No Human has Gone to Heaven but Jesus!

[Garee]

As it does me, those who think a parable is literal history, science and physics.

God bless,
Rhema

LOL Who could imagine that??The idea that God hides the spiritual understanding from the non-redeemed.

Not a salvation issue. Can't change the simplicity of the gospel. Christ's Holy Spirit of adoption is poured out on dying mankind

Close but no blue ribbon. You get the bobby prize (gospel of faithless Thomas)

Without parables the signified understanding of prophecy as a sign to the un-redeemed world the temporal historical, dying. . It.must be mixed with the unseen eternal things of Christ. No mixing no gospel rest.

2 Corinthians 4:18;While we look not at the things which are seen,(historical) but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

In that way we are not left as orphans without valuable interpretation instructions. Hid from the world so that we can seek his invisible approval

I believe the first law of any Bible study. The kind that gives us rest from our own work. Yoked with him our daily burden can be light with a future living hope beyond what the eyes see the temporal historical.

Hebrews 4Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Why do you think he hides the gospel understanding from the non-redeemed?

 

[Christ4Ever]

The word hell represents the suffering we suffer in these earthen bodies of death. Death the one appointment all makes on time.

It was demonstrated in two parables working as one . Jonas three days and night compared to the companion the Son of man Jesus three days and nights the suffering . . .not dead. . . by his wounds we are healed of an eternal debt

Not dead (unto death) but a living sacrifice called "belly of the whale" or in the same way "heart of the heart of earth" Like the blood of Abel crying out from corrupted dying suffering earth crying for a new body neither male nor female Jew nor gentile the wife of Christ the faithful creator

Leave the digging up dead bones to the unbelieving evolutionist or Roman Catholic like when they dug up Pope Formoso the tenth. century. Dresed then bones up with a little Colone. Judged those dead bones and sent them around the circuit to be venerated. Therefore, revealing their pagan, reincarnation religious belief. . (Out of sight out of mind) God calls fools .

Believe God, not dying men seen

Dear Garee,
Did you notice that I shared the YouTube video link, for the sake of a Brother in Christ who had only the Facebook link available to share?
This was not to say, I was looking to get involved in the discussion. Thanks for trying anyway.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Garee]

Dear Garee,
Did you notice that I shared the YouTube video link, for the sake of a Brother in Christ who had only the Facebook link available to share?
This was not to say, I was looking to get involved in the discussion. Thanks for trying anyway.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

He sounded clueless Sorry.

 

[Dave M]

The only passage I can see that supports this is...

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Now notice... verses 9 and 10 are in parenthesis, meaning they weren't in the original texts. I myself wouldn't build a doctrine on those verses.

I would contrast this with several verses that say we will rise on the "last day".

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Also...

Acts 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

I would say this verse was written after Jesus ascended.

Yes that was the verse I thinking of thanks for finding it.

Rise on the last day is most certainly biblical, I see that as referring to our glorified bodies, if our citizenship is in heaven, it seems that is wear we will return to await for our glorified bodies, this is speculation on my part.

Philippians 3:20-2-----But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.​

But the speculation does come with much scripture to support. we have Jesus telling us that there is many dwelling places in his father house, and that he is preparing a place for us. I would again have to speculate his father house is in heaven. A case could easily be made that he is promising to come at the death of these people is speaking directly to and bring them to heaven, I would assume it is there spirit, soul he is speaking of. But it sure looks like he telling them and all believers in my eyes that there is a place in heaven for our souls/ spirit, when we die and wait for the resurrection.

John 14:2-3------In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.​

we even see in revelation the souls of them who have died for Jesus The martyrs under the throne of God, they seem to have awareness of what is going on. down on earth

Revelation 6:9-----When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.​

Then we have the famous verse to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, we know these bodies we live in our temporary earthly bodies, that will perish and are cursed, they are certainly not going to heaven, but we also know we have a spirit a soul these I do believe God brings to heaven when out earthly body dies, for Paul states this pretty plainly.

2 Corinthians 5:1-21-----For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. ...​

Pretty sure at home with the lord is in heaven

2 Corinthians 5:8-----Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.​

Ray are suggesting soul sleep???

 

[B-A-C]

Pretty sure at home with the lord is in heaven

I agree with every verse you posted here. The question is timing.

I believe our citizenship is in heaven. But I work with people in the US who's citizenship is in other countries.
I myself lived in Japan for a while, even though my citizenship was in the US.

I believe the Father's house (which I really believe to be the New Jerusalem) has many rooms and we will live there.
The question is... when.

1Corinthians 5 could be talking about a dwelling place (house) or it could be talking about clothing. I'm not sure.
Again.. the question is... when does this happen?

Where does it say the Altar in Rev 6:9 is in heaven?

2Cor 5:8 is a tricky one, but again... when does this happen? Immediately after death?

I will return your questions, with a few questions of my own.

Lazarus - John 11:1–44

Jairus' daughter - Mark 5:21–43, Matthew 9:18–26, Luke 8:40–56

The widows son at Nain - Luke 7:11–17

Tabitha (Dorcas) - Acts 9:36–42

Eutychus - Acts 20:7–12

Do you believe these people went to heaven for a short while and then returned back to earth?
Why didn't any of them mention it? Why didn't they tell us what heaven was like?
Even if we exclude the first 3 examples here, the last two happened after Jesus ascended.

The resurrection of the dead Saints - Matthew 27:51–53

How long were these people dead before they rose up? Did they come back from heaven? Did they die again later?
What about Lazarus? Did he die again later?

What do you believe?
Is there such a thing as a "temporary" resurrection?

 

[B-A-C]

Do we ever "live" in heaven? I'm not denying some people may have been there. (Enoch, Elijah, Paul)

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Rev 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Heb 11:10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
Heb 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
Heb 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Yes, we will always be with the Lord... where? It seems this won't be in heaven, it'll be in the New Jerusalem.

 

[B-A-C]

The verse about the saints under the altar in Rev 9 has me wondering...

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man.... how literal do we take this?
I mean I believe it happened. But...

Were Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man walking around in some cave beneath the surface of the earth even though they were all dead?
Or were they dead in their graves, and this was more of a meta-spiritual conversation? To tell the truth I don't know, but tend to lean towards the second one.

In the same way... were the martyred saints in heaven, physically under a real altar, or is this more of a metaphoric symbolism?

 

[Dave M]

I believe the Father's house (which I really believe to be the New Jerusalem) has many rooms and we will live there.
The question is... when.

never thought of that, excellent consideration for sure !

Where does it say the Altar in Rev 6:9 is in heaven?

Yes more speculation on my part, I certainly can not think of another place the altar of God where the souls would be, especially since the previous chapters are talking about John is in heaven in spirit.

Do you believe these people went to heaven for a short while and then returned back to earth?
Why didn't any of them mention it? Why didn't they tell us what heaven was like?
Even if we exclude the first 3 examples here, the last two happened after Jesus ascended.

Great question one I have often pondered, not sure.

What do you believe?
Is there such a thing as a "temporary" resurrection?

I believe God can do anything he wants, he brought those people back for a reason to show his Glory ! wear did the go when they died, it does not say. Paul did say when he went to heaven some things are forbidden to speak about.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man.... how literal do we take this?
I mean I believe it happened. But...

I agree it I take it literal, but think it was a holding place until Jesus paid the price for sin. But I really do not know 100%

In the same way... were the martyred saints in heaven, physically under a real altar, or is this more of a metaphoric symbolism?

Yes there is a lot of that in revelation for sure,

I do think heaven would be only a temporary place until we are resurrected and live on the new earth.

 

[B-A-C]

Paul did say when he went to heaven some things are forbidden to speak about.

Just another thought here. Paul, like Enoch and Elijah... wasn't dead when he went to heaven.
So then... did any "dead" people ever go to heaven? (Jesus excepted, but He isn't dead now).

 

[Kermos]

Acts 2:34 KJV 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,'

So if David had not ascended into heaven by the date of 33 AD after dying about 1000 years previously - 'King David of Israel reigned from around 1010–970 BCE. He was the second king of Israel, succeeding King Saul' - where was or is he today?
And if he had not ascendd then why do so many 'Christians' claim the dad fly off to heaven?

Also when Jesus died the earthquake broke open the tombs and some saints walked about the village. Who believes the dead were resurrected that day? who could those saints have been - local believers killed for preaching the Gospel?

The supposed tomb containing the bones of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Cave of Machpelah with the variously modified building above it but it is 19 miles from Jerusalem so they were unlikely to be the ones in Jerusalem?
Good old Wikipedia ever ready to worship Satan claims: 'most historians believe the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob narrative to be primarily mythological.'

Lord and God Jesus Christ lovingly brings every Christian permanently into His abode after the Christian's death on Earth for the Christ of us Christians says "In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:2-3)!

Do not be deceived, Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul wrote "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago— whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows— such a man was caught up to the third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2), so this dispells your premise and thead title of "No Human has Gone to Heaven but Jesus!".

And, this Holy Scripture puts Elijah in heaven "It happened, as they still went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11)

 

[Rhema]

What about Lazarus? Did he die again later?

Peter wondered about that as well..

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?​

- John 21:21-23 KJV

But I don't think Jesus ever answered the question.

Agape,
Rhema

Is there such a thing as a "temporary" resurrection?

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

- Matthew 27:51-53 KJV

I don't think these people are still wandering around.

(And the fellow who I raised from the dead a decade ago just died last year.)

 

[Christ4Ever]

Just another thought here. Paul, like Enoch and Elijah... wasn't dead when he went to heaven.
So then... did any "dead" people ever go to heaven? (Jesus excepted, but He isn't dead now).

To consider would be those that Jesus, or anyone else has risen from death/sleep back to life. Would it be considered a resurrection of sorts, or even those on the Mount of Transfiguration as having died but being still being alive? If so, where do they now reside? So, do we mean a different type of resurrection, as being a final one, verses one where one comes back to an earthly life, similar to one to the fellow that Brother @Rhema talked about. What of them? I wonder if Brother Rhema asked the individual where he was during the time he was dead/asleep or if he recalls anything or nothing at all.

We know there is a resurrection of life, and another resurrection to judgment. Now Daniel might have communicated it a bit differently, but I take it with the same meaning when he spoke of those who sleep rising again to everlasting life, and others to everlasting contempt. Yet, it still does not speak of those who were risen from the dead in the OT, and where they might have been.

Sorry Brother. I didn't mean to intrude, but since you seemed to be a bit of the lead on this, I'd inquire of you.

God bless you and yours.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Bill]

If you're paying. Sure.

But I don't doubt.

The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even their memory is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun.​

(Ecclesiastes 9:5-6)

God is not the God of the dead. Now if the dead were alive somewhere, then God would be the God of the dead.

With God's help, one day you'll get it.

Rhema

Oh wait, you think you're one of those two prophets, is that it? How come I've met more than three of these online so far? (Do let me know if I'm mistaken.)

You're absolutely correct that God is not the god of the dead but the God of the living.

And even though a person dies in this world it's only the physical shell of that person, the Temple of the Holy Spirit is what dies not the person. The person remains alive. The person always remains alive it's just there's a difference because when you're with God you're really alive, your spirit is alive your heart is alive your whole self is alive. But when a person goes to hell even though they are existing they're not alive anymore their hearts are dead their spirit is pretty well dead they are just existing

 

[Bill]

What of the thief on the cross?
Jesus stated, today you will be with me in Paradise.

 

[B-A-C]

What of the thief on the cross?
Jesus stated, today you will be with me in Paradise.

Lazarus went to paradise... but most scholars don't consider that to be heaven.
Also was the thief under the old covenant? Jesus hadn't ascended yet when the thief died.
He told Mary Magdelene he wasn't yet glorified, after after He was resurrected.

 

[B-A-C]

Peter wondered about that as well..

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?- John 21:21-23 KJV

We've had this discussion before. But every single Bibe scholar I know... says this is about John, not Lazarus.
a.k.a one of the sons of Zebedee. a.k.a John of Patmos.

 

[B-A-C]

A lot of the discussion around this, could go back to...

The quote "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body" is often attributed to C.S. Lewis, but it's not actually something he wrote. According to online resources and literary analysis, the quote is more closely associated with George MacDonald. It appears in his work "Annals of a Quiet Neighbourhood". The sentiment, however, does resonate with some of Lewis's writings, particularly his view of the soul as distinct from the body. Spurgeon also mentioned this several times.

So then the question becomes... what is resurrected.. on the last day? Just the body? Just the soul? Neither? Both?
According to 1Cor 15... we will get new spiritual, bodies. If this is so... why do we need our old bodies that return to the dust?

 

[Dave M]

Lazarus went to paradise... but most scholars don't consider that to be heaven.

I agree,

but Paul also went to paradise and it is clear that was heaven, so depending on the context or the time paradise seems to have a couple of possible meanings in the bible.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4​

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

 

[Garee]

Peter wondered about that as well..

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?​

- John 21:21-23 KJV

But I don't think Jesus ever answered the question.

Agape,
Rhema

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

- Matthew 27:51-53 KJV

I don't think these people are still wandering around.

(And the fellow who I raised from the dead a decade ago just died last year.)

Yes, Peter had no understanding of the parable He went to town and started another lying prophecy. Like the gospel of faithless Thomas. Or book of Enoch 10 words of prophecy found in the prophecy of Jude.

Jesus said if every time he exposed false prophecy that attempts to make sola scriptura without effect. would need a bigger planet to hold the volumes that could have been written.

You would thing the first time Peter blasphemed the Son of Man Jesus (Mathew16) would have been enough of a lesson for Peter the slow learner

LOL Fellow raised from the dead . . .you after hitting the snooze 19 times ?

As far as the Lazarus' parable at the end of a series of parables beginning in previous chapter. The parable "no man can serve two good teaching masters"

Using Mammon to represent the wisdom of this dark would and sola scriptura all things written in the law and prophets or Moses as the law give and the prophets. . Law and Prophets the testimony of two revealing that one God has spoken his loving law.

Three times with three denoting the end of a matter

Remember. . that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Note. . .RED . . . sola scriptura or all things written in the law and or with the prophet


Luke 15;13-31;No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God (sola scriptura) and mammon.(wisdom of this world) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: fornbsp;The law and the prophets (Sola scriptura) were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.;And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law (sola scriptura) to fail.;Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adulteryThere was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:;And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,;And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.;And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;;And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.;And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.;And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.;Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:;For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.;Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets;(Sola scriptura) let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.;And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,(Sola scriptura) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.(see things with their own eyes and refuse to believe )

 

[Gothedral]

Even the so-called atheists of pop-culture preach Hell. Heaven is true, because Christ is The Truth, The Way, and The Life.
Hell is punishment for liars. Choose Christ as your Redeemer.
Everything else that can possibly happen in mortality matters nothing when you know Christ and your people are waiting in Heaven for you.
Amen.