A Question for the Biblically Orthodox

[Dylan569]

When I say “Biblically Orthodox”, I of course mean those of us who are Calvinists. The Arminian therefore cannot legitimately address the question that I am going to ask.

The Bible is clear that being ‘born again’, ‘born anew’ or ‘born from above’ is not brought about by a person believing, he believes because he has been, previously, born from above by God. Jn 1:12-13; Acts 16:14; Eph. 2:1-10; Phil. 2:12-13. This is what the Calvinist believes because that is what the Scriptures clearly indicate.

Can a person be born again, in a regenerate state, and not be justified? If so, does that not indicate that faith is just as much evidence of being justified as well as evidence of being born again?

Jesus our Lord: “who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.” (Rom 4:25, YLT)

From the Cambridge Bible:
for our offences] Lit. because of our offences; “because we had offended.” Such is the natural meaning of the Gr. The fact of our sins demanded, for their just remission, nothing less than the Lord’s Death.

for our justification] Lit. because of our Justification. The construction is identical. This, and the balance of the clauses, seem to demand the exposition: “He was raised, because our justification was effected;” not, “in order to give us justification,” as many interpret it. The parallel is complete: “We sinned, therefore He suffered: we were justified, therefore He rose.”

The 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith on Justification reads:
“XXVIII.
Those that have union with Christ, are justified from all their sins by the blood of Christ, which justification is a gracious and full acquittance of a guilty sinner from all sin, by God, through the satisfaction that Christ hath made by His death for all their sins, and this applied (in manifestation of it) through faith.”

This is why I embrace the 1644/1646 Confession rather than the 1689 Baptist Confession, which follows the Westminster Confession on this point.

 

[Garee]

When I say “Biblically Orthodox”, I of course mean those of us who are Calvinists. The Arminian therefore cannot legitimately address the question that I am going to ask.

The Bible is clear that being ‘born again’, ‘born anew’ or ‘born from above’ is not brought about by a person believing, he believes because he has been, previously, born from above by God. Jn 1:12-13; Acts 16:14; Eph. 2:1-10; Phil. 2:12-13. This is what the Calvinist believes because that is what the Scriptures clearly indicate.

Can a person be born again, in a regenerate state, and not be justified? If so, does that not indicate that faith is just as much evidence of being justified as well as evidence of being born again?

Jesus our Lord: “who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.” (Rom 4:25, YLT)

From the Cambridge Bible:
for our offences] Lit. because of our offences; “because we had offended.” Such is the natural meaning of the Gr. The fact of our sins demanded, for their just remission, nothing less than the Lord’s Death.

for our justification] Lit. because of our Justification. The construction is identical. This, and the balance of the clauses, seem to demand the exposition: “He was raised, because our justification was effected;” not, “in order to give us justification,” as many interpret it. The parallel is complete: “We sinned, therefore He suffered: we were justified, therefore He rose.”

The 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith on Justification reads:
“XXVIII.
Those that have union with Christ, are justified from all their sins by the blood of Christ, which justification is a gracious and full acquittance of a guilty sinner from all sin, by God, through the satisfaction that Christ hath made by His death for all their sins, and this applied (in manifestation of it) through faith.”

This is why I embrace the 1644/1646 Confession rather than the 1689 Baptist Confession, which follows the Westminster Confession on this point.

I would offer the words “Biblically Orthodox” It must be defined.

Orthodox It would seem to support the confederacy, those of the number, the racist, those that lean to the left The Civil War

Isaiah 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Obadiah 1:7All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.

They compare themselves. "Things seen" to themselves "Thing seen" and do not compare their thoughts to the living word of God, the unseen spiritual gospel.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

I would offer From a Amil position "signified" using a sign the temporal things seen to give the hidden gospel understnding .Called hidden manna in chapter 2:14 of Revelation

In that way without parables the "signified" understanding of Christ He spoke not

Revelation 11 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:;Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. . . .(signified)

If the metaphor thousand years used in parables 3 different times. . 2 in the old 1 in the new .

The metaphor thousand years most certainly does not become literal in the book with the most parables.

No sign were given. Signs are designed for the unbeliever's, prophecy as parables for those born again from above

Remember today Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder, marvel after as if true prophecy is working overtime many false apostles sent with false prophecy (oral tradition of dying mankind.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[Dylan569]

I would offer the words “Biblically Orthodox” It must be defined.

Orthodox It would seem to support the confederacy, those of the number, the racist, those that lean to the left The Civil War

Isaiah 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Obadiah 1:7All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.

They compare themselves. "Things seen" to themselves "Thing seen" and do not compare their thoughts to the living word of God, the unseen spiritual gospel.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

I would offer From a Amil position "signified" using a sign the temporal things seen to give the hidden gospel understnding .Called hidden manna in chapter 2:14 of Revelation

In that way without parables the "signified" understanding of Christ He spoke not

Revelation 11 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:;Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. . . .(signified)

If the metaphor thousand years used in parables 3 different times. . 2 in the old 1 in the new .

The metaphor thousand years most certainly does not become literal in the book with the most parables.

No sign were given. Signs are designed for the unbeliever's, prophecy as parables for those born again from above

Remember today Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder, marvel after as if true prophecy is working overtime many false apostles sent with false prophecy (oral tradition of dying mankind.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Maybe others can figure out how your reply has anything to do with my OP, but I cannot see it. How the Civil War and the assumed racism came into this thread escapes me.

 

[Garee]

Maybe others can figure out how your reply has anything to do with my OP, but I cannot see it. How the Civil War and the assumed racism came into this thread escapes me.

I was using that to represent the orthodox the confederacy. Those of the number or majority. Democrats, not the Republican of the Republic constitution law

Racism supported by the confederacy slave owner. Under the reincarnation transmigration (re enter dying flesh) false doctrine. Migration from one body form to another. Like Women tampons of little boys bathroom. . Those saying the resurrection has come again, again and again (reincarnation)

 

[B-A-C]

When I say “Biblically Orthodox”, I of course mean those of us who are Calvinists. The Arminian therefore cannot legitimately address the question that I am going to ask.

While I'm definitely not Calvinist. I agree with this statement, as Calvinist's generally accept tradition over scripture.

 

[Garee]

While I'm definitely not Calvinist. I agree with this statement, as Calvinist's generally accept tradition over scripture.

I would think the other way around.

Calvinist generally accept that without parables the signified prophecy Christ spoke not.

The literalist looks to the oral traditions.

To them a thousand years in the parable (Revelation 20) is a literal thousand.

 

[Dylan569]

While I'm definitely not Calvinist. I agree with this statement, as Calvinist's generally accept tradition over scripture.

BAC, I disagree with your statement that Calvinists generally accept tradition over scripture. One of the first reasons I gave a close look at the First London Confession of Baptists 1644/1646 was that the statements in the Confession was pretty much lifted from the scriptures themselves. Calvinists are the only ones I know who adhere to Paul's instruction:

“Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.” (1Cor 4:6, ASV)

One key point is that of “free will”, which Calvinists and Lutherans reject as being contrary to scripture. Those who reject the idea of bondage of the will, can only do so by adding their humanistic reasoning in opposition to the express statements of scripture. Martin Luther's “Bondage of the Will” was in answer to the Roman Catholic Erasmus's belief in a free will. It is sad how so many fundamentalist/evangelicals, who love to bash the Roman Catholic Church, hold the same exact belief in “free will”. Reading Martin Luther's arguments, you see him answering the same points made by evangelicals today. TrueCovenanter.com: The Bondage of the Will

It is not easy reading, but well worth the effort!

 

[Leumas]

This is why I embrace the 1644/1646 Confession rather than the 1689 Baptist Confession, which follows the Westminster Confession on this point.

I would suggest
That you forsake
All this nonsense
And embrace
The doctrine of Christ.
Because otherwise
You're not going to make it.

 

[Garee]

BAC, I disagree with your statement that Calvinists generally accept tradition over scripture. One of the first reasons I gave a close look at the First London Confession of Baptists 1644/1646 was that the statements in the Confession was pretty much lifted from the scriptures themselves. Calvinists are the only ones I know who adhere to Paul's instruction:

Calvins follow the given directions of the parables the signified understanding. Using the temporal historical as a sign the must be mixed with the eternal things of faith the invisible things of Chrit the Holy Father.. . yoked with Christians he can make our daily burden lighter

Revelation 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel message unto his servant John the messenger apostle:

The signified called hidden Manna in Rev 2:17

Calvinist (Amil no literal thousand years as a sign) not those that accept oral tradition of dying mankind that they must seek after signs before they believe (exercise faith)

No signs were given to wonder after .as if it was true prophecy jesu said it is a evil genration that does sejk after a sign rather than prophecy (sola scriptura)

Today the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, marvel after as if it was true prophecy and God was still adding to the perfect ..

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The Pharisees with Sadducees two sign and wonder seekers tried to make Jesus into a circus seal. . do some magic work a miracle then when we see with our own eyes then we will believe for a half a second.

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 

[B-A-C]

The literalist looks to the oral traditions.

Do you know what the word literal means?

If I ask... "are you literate", what is that asking?

 

[Dylan569]

Calvins follow the given directions of the parables the signified understanding. Using the temporal historical as a sign the must be mixed with the eternal things of faith the invisible things of Chrit the Holy Father.. . yoked with Christians he can make our daily burden lighter

Revelation 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel message unto his servant John the messenger apostle:

The signified called hidden Manna in Rev 2:17

Calvinist (Amil no literal thousand years as a sign) not those that accept oral tradition of dying mankind that they must seek after signs before they believe (exercise faith)

No signs were given to wonder after .as if it was true prophecy jesu said it is a evil genration that does sejk after a sign rather than prophecy (sola scriptura)

Today the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, marvel after as if it was true prophecy and God was still adding to the perfect ..

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The Pharisees with Sadducees two sign and wonder seekers tried to make Jesus into a circus seal. . do some magic work a miracle then when we see with our own eyes then we will believe for a half a second.

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

I've noticed that Rhema is such a self-proclaimed scholar that he rejects the translations by the recognized translations such as the KJV, RV, RVS, etc. Also, sadly, Garee, I have absolutely no idea what your posts are intended to convey. I so not see it is always profitable to respond to their gibberish. I actually wonder if some posters, such as these, actually have any grasp of the faith once delivered to the saints. People in this world live in the mess of a fallen creation, so they better seek real biblical answers, not the silly nonsense seen too often in this sort of forum.
The topic about slavery and racism shows such ignorance of the Bible! Was the Apostle Paul racist when he wrote;

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; (Titus 1:12-13, KJV)

Is there one verse anywhere in the Bible that condemns slavery as such? NO! In Philemon, Paul had a chance to condemn slavery, he did not. In Philemon, you do not read of Paul posing questions of how or why the slavery was not condemned. Did Paul worry whether the slave had been kidnapped? This is where you read humanists reading into their Bible their humanist traditions.

 

[Rhema]

I've noticed that Rhema is such a self-proclaimed scholar

Were you being rude on purpose to omit the @ sign that would notify me of your mention? Or did you want to just slander me in the shadows as a coward would? (C'mon, convince me it was a mere typo.)

I've noticed that Rhema is such a self-proclaimed scholar

My CV? Course work at Moravian Seminary and Princeton Theological.

Now... how are you not a self-proclaimed scholar? Fess up. You wish to cast aspersions on others, at least have the guts to announce your wonderful pedigree. We all await with bated breath in anticipation.

he rejects the translations by the recognized translations such as the KJV, RV, RVS,

As would anyone with enough education to be competent in the Koine Greek dialect. You drop this word "recognized" as if that automatically confers divine accuracy when for the most part all these translations you've noted were created by an agenda of the denomination that paid for them.

It's the stupid assumption that truth is established by the majority, when in fact, translators are timid creatures that are all too willing to go along with the crowed and not rock to boat to challenge their professors lest they lose their job. How do you think I've learned the tactics of my belligerence? I am no respecter of persons, which means anyone flouting around highfalutin' degrees and letters and titles like a ponce. The Truth and Logic of a position will stand upon its own merit, and I've made many a professor eat crow (others cry).

If you had the brains and the guts, you have spent the time to learn the language yourself, but I guess that was too hard for you.

And how my competence in Koine Greek fits in with Garee's word salads earns you the award of Non-Sequitur for the day, as Garee has earned the prominent position of being on my ignore list.

Congratulations,
Rhema

 

[Garee]

I've noticed that Rhema is such a self-proclaimed scholar that he rejects the translations by the recognized translations such as the KJV, RV, RVS, etc. Also, sadly, Garee, I have absolutely no idea what your posts are intended to convey. I so not see it is always profitable to respond to their gibberish. I actually wonder if some posters, such as these, actually have any grasp of the faith once delivered to the saints. People in this world live in the mess of a fallen creation, so they better seek real biblical answers, not the silly nonsense seen too often in this sort of forum.
The topic about slavery and racism shows such ignorance of the Bible! Was the Apostle Paul racist when he wrote;

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; (Titus 1:12-13, KJV)

Is there one verse anywhere in the Bible that condemns slavery as such? NO! In Philemon, Paul had a chance to condemn slavery, he did not. In Philemon, you do not read of Paul posing questions of how or why the slavery was not condemned. Did Paul worry whether the slave had been kidnapped? This is where you read humanists reading into their Bible their humanist traditions.

Yes, the Bible does not condemn slavery.

Believers are born again bond servants.

Rhema has simply redefined the word of God by violating the loving commandment not to change the meaning of one word. It can change the whole or all the commandments (Deuteronomy 4;2)

Deuteronomy 4;2;Ye shall not add unto the word (singular) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it,(singular) that ye may keep the commandments (plural) of the Lord your God which I command you.

The Greek obscure word rhema like apostle has a meaning established. Some use the Greek word rhema (as it is written) or apostle (sent messenger) and redefine it as highly venerable ones that lords it over the understanding or faith of the non- venerable pew warmers . Catholicism

They perform it to make the understanding obscure. Same with the Greek word sabbath which simply means rest turning it into a works righteousness false gospel

Rhema, ( as It is written) first use in Mathew 4

But He (Jesus) answered and said, "It is written", 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word (rhema) that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" (Matthew 4:4, HBFV).

The third time (Rhema ) is used in the New Testament it occurs in Matthew 12 it is when a Pharisee accused the Lord of casting out demons by the power of Satan. He warns us that God will hold humans accountable for every idle ( useless, powerless, faithless) word (rhema) that is spoken.

Three times at the beginning of the ministry of dynamic dual.( Mathew 4) The Holy Father, Christ working in the Son of man gave him living words of prophecy (rhema) as it is written to the apostle Jesus. Three throughout the Bible God's living word denotes the end of a matter .

It is rhema. (as it is written) again and again.

There is not defense against Rhema (sola scriptura)

Strike three struck out the devil. Never saw the faith as it is written ball come .Back to the bottomless dugout (LOL

Mathew 4:7-11Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.;Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;;And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

You could say Christ established Rhema (as it is written) on Mount Sinah giving it his personal as it is written touch . Both sides of the two tables with no room for denying sola scriptura .

Some do violate by adding things like "gospel of Thomas" or book of Enoch and not just the prophecy of Enoch. Ten words. Or take away the Revelation chapter. With it's warning not to add to the perfect (Rhema as it is written

Exodus 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. (Rhema )

In that way born again believers miraculously can defend that (gospel) which defends them. The sword of the spirit of Christ as it is written (rhema)

 

[Rhema]

Rhema has simply redefined the word of God

Garee, you have no idea what "the word of God" even means. Don't fool yourself.

Some use the Greek word rhema (as it is written)

And that's not what rhema means either. How you can muddle this up inside your head so badly just boggles the mind.

LINK to the Liddell Scott for rhema

A. that which is said or spoken, word, saying​

SAID, not WRITTEN. (Granted, though, that sometimes things said are written down.)

Rhema