The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

[Curtis]

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

God the Father disciplines, chastises every son who belongs to him!!
If anyone who claims to be a child of God, and they are living in open sin and are not being corrected, disciplined, or even scourged by God then they are not a child of God!!!

Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
Even our earthly fathers corrected us when we did wrong and that for their own pleasure, but God corrects us for our own good so we might share in his holiness!!
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

How can a child of God know they belong to God?

Are you ever corrected, chastised when you do wrong? How is your conscience when you sin? The Apostle Paul said......

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

 

[Curtis]

The Lord has a 100% success rate in his discipline.

 

[B-A-C]

The Lord has a 100% success rate in his discipline.

Is there scripture for this?

Jeremiah 5:3 (NASB95)​

“O Lord, do not Your eyes look for truth? You have smitten them, but they did not weaken; You have consumed them, but they refused to take correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; they have refused to repent.”

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Isaiah 1:5 (NASB95)​

“Where will you be stricken again, As you continue in your rebellion? The whole head is sick And the whole heart is faint.”

This verse shows God's lament over Israel's continued rebellion despite suffering.

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Amos 4:6–11 (NASB95)​

This passage repeats the phrase:

“Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.

For example, verse 6:

“But I gave you also cleanness of teeth in all your cities And lack of bread in all your places, Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord.

This pattern continues through verse 11, showing repeated discipline and persistent disobedience.

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Proverbs 29:1 (NASB95)​

“A man who hardens his neck after much reproof Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy.”

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Revelation 9:20–21 (NASB95)​

“The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands... and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.”

Revelation 2:20–21 (NASB95)​

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”

 

[B-A-C]

A. God is good Psalm 136:1

I don't doubt God is good. I doubt your definition of good.

 

[Curtis]

Is there scripture for this?

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

 

[B-A-C]

10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand

No one can take them from Jesus if they don't want to leave. But they are free to leave on their own at any time.

Also while no can take them Jesus, He himself will have some cast out.

But none of these verses mention discipline.

 

[Curtis]

Jeremiah 5:3 (NASB95)​

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Jer 5:1 Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, look and take note! Search her squares to see if you can find a man, one who does justice and seeks truth, that I may pardon her.
Jer 5:2 Though they say, “As the LORD lives,” yet they swear falsely.
Jer 5:3 O LORD, do not your eyes look for truth? You have struck them down, but they felt no anguish; you have consumed them, but they refused to take correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; they have refused to repent.
Jer 5:4 Then I said, “These are only the poor; they have no sense; for they do not know the way of the LORD, the justice of their God

How many people, not only in the Old Testament, but also in many Churchs today who act like real children of God but are not. They are not looking for the truth. They hear the truth but refuse to obey or do it. These people will never accept correction; in fact, they will hate you if you do try and correct them. These are not children of God.

Eze 33:31 And they come to you as people come, and they sit before you as my people, and they hear what you say but they will not do it; for with lustful talk in their mouths they act; their heart is set on their gain.
Eze 33:32 And behold, you are to them like one who sings lustful songs with a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument, for they hear what you say, but they will not do it.

 

[Curtis]

No one can take them from Jesus if they don't want to leave. But they are free to leave on their own at any time.

Also while no can take them Jesus, He himself will have some cast out.

But none of these verses mention discipline.

Jesus will only cast out those who are not his.

 

[Curtis]

Revelation 2:20–21 (NASB95)

Rev 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality.

What do you think the end will be for false teachers who claim to be something when they are nothing?

 

[Curtis]

God has a 100% success rate with His sons.

 

[KingJ]

I don't doubt God is good. I doubt your definition of good.

C'mon, I gave you a solid reply and this is your response / rebuttal?

I gave you sound and logical reasons for a non-OSAS belief incriminating God. Why not take a stab at those specific points raised?

 

[Dave M]

Paul is warning people that are in the olive tree that have been grafted in, meaning people that are in Christ, people born again, that God will remove you if you become proud, this scripture alone refutes OSAS pretty good​

Romans 11:17-22​

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

We have Jesus suggesting that if you do not conquer he will blot your name out of the book of life, If you can be blotted out of the book of life then you most certainly can loose your salvation, people are far to comfy in their salvation when the Bible teachers over and over again to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Revelation 3:5​

The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

 

[B-A-C]

this scripture alone refutes OSAS pretty good

This is the issue I have, they never try to argue any scriptures that refute it. They want to change the subject.

For example, the argument seems to be... OSAS must be true... because God is good.

What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China? One is not related to the other.

What do you think the end will be for false teachers who claim to be something when they are nothing?

I think we agree on that, but disagree on who the false teachers are.

Rev 2
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than [j]at first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with [m]pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 24 But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them—I place no other burden on you. 25 Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. 26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

This isn't written to non-believers. It's written to the church. It's written to people with "love ..and faith ...and service"
But even though these people belong to Jesus. Someone is leading His bond-servants astray (those who belong to Him).
He is telling the rest of the church to "hold fast" and to "overcome".

God gave this person "time to repent"... why would He give them the chance to repent, if they were unable to repent?
But they don't want to repent.

 

[B-A-C]

1. When you apply the U (unconditional election) and L (limited atonement) in TULIP, you incriminate God as this suggests He is partial in that He has preselected people for salvation. God is not partial Acts 10:34. Partiality is pure evil. The same evil behind racism. All 5 point Calvinists completely and utterly misrepresent God to the lost.

But this is exactly what you ARE doing. Your argument is.. God wouldn't "waste His time" letting people be saved for a little while, if He knows in advanced they aren't going to stay saved" - Of course you give no scriptural support for this, (I doubt that there is any)
But this exactly what you are saying above. God is partial to those that He knows in advanced will be saved. That is preferential predestination.

I chose person A before they are born, because I know in advance they will choose to be saved.

I don't chose person B in advance (before they are even born) because I know in advance they won't choose to be saved.

This is the definition of predestination.

 

[Curtis]

They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

The "branches" broken off were not individual people, but the nation of Israel. Why were they broken off? "They were broken off because of their unbelief,....."

How can you make this about OSAS? Don't you have to believe first and then NOT believe? The Jews never believed in Jesus as their saviour!

It should be called never believed, never saved.

The other people being spoken to were not individual people but the nation of Gentiles. If they also do not believe will also be broken off.

 

[Curtis]

God gave this person "time to repent"...

God is giving the entire ungodly world time to repent.

 

[Dave M]

The "branches" broken off were not individual people, but the nation of Israel. Why were they broken off? "They were broken off because of their unbelief,....."

How can you make this about OSAS? Don't you have to believe first and then NOT believe? The Jews never believed in Jesus as their saviour!

It should be called never believed, never saved

, the whole nation of Israel was not broken off, all the apostles were part of that nation, they day of Pentecost how many thousand Jews were saved no gentiles ? NO that is NOT about the nation Israel, that is about individuals, it says some of the branches were broken off, key word being some. This is a direct warning from Paul to believers not to get prideful in there salvation or God will brake you off from Jesus.

 

[Curtis]

, the whole nation of Israel was not broken off, all the apostles were part of that nation, they day of Pentecost how many thousand Jews were saved no gentiles ? NO that is NOT about the nation Israel, that is about individuals, it says some of the branches were broken off, key word being some. This is a direct warning from Paul to believers not to get prideful in there salvation or God will brake you off from Jesus.

Not only did the nation of Israel reject Jesus as their Messiah, but they also reject him to this very day. Are there some Jews who believed in him? Yes, but the vast majority did not.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 

[Garee]

The Lord has a 100% success rate in his discipline.

Yes his word sent out does not return void .

The "Let there be" and "it was good".

 

[Dave M]

Not only did the nation of Israel reject Jesus as their Messiah, but they also reject him to this very day. Are there some Jews who believed in him? Yes, but the vast majority did not.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

yes but salvation is never about the nation, it is a individual responsibility, we see many Jews accepted him.

the 7 letters to the churches Jesus wrote to, 5out of 7 got a rebuke, one he was going to vomit out of his mouth unless they repented, that does not sound like they are guaranteed salvation, one was going to be blotted out of the book of life unless they endured to the end, again that is not a comfy unconditional salvation that OSAS suggest, just my thoughts, everyone can believe what they want, just read the word and let the spirit speak. But is a dangerous place to be comfortable in your salvation IMO,

Acts 2:41​

So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.