The Diety of Jesus

[Butch5]

Butch, not sure why and how you think you can further discuss this topic when you have not explained how it does not incriminate God and mock Christianity. See post #34 to @Rhema and the four questions to @Rxlx in post #22.

You need to 'try' understand that discussion with you three feels exactly the same as discussion with flat earthers. I dare you any of you three to acknowledge and attempt to remove the elephant in the room. Be intellectually honest and stop evading simple questions.

Type a commonsensical reply in point form. KIngJ says X and Y in post 22, question 1. My reply to question 1 is ........

I've responded to your questions. Your questions present Jesus as suffering at the hand of God. That didn't happen. If it didn't happen what point is there in addressing, it?

I've acknowledged in another post that if one started with the same false premise as you've started with, they would reach the same conclusions you've reached. So, I have addressed your questions. The reasoning in your questions is valid. The problem is that you've started from a false premise. God did not punish Jesus. Jesus said he laid down His life. No one took it from Him.

You said, "You need to 'try' understand that discussion with you three feels exactly the same as discussion with flat earthers. I dare you any of you three to acknowledge and attempt to remove the elephant in the room. Be intellectually honest and stop evading simple questions."

The same could be said of you. Your argument is based on a false premise yet even though that has been pointed out numerous times you've refused to acknowledge it every time. Your argument is irrelevant if the premise that it's based on is false. Why would anyone spend time trying to explain a hypothetical situation that isn't possible?

Your argument doesn't even make sense. Your argument is that God punished Himself. Jesus is the one who suffered. That means that it couldn't have been the Father that punished Him because that would unjust as you've claimed that it's unjust for one to punish another for something they didn't do. It couldn't have been the Spirit for the same reason. That means Jesus had to punish Himself. But you said God punished Himself. Well, the Father is God. Did the Father also punish Himself? What about the Spirit? You claim the Spirit is a third person. Did He also punish Himself. You say these are all God, therefore they must all have punished themselves and each other. If all three are God and there's only one God, then all three must have punished each other. Can you not see how ridiculous this is? Your argument makes no sense at all.

 

[KingJ]

I've responded to your questions. Your questions present Jesus as suffering at the hand of God. That didn't happen. If it didn't happen what point is there in addressing, it?

You responded to one. I raised 4 questions to @Rxlx in post # 22. Every single one of them incriminate God and mock Christianity. You have to deal with all four.

As for the 'one' you took a stab at. You made the case that God is not evil and unjust as Jesus was sent as a ransom. I have given multiple examples to you of how this does most certainly not exonerate God. It just adds a sadistic side to Him. I gave you simple and detailed examples of why I say this, to which you have not tried to explain where the example given is wrong. You just say '''He is exonerated''. You have to prove it. This is why I say you have ostrich syndrome.

You need to take this example and reword it into a line that exonerates God, please try do that.

Let's say you made a gun (God made mankind).and knew that the gun would get no sales unless it was known to have killed someone (nobody would go to heaven unless Jesus was '''''ransomed'', '''punished'', ''paid penalty for sin'', ''volunteered'' pick whatever words you want). You give the gun to a person called lucifer. Let's say a criminal gang leader of a Mexican cartel. You chose your innocent daughter as the victim (Jesus was sinless and He was chosen Eph 1:4). Knowing that by choosing Lucifer your daughter would not just be shot but tortured and then shot. And you would not come to her aid even though she does try to call you and ask for help. (Jesus was sent as a lamb to the slaughter, He was abandoned, He asked God the Father for help, He was beaten and crucified). Do you think anyone on this planet with a working brain would think of you as a good, righteous and loving father?

Yes or No answer please.

 

[Rxlx]

Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus.

None of you - just like all your ancestors - go to heaven when you die but will all go into graves to feed the worms.

Today's Anglo-Saxon Arian Christians are the Lost Tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.

Jesus said Satan is ruling Earth and will do so until Jesus returns at the climax of Armageddon when the surviving Anglo-Sax Christians and a few Jews will be raptured up as Elijah was while Earth and most of you burn below.

 

[KingJ]

I've acknowledged in another post that if one started with the same false premise as you've started with, they would reach the same conclusions you've reached. So, I have addressed your questions. The reasoning in your questions is valid. The problem is that you've started from a false premise. God did not punish Jesus. Jesus said he laid down His life. No one took it from Him.

It is not a false premise. You are simply moving the goal posts when you state ''was not punished'' or ''He chose to be ransomed''. You seem unaware of all the pieces of this puzzle. The facts of the situation. 1. God is the Creator of all. 2. Jesus did die a cruel death for sins He did not commit. 3. God's law is that death is tied to sins. You zoom in only on the fact that Jesus offered His life but ignore these truths and many more which we can discuss once you deal with those three that I used in the example above.

You said, "You need to 'try' understand that discussion with you three feels exactly the same as discussion with flat earthers. I dare you any of you three to acknowledge and attempt to remove the elephant in the room. Be intellectually honest and stop evading simple questions."

The same could be said of you. Your argument is based on a false premise yet even though that has been pointed out numerous times you've refused to acknowledge it every time. Your argument is irrelevant if the premise that it's based on is false. Why would anyone spend time trying to explain a hypothetical situation that isn't possible?

Our 'one' job as Christians is to be ambassadors for Christ. For God.

2 Cor 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us.

Please try understand that we fail at our one job if we incriminate God. If we mock Jesus and the cross.

So, it is perfectly fine to have a back and forth on a topic like this that is very important to get right.

----------------------

I have been a regular on a few atheist sites for the last ten years. They all believe and teach that God is silly, twisted and evil for the exact same reasons given in my post above to you.

The only way God is exonerated is if He laid His life down for us. You will see this when you meditate on the facts and engage in a direct conversation. Now, fortunately for us, God has made our job easy as there many scriptures that refer to Jesus as Lord. See post # 36.

You 'debunk' these in your mind by saying that there are many ''lords''. That had me chuckling. If you read those scriptures I provided in post # 36 and those provided by other posters, it is clear that your mind is not on the topic.

I should not have to tell you that 'lords' were royalty and landowners. Jesus was born in a manger, worked as a carpenter and had no earthly royalty. This is why the only way we can call Him Lord is by the Holy Spirit. And, according to many scriptures, Lord = God.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Try understand that even Peter, with all the faith he had, needed a revelation of who Jesus was from above. Matt 16:16-17.

It is completely forgivable to not think of Jesus as Lord. Or God as three. But according to scripture that is evidence of not having the Holy Spirit or being a Christian.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Rxlx]

Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus.

Jesus prayed to himself the night before his crucifixion?

If he was GOD he could have gotten down off the cross.

But as the son he obeyed the father.

 

[KingJ]

Your argument doesn't even make sense. Your argument is that God punished Himself.

Correct.

Jesus is the one who suffered.

Correct. God made Himself flesh so that He could be a sacrifice for our sins.

That means that it couldn't have been the Father that punished Him because that would unjust as you've claimed that it's unjust for one to punish another for something they didn't do.

Correct. It is completely unjust to punish someone for sins they did not commit. I would like to hear you say you agree with that? It is surely a 'duh' fact?

I repeat, the 'ONLY' way God is exonerated for the cruel punishment Jesus received is if He made Himself flesh and bore it for us.

That would result in no evil from any party. It would be like a mother who wants a child committing to endure pain in childbirth.

It couldn't have been the Spirit for the same reason. That means Jesus had to punish Himself. But you said God punished Himself. Well, the Father is God. Did the Father also punish Himself? What about the Spirit? You claim the Spirit is a third person. Did He also punish Himself. You say these are all God, therefore they must all have punished themselves and each other. If all three are God and there's only one God, then all three must have punished each other. Can you not see how ridiculous this is? Your argument makes no sense at all.

You are trying to rationalize how one God can be three. Push the pause button on that. Can you first try take a stab at explaining to me where God comes from?

When you grasp that a human has not got the cognitive ability to grasp God, you enter a space where you just accept that some things about Him are beyond us.

But what is NOT beyond us is grasping what is good and evil.

Gen 3:22 the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

 

[KingJ]

Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus.

Jesus prayed to himself the night before his crucifixion?

If he was GOD he could have gotten down off the cross.

But as the son he obeyed the father.

You are trolling. You are not quoting any posts and trying to take part in a discussion.

 

[Rxlx]

Get a Bible and learn
Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus.

Jesus prayed to himself the night before his crucifixion?

If he was GOD he could have gotten down off the cross.

But as the son he obeyed the father.

 

[Rxlx]

You are trolling. You are not quoting any posts and trying to take part in a discussion.

Stop trolling your superior!
Get a KJV Study Bible to make all things clear.

 

[Butch5]

You responded to one. I raised 4 questions to @Rxlx in post # 22. Every single one of them incriminate God and mock Christianity. You have to deal with all four.

As for the 'one' you took a stab at. You made the case that God is not evil and unjust as Jesus was sent as a ransom. I have given multiple examples to you of how this does most certainly not exonerate God. It just adds a sadistic side to Him. I gave you simple and detailed examples of why I say this, to which you have not tried to explain where the example given is wrong. You just say '''He is exonerated''. You have to prove it. This is why I say you have ostrich syndrome.

You need to take this example and reword it into a line that exonerates God, please try do that.

Let's say you made a gun (God made mankind).and knew that the gun would get no sales unless it was known to have killed someone (nobody would go to heaven unless Jesus was '''''ransomed'', '''punished'', ''paid penalty for sin'', ''volunteered'' pick whatever words you want). You give the gun to a person called lucifer. Let's say a criminal gang leader of a Mexican cartel. You chose your innocent daughter as the victim (Jesus was sinless and He was chosen Eph 1:4). Knowing that by choosing Lucifer your daughter would not just be shot but tortured and then shot. And you would not come to her aid even though she does try to call you and ask for help. (Jesus was sent as a lamb to the slaughter, He was abandoned, He asked God the Father for help, He was beaten and crucified). Do you think anyone on this planet with a working brain would think of you as a good, righteous and loving father?

Yes or No answer please.

Why the incessant desire to blame God. God had nothing to do with it

 

[Butch5]

Correct.



Correct. God made Himself flesh so that He could be a sacrifice for our sins.



Correct. It is completely unjust to punish someone for sins they did not commit. I would like to hear you say you agree with that? It is surely a 'duh' fact?

I repeat, the 'ONLY' way God is exonerated for the cruel punishment Jesus received is if He made Himself flesh and bore it for us.

That would result in no evil from any party. It would be like a mother who wants a child committing to endure pain in childbirth.



You are trying to rationalize how one God can be three. Push the pause button on that. Can you first try take a stab at explaining to me where God comes from?

When you grasp that a human has not got the cognitive ability to grasp God, you enter a space where you just accept that some things about Him are beyond us.

But what is NOT beyond us is grasping what is good and evil.

Gen 3:22 the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

As usual you simply sidestep the ridiculousness of your position. The sentence was death. If God killed Himself who raised Him from the dead? Your argument is so asinine that one can't even make sense of it. You claim that Jesus is God, the Father, is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. So, that would mean that the Father and the Holy Spirit are the ones who punished Jesus. Yet, you claim that it is unjust for one to punish another who is innocent. It just doesn't work. You really should sit down and think through your position. The argument you're making only makes sense is one is a Modalist. As I've said before, you seem to be somewhere between Trinitarianism and Modalism. However, it seems like you're leaning more towards Modalism. If you want to argue your point from Modalism, great, your argument makes sense then. That's because in Modalism there aren't three persons. There is one person who is God and He simply manifests Himself as three personalities. Sometimes he's the father, sometimes the son, and sometimes he's the holy spirit. It's one being with three personalities. It's NOT three persons. It's one God, in one person who has three personalities. That is NOT the Trinity doctrine. That is Modalism. The only way your argument makes sense is if you argue from a Modalist position. However, you are not doing that. You are trying to argue from a Trinitarian position and from that position your argument is utter nonsense.

 

[KingJ]

Why the incessant desire to blame God.

Why all the ignorance to the point being made of your belief incriminating God, mocking Jesus and all of Christianity?

God had nothing to do with it

Incorrect. God made mankind. God made Jesus. God sent Jesus to the cross.

Stop being silly. Your MO is to play dumb?

 

[KingJ]

As usual you simply sidestep the ridiculousness of your position. The sentence was death. If God killed Himself who raised Him from the dead? Your argument is so asinine that one can't even make sense of it. You claim that Jesus is God, the Father, is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. So, that would mean that the Father and the Holy Spirit are the ones who punished Jesus. Yet, you claim that it is unjust for one to punish another who is innocent. It just doesn't work. You really should sit down and think through your position. The argument you're making only makes sense is one is a Modalist. As I've said before, you seem to be somewhere between Trinitarianism and Modalism. However, it seems like you're leaning more towards Modalism. If you want to argue your point from Modalism, great, your argument makes sense then. That's because in Modalism there aren't three persons. There is one person who is God and He simply manifests Himself as three personalities. Sometimes he's the father, sometimes the son, and sometimes he's the holy spirit. It's one being with three personalities. It's NOT three persons. It's one God, in one person who has three personalities. That is NOT the Trinity doctrine. That is Modalism. The only way your argument makes sense is if you argue from a Modalist position. However, you are not doing that. You are trying to argue from a Trinitarian position and from that position your argument is utter nonsense.

I can feel my brain rotting away as a I read this post. Stop trolling by trying to change the topic.

I asked you so nicely to 'try' understand that a non-trinitarian belief incriminates God and gave you such simple reasons and a very simple example.

Save your emotions on the trinity and a Modalist position for a later discussion, focus on the accusations of your belief, first.

But as always, I expect nothing more from you three.That your belief incriminates God and mocks Jesus and all of Christianity, seems to mean nothing to you. Imagine that.

----------------

Please can I ask for the TENTH and last time that you type direct responses to each of the 4 points made in post # 22 and edit the example given in post # 63 to better explain your belief.

 

[KingJ]

Stop trolling your superior!
Get a KJV Study Bible to make all things clear.

I have accused your belief of incriminating God, I have shown you scripture that says if you don't believe Jesus is Lord / God, you are not a Christian...........and this is your reply? .

If someone accused me of the above, I would take it very seriously! and properly explain myself!

According to scripture, we must take accusations from fellow brothers and sisters in Christ very seriously. Please meditate on this and try post a sound rebuttal to my post # 22 and # 63.

According to 1 Cor 5:11, I must have nothing to do with you.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

 

[Rxlx]

Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus.

Jesus is GOD's son and was sent to Earth to be THE SACRIFICAL LAMB THAT BORE ALL HUMANITY'S SINS.
Just as did the unfortunate lamb of the pair taken into the temple; one was selected for throat sliting and sacrificial burning on the altar while the other was loaded with sins and and sent into the wilderness which in those days was full of lions, bears and foxes.

You Babyloniant Trinitarians are a delight to your god Satan.

 

[Butch5]

I can feel my brain rotting away as a I read this post. Stop trolling by trying to change the topic.

I asked you so nicely to 'try' understand that a non-trinitarian belief incriminates God and gave you such simple reasons and a very simple example.

Save your emotions on the trinity and a Modalist position for a later discussion, focus on the accusations of your belief, first.

But as always, I expect nothing more from you three.That your belief incriminates God and mocks Jesus and all of Christianity, seems to mean nothing to you. Imagine that.

----------------

Please can I ask for the TENTH and last time that you type direct responses to each of the 4 points made in post # 22 and edit the example given in post # 63 to better explain your belief.

No, because each of the 4 points are fallacious. They are only points in one blames God for what happened to Jesus. Which seems to be an obsession. As I've stated an untold number of times, God did not punish Jesus.

The explanation you received was to show the asininities of your position. It seems to me that you're a Modalist arguing for the Trinitarian position. That's like a Jehovah's Witness arguing in favor of Mormonism.

 

[Butch5]

Why all the ignorance to the point being made of your belief incriminating God, mocking Jesus and all of Christianity?

As I've stated an untold number of times, it doesn't incriminate God. Your misunderstanding of Scripture and theology "DOES NOT" validate your statement. Sadly, you're too obsessed with your little scenario to see anything else. Also, you incessant obsession with Justice leaves no room for forgiveness.

Incorrect. God made mankind. God made Jesus. God sent Jesus to the cross.

God made Jesus? That's not Modalism or Trinitarianism. Are you also part Arian? I've never seen this combination before. You're definitely not Trinitarian because one of the major tenets of Trinitarianism is from the Nicene Creed and states plainly that the Son was begotten "NOT:" made.

God sent Jesus to the cross? Can you provide Scripture please?

Stop being silly. Your MO is to play dumb?

Really? It's not my arguments that are laced with fallacies.


If God punished Himself who raised Him from the dead?

 

[Curtis]

If God punished Himself who raised Him from the dead?

God the Father did not punish Jesus. Jesus freely gave up his life to save sinners and took the wrath of God upon himself that was suppose to come upon every unrepentdant sinner.

 

[Butch5]

God the Father did not punish Jesus. Jesus freely gave up his life to save sinners and took the wrath of God upon himself that was suppose to come upon every unrepentdant sinner.

I've been trying to tell KingJ that for pages. However, Jesus did not take the wrath of God. Why are Christians so insistent on blaming God. I don't get it. Christians claim God is wonderful beyond measure, yet their doctrines say just the opposite. This is one reason that I say people don't think through their doctrines. Let me ask you a question. Would you serve a god who lies? Because that's the implication of the doctrine of Penal Atonement, or the idea that God punished Jesus, whether willingly or not. All through the Scriptures God says He will forgive sins. Yet, according to Penal Atonement that's not the case. Instead of forgiveness, there is this penalty that must be paid in order to remit sins. This idea comes from the Satisfaction model of the Atonement and it's absurd. But at least the Satisfaction model wasn't as bad as Penal Atonement. Penal Atonement has God punishing His Son for something that He said He would forgive. The doctrine essentially accuses God of lying. It's just like eternal torment. People say God is wonder beyond comprehension in one breath and in the next they say He tortures people for all eternity. Too many Christians beliefs don't fit with what they say. People need to start thinking through the implications of their doctrines.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus did not take the wrath of God.

Isa 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Why are Christians so insistent on blaming God. I don't get it. Christians claim God is wonderful beyond measure,

"Some" do. Others of us believe God has standards.

All through the Scriptures God says He will forgive sins. Yet, according to Penal Atonement that's not the case.

He forgives us... BECAUSE of Jesus's sacrifice.

Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
Heb 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

1Cor 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1Pet 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
1Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;