. It is so easy to incriminate God as evil with fire as it is so easy to assume it is a form of torture. Most Christians paint a picture akin to being placed in a brazen bull. The most evil people in all of human history would torture. Teaching that God will torture places Him atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live. It makes me so sick to read Christians misrepresent God on this. God is good, the definition of love and if you do not know this, you do not know Him 1 John 4:8.
Some key facts to note on Luke 16:19-31:
A. The rich man calls it an agonizing fire. So it is certainly not pleasant.
B. He is able to hold a thoughtful and lengthy conversation with Abraham. So clearly not akin to a brazen bull or being burnt at the stake.
C. He is not mad at God or Abraham. He is not screaming at either. Clearly he knows he deserves to be there and more importantly, he knows that the punishment is just. Torture would never be just and if he were being tortured he would be screaming and shouting profanities.
D. The rich man asks Abraham to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue. If you were on fire, like a witch that was burnt at the stake, you would ask Abraham to fetch a few bucket loads of water. Go and place your finger on a motorbike exhaust after it was ridden and let me know if all you want for the two seconds your finger engaged with extreme heat is a 'wet finger' on it. You will be screaming in pain and rush to the pharmacy for 'burn shield' or keep a running tap of cold water on it.
So we see from this that fire does not effect a spirit as harshly as it does our body / flesh. We also know from the scripture that all will be placed in the lake of fire. IE all will be punished in the same manner. This speaks to no partiality by God. That is good. We also know that God will punish according to sins committed Rom 2:6, Jer 21:14, Col 3:25.
Col 3:25 Whoever does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no partiality.
Since scripture does not mention other forms of punishment, other than fire, the only way to punish people differently would be to place them for a longer or shorter period in fire. You need a lake of fire for all eternity as people will sin and need sessions of punishment for all eternity. This is the best we can discern for now, without seeing what actually transpires. We must certainly not come with something like 'Dante's inferno' type levels of punishment just because we have scripture mentioning the wicked will be punished according to their sins.
4. Eternal Punishment
This is probably the most terrifying truth about God's justice and hell. We can understand the need to punish someone for a crime they committed. We can understand the need to separate criminals from innocent people. But eternal damnation? Impossible to grasp.
We should all be for rehabilitation, a universalist type approach to hell.
But, scripture is crystal clear that this is not the case. Scripture is clear that punishment will be eternal. The reason for this, is due to the fact that God and only God is able to judge the depths of our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-10. Something we cannot do.
It should terrify us to know that one day when God drops the hammer, His decision on where He places us for all eternity, is final.
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Sheol, Hades and Hell is more than just the grave. Jesus actually shows the rich man in torment and Lazarus in comfort after death (Luke 16:22–23). “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). Christ’s ransom only saves those who repent and believe (hence His words, “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3)). At the resurrection some will rise to life and others to damnation (John 5:28–29). To say everyone just “gets out” is to deny the clear teaching of Scripture.
