The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

[Dave M]

you are saved IMO if you are in Jesus, but look what happens if you do not Bear fruit, he takes you away, that does not sound like unconditional salvation to me does it you??

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

sounds like these folks actually were born again and chose to walk away, they were not mature enough and fell for the lying temptations of sin, that Bible warns us about over and over and over, if we have unconditional salvation why does the Bible warn us over and over about falling away, about not abiding in Christ.

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.



The word is clear with out obedience you do not have eternal life, that is the exact opposite of unconditional salvation !!

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[Curtis]

yes but salvation is never about the nation, it is a individual responsibility, we see many Jews accepted him.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;

Obviously not every single Jew will be saved, but remember Israel is made up of many people, and together they are called Israel. So, ye,s a nation can be saved.

 

[Curtis]

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Fruit is the "evidence" that a person is saved. The natural branches that were broken off are the natural Israel, but these branches never bore fruit for if they had, they would not have been broken off.

The natural branches that are connected to the vine did not do anything to get there because they are the natural branches, and because they never produced any fruit, they were broken off.

 

[Curtis]

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

When a person who claims to be a child of God yet does not have any "firm root", can not produce any fruit unto salvation, which is why they fall away.

 

[Curtis]

yes but salvation is never about the nation, it is a individual responsibility, we see many Jews accepted him.

the 7 letters to the churches Jesus wrote to, 5out of 7 got a rebuke, one he was going to vomit out of his mouth unless they repented, that does not sound like they are guaranteed salvation, one was going to be blotted out of the book of life unless they endured to the end, again that is not a comfy unconditional salvation that OSAS suggest, just my thoughts, everyone can believe what they want, just read the word and let the spirit speak. But is a dangerous place to be comfortable in your salvation IMO,

​

Acts 2:41​

So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Someone might say to Jesus, "That's easy for you to say you have overcome this world, but what about me?" Why should I be of good cheer for you?

1Jn 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Why should I be of good cheer, because Jesus' faith is our faith!! Faith only comes from Jesus, who has already overcome this world for us!!

 

[KingJ]

But this is exactly what you ARE doing. Your argument is.. God wouldn't "waste His time" letting people be saved for a little while, if He knows in advanced they aren't going to stay saved" - Of course you give no scriptural support for this, (I doubt that there is any)
But this exactly what you are saying above. God is partial to those that He knows in advanced will be saved. That is preferential predestination.

I chose person A before they are born, because I know in advance they will choose to be saved.

I don't chose person B in advance (before they are even born) because I know in advance they won't choose to be saved.

This is the definition of predestination.

No BAC. God is good. True free will is 100% real as a direct result of that fact. We are in full agreement there.

As such, from birth to the time you decide to lay your life down for Jesus, much like Matt 16:24 teaches us to, your future can be heaven or hell. 5 Point Calvinism, especially the U and L in TULIP do not teach this. (Disclaimer only on children who die between 1-19, they all go to heaven temporarily, to be tested in the millennium).

But ONCE you have decided to serve Jesus and do what is right. Repent of your sins and lay your life down for Him. God then judges your heart for sincerity and you are then grafted in and can never be kicked out. Unless of course you were not truly grafted in.

No scripture? Almost every single line I have typed in this thread has had a scripture at the end for support.

2 Cor 3:15 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?

 

[KingJ]

Paul is warning people that are in the olive tree that have been grafted in, meaning people that are in Christ, people born again, that God will remove you if you become proud, this scripture alone refutes OSAS pretty good​

Romans 11:17-22​

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

We have Jesus suggesting that if you do not conquer he will blot your name out of the book of life, If you can be blotted out of the book of life then you most certainly can loose your salvation, people are far to comfy in their salvation when the Bible teachers over and over again to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Revelation 3:5​

The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

You are reading into this verse a bit too much.

If you 'remove' your non-OSAS glasses, you will see some key words. I have highlighted them in orange and bolded them for you.

1. although a wild olive shoot,

A Christian is not a wild olive shoot.

2. share in

A Christian does not 'share in'.

3. They were broken off because of their unbelief

A Christian cannot have 'unbelief'. 1 Cor 12:3 is crystal clear on that. It is faith given Rom 12:3 that makes you a Christian Rom 10:9.

4. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

This is an interesting line. But it is cherry picked with this passage. If you read the very first verse in Rom 7 you see that the context is the 'Jews'.

Rom 7:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Now Jews were His 'natural branches'. But that is a whole separate topic for discussion. Jews from birth are not Christians.

--------------------------------

As I have said many times now in this thread. The main issue is that you guys who oppose OSAS seem to not properly grasp what exactly a Christian is. Please read the OP's here:

Thread 'So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!'

Oct 29, 2024

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of...

• KingJ
• Replies: 227
• Forum: Questions about Christianity

Thread 'What is a Christian and how do you become one?'

Nov 15, 2022

A Christian is best defined by John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A Christian is the 'whomsoever' will believe in Jesus. Now, nobody can believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is the Messiah, God of the universe Isa 9:6, without some help. The bible tells us in Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3, that a revelation from above / the Holy Spirit is necessary. It is completely impossible to believe Jesus is Lord without a revelation from the Holy Spirit 1...

• KingJ
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Bible Study

 

[KingJ]

Revelation 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

When you become a Christian you have 'conquered'. We are in fact more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

-----------------------

It is actually a funny belief you are pushing. I would love to know where and how a line is drawn in the sand on 'conquering'. One year of servitude? Two years? Fifty years? If one year for me and fifty for you, is that not partiality by God? Is partiality a good thing in your mind?

If we die in an accidental car crash, is that the time that God '''''suddenly'''''' knows who are His? Who was a 'conqueror'.

Such a funny belief and a terrible portrayal of a very good God.

 

[Dave M]

When you become a Christian you have 'conquered'.

Really that is not what the word of God says, we have victory in Jesus, but in order to conquer we must remain abide in Christ OSAS suggest we do not have to abide in Christ and we still can conquer,

I take it a personal insult and a false accusation that you I have a terrible portrayal of My Holy perfect God creator of all things, Jesus rebuke you

Revelation 2:7​

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

ut we must remain
Revelation 3:21​

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 2:26​

The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,

 

[KingJ]

Really that is not what the word of God says, we have victory in Jesus, but in order to conquer we must remain abide in Christ OSAS suggest we do not have to abide in Christ and we still can conquer,

You insert your opinion onto an OSAS believer.

An OSAS believer believes you won't but abide in Christ if you meet the criteria to become a Christian in the first place.

You, however teach that you need to work for your salvation. You teach a works based salvation. Imagine telling a friend that takes a bullet for you in the army that they are not allowed in your house unless they continue making you a cup of coffee everyday until one mysterious day you decide it is enough cups and you allow them in. Saying this of course after they see you allow another friend in after they made absolutely no cups of coffee for you Luke 23:43.

I take it a personal insult and a false accusation that you I have a terrible portrayal of My Holy perfect God creator of all things, Jesus rebuke you

I like how you say this but do not directly address the sound and logical accusations of your belief. You call God 'holy and perfect' but teach that He is evil and unjust.

Revelation 2:7​

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

ut we must remain​

Revelation 3:21​

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

​

Revelation 2:26​

The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,

You are just continuously moving the goal posts. Do you accept correction to your prior post or not?

I repeat, a Christian 'has' already conquered. I gave you a scripture that says we are in fact more then conquerors....

Rev 2:26 stands out and says something a little different to what I have already responded to .''The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,'',

There are two items to bear in mind here.

1. It is a message to a church. Rev 2 specifically is the church of Ephesus, see verse 1.

If we look at Paul's teaching, we see that he would always speak to all in attendance as though they are brothers and sisters in the Lord. His specific teaching on sin would separate Christians from 'so called Christians'. We clearly see this in 1 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 6:9-12, which I have already addressed in detail in this thread. Paul did not want any who continue unrepentant in sin to ever think they are going to heaven or to ever think they are a true Christian. They must be cast out as they were not and are not one of us. 1 Cor 5, clearly says this. Read the whole chapter. If you want to focus on specific words, read 1 Cor 5:11 and 13. We see that Jesus says exactly the same thing in Matt 7:21-23.

1 Cor 5:11-13 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister - Do not even eat with such people.

Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


2. Whilst we can accept Revelations as instructions to all no matter the period, we must grasp that Revelations was a prophetic vision given to John on the end times and a tribulation period.

During the tribulation there is no Holy Spirit 2 Thess 2:6-7. There is no Christianity! You need the Holy Spirit to be able to live by faith and believe that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is Lord. 1 Cor 12:3 is crystal clear on this.

As such, endurance will be required.

In Rev 2:10, we see that the criteria for salvation is, endurance of torment for ten days and then possibly death.

Yet, in Rom 10:9 we see that the criteria for salvation is saving faith gifted to us by the Holy Spirit.

Now, please try understand that if you decide on day three of your torment to call Jesus Lord and run from death, you will not get a crown. It is a different dispensation. There is no Holy Spirit to gift you with saving faith. There is only your devotion being tested with torment and death.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

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You are dancing Dave. Deal directly with the accusations of your belief first, before you try throw tomatoes at my belief.

I have provided sound and rational arguments for your belief incriminating God as being 1. Evil, 2. Unjust, and 3 A liar.

 

[Bill]

One can go down two paths with a non-OSAS belief. One is fine, the other is not.

OSAS = Once saved always saved.

I am an OSAS believer. The church I attend teaches non-OSAS. But they preach it in a way that does not incriminate God. After much debate and discussion with church elders, studying of scripture and meditating on the topic. The following are my thoughts. For discussion purposes I am going to try to keep it as simple and as clear as possible.

The right path - You do not attempt to 'play God'.

If someone asks you if person A or B are saved and going to heaven, you say ''I don't know''. Or you say, ''by looking at their works, I doubt it, but let's not fool ourselves, only God can judge their heart Jer 17:9-10. As for me, I work out my salvation in fear and trembling every day Phil 2:12. Knowing that even I can think I am saved and not be saved 1 Cor 10:12''.

The wrong path - You do attempt to 'play God'.

If someone asks you if person A or B are saved and going to heaven, you say ''No!, they are sinning, they have shipwrecked their salvation''. As if you ever knew whether or not they ever had salvation.

----------------------

It is as simple as that. A non-OSAS belief, when pushed by people trying to play God can so easily stumble and misrepresent God to the lost.

Taking the wrong path leads to the following heresies:

1. Jer 17:9-10 is a lie, God cannot judge the heart.
2. Num 23:19 is a lie, God is like a human who can make the mistake of grafting a Judas into heaven.
3. Deut 31:8 is a lie, God will leave and forsake you if you leave him and fall into sin.
4. Job 34:12 and 1 Cor 10:13 is a lie, God is unjust on many as He purposely sends many Christians He does not like to spaces with greater temptation of sin, in order that they may fall.
5. Rom 10:9 and John 3:16 is a lie. Just because you can call Jesus Lord and believe in your heart that He was raised from the dead does not mean you are saved.
6. You save yourself by living in a box and avoiding all temptations.
7. You must try fly on airlines that don't properly build or maintain their airplanes as the sooner you die the better your odds of making it to heaven.

There are many more I could list. But I will pause there for now and end with a warning to those that stumble the weak in Christ.

Matt 18:6 "But if anyone causes one of these little ones those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

I'm sorry but the scripture just doesn't support once saved always saved. It doesn't support the philosophy of that in any way shape or manor.

This has to do with Judas Iscariot. Don't you find it interesting that of all the apostles that Judas iscariot's full name is used repeatedly? I think that Jesus the author of the scripture purposefully did this to illustrate the fact that Judas Iscariot, his name was written in heaven. And he threw it away.

I'm sure there are many that will sit there and say that his name was not written in heaven yet the scripture is pretty clear, that is name was written in heaven in fact it was Jesus himself that says for those who came back from preaching in the towns "Rejoice that your names are written in heaven"

 

[Garee]

yes but salvation is never about the nation, it is a individual responsibility, we see many Jews accepted him.

the 7 letters to the churches Jesus wrote to, 5out of 7 got a rebuke, one he was going to vomit out of his mouth unless they repented, that does not sound like they are guaranteed salvation, one was going to be blotted out of the book of life unless they endured to the end, again that is not a comfy unconditional salvation that OSAS suggest, just my thoughts, everyone can believe what they want, just read the word and let the spirit speak. But is a dangerous place to be comfortable in your salvation IMO,

​

Acts 2:41​

So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The seven letters as if one. The metaphor seven signifies perfect or complete. The letter "one" as if seven . . . .is meant for the whole church.

What is said to one applies to the whole body of Christ whenever two or three gather under the authority of his name (sola scriptura)

To some Christ gives his faithful understanding as the labor of Christ first love "He that hath an ear" given 7 times

Deuteronomy 32 establishes the law of faith (hearing God) Therefore using all forms of H20 to indicate the Holy Spirit inspired from heaven not earthly of the devil to include sweat or spit used in parables

Christ gives his loving commandment 7 times . . . . give ear or let there be an ear that understands the invisible things of Christ

Deuteronomy 32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

A few examples of the hearing of faith (Christ's understanding) . He lovingly commands hear

Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Isaiah 28:23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.

Isaiah 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Isaiah 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

Isaiah 42:23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

Seven times "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Christ the tree of born-again life hidden from sight.

Satan, the father of the lust of the flesh and or with lust of the eye, The two building blocks of false pride. They worked through 4 words of false prophecy "neither shall you touch" giving them a desire of the flesh to see what hidden "lust of the eye".. . . then the lust of the eye took over they died then they ate the almonds the fruit of death (adding or taking away from the authority of the living word. sola scriptura)

Adam and Eve gave it over to the almond tree

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Faith (let there be power) comes by hearing. He that hath an ear.. . . . . not seeing (lust of the eye)

 

[Curtis]

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (ESV)

 

[B-A-C]

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (ESV)

No argument here. The difference is... do you only "overcome" once... or do you have to keep "overcoming" until the end?

Revelation 2:26 (KJV):

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations."

 

[B-A-C]

The "branches" broken off were not individual people, but the nation of Israel. Why were they broken off? "They were broken off because of their unbelief,....."

A straw man argument. A nation is made up of individual people. God doesn't punish individual people because of what society
chooses t do.

 

[Curtis]

No argument here. The difference is... do you only "overcome" once... or do you have to keep "overcoming" until the end?

Revelation 2:26 (KJV):

Does Jesus have keep overcoming for our salvation to be a reality, or did he overcome once for us.

Remember it is our faith (which is Jesus faith given to us as a gift) is what has overcome this world.

 

[B-A-C]

faith given to us as a gift)

Gifts can be refused, given away, destroyed, rejected, used for a while and then destroyed.
What does the fact that it is a "gift" have to do with anything?

 

[B-A-C]

Does Jesus have keep overcoming for our salvation to be a reality, or did he overcome once for us.

Really?

Luke 4:13 (NIV)​

"When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time."

This verse implies that the temptations in the wilderness were not the end of Satan’s efforts. The phrase “until an opportune time” suggests that Jesus was tempted again later in His ministry, possibly in ways not explicitly recorded.

Hebrews 4:15 (NIV)​

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin."

This verse strongly implies that Jesus experienced a wide range of temptations, not just the three in the wilderness. The phrase “tempted in every way, just as we are” suggests a comprehensive experience of human temptation.

"and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him."

Unlike Matthew and Luke, Mark doesn’t list specific temptations. Instead, he implies that the entire 40 days were filled with ongoing temptation, not just a final showdown.

But even you were right about Jesus overcoming once....

(NKJV):

Hebrews 4:3
"For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: 'So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’' although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Just because Jesus overcame, is no guarantee that you will keep overcoming.

 

[KingJ]

I'm sorry but the scripture just doesn't support once saved always saved. It doesn't support the philosophy of that in any way shape or manor.

Bill, fortunately I know you are a Catholic.

Since you believe in a Purgatory, I have only one issue with you believing non-OSAS.

Catholicism teaches that all who 'fall from grace' will get another chance to redeem themselves in Purgatory. My accusations of a non-OSAS belief in my OP fall away as a result of this. Only Catholics are exempt.

God is not unjust and evil as there is a Purgatory.

The only space I may still have an issue with you on is that it would seem you teach that 'God is a liar'.

Rom 10:9 says that we are saved if we believe Jesus is Lord and risen from the dead. This is not compatible with a works based salvation.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Is God lying to us here?

This has to do with Judas Iscariot. Don't you find it interesting that of all the apostles that Judas iscariot's full name is used repeatedly? I think that Jesus the author of the scripture purposefully did this to illustrate the fact that Judas Iscariot, his name was written in heaven. And he threw it away. I'm sure there are many that will sit there and say that his name was not written in heaven yet the scripture is pretty clear, that is name was written in heaven in fact it was Jesus himself that says for those who came back from preaching in the towns "Rejoice that your names are written in heaven"

Partially agree. All our names are in the book of life from birth. We know this because all babies and children go to heaven. Many scriptures support a temporary visit to heaven for them until the millennium.

Judas / all who reject Jesus and harden their hearts to repentance of sin, can have their names removed.

When Jesus says 'rejoice that your names are written in the book of life' Luke 10:20, He is not saying that He wrote them there. He is acknowledging that they are still there and have not been removed.

 

[B-A-C]

...until the end.​

​

Matthew 24:13 (NKJV)​

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

This is one of the clearest verses linking endurance with salvation, especially in the context of trials and end-times tribulation.

---

Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)​

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Spoken to the church in Smyrna, this verse highlights the reward for those who remain faithful even in the face of suffering or martyrdom.

---

Hebrews 10:36 (NIV)​

"You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised."

This verse connects perseverance with receiving God's promises, reinforcing the need for endurance in doing His will.

---

James 1:12 (ESV)​

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him."

A beautiful encouragement that trials are not in vain—they lead to eternal reward.

---

Galatians 6:9 (NIV)​

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

This verse encourages believers to keep doing good, even when results aren’t immediately visible.

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2 Timothy 4:7–8 (NKJV)​

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness..."

Paul’s reflection on a life of perseverance and the reward that awaits.

---

Revelation 3:21 (NIV)​

*"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on...

​