Works based salvation ??

[Butch5]

2 Cor 5:8 and Rev 6:10 speaks to saints being with God when they die. Where is God currently residing?

A. Shanghai, China
B. New York City, USA
C. Heaven

Neither of these say people go to Heaven when they die. Your question, "where is God currently residing" shows that you are deducing your claim from your understanding of these passages. However, I would submit that your understanding of these passages is incorrect. This is clearly seen by the fact that the dead can't speak. Revelation is a book full of symbolism. So, you'll really need to show why anyone would understand that these are actually alive dead people and not symbolic. Yeah, I actually had to say alive dead people. 2 Cor is clearly not saying dead people are alive and go to heaven. If you read it in context it's talking about the Resurrection.

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Co 5.

Notice, two houses (states of being) One is mortal, the other immortal. Notice, he wants the earthly house to be "clothed upon." He wants the heavenly to be put on over the earthly so that, "being clothed we shall not be found naked." He's talking about to bodies (states of being) and he doesn't want to be found naked. He doesn't want to be found in the state that Greek philosophy taught, a spirit without a body. Paul says he doesn't want that. He says, "not for that we would be unclothed but clothed upon." The final proof that this is about the Resurrection is his statement, "that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Your claim that 2 Cor 5:8 has people in Heaven with God, is the exact opposite of what Paul is saying. Paul is saying he doesn't want to be unclothed. That was the Greek hope, not the Christian hope. So, I would again submit, no, no one has debunked it. One cannot debunk truth.

 

[KingJ]

If you were honest you would continue to post 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I have asked you to explain the relevance.

You obviously prefer to call GOD, Jesus and various Bible writers liars by claiming you will fly off to heaven when you pop your clogs.

I have asked you to provide / snippet the footnotes you believe prove your case.

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Rxlx, you are trolling. Not actually adding anything of value. Please take time to properly read a post and provide a sound and efforted reply.

 

[KingJ]

On the contrary. I showed beyond doubt that works are necessary

No, you have dodged the point. In your mind you may think this. I propose you re-red and try again.

It's clearly not a parable? And yet you gave no evidence to support that claim.

Butch, again you miss the point, and we have had this discussion twice before. You completely and utterly remove that passage from your bible. Not a single word in it features in any of your teaching. The only time you reference the passage is to harass someone who listens to and follows what Jesus said for HALF a chapter!

That names are used proves nothing. The claim that it's an actual event because names are used is baseless. Ever heard the joke about the three guys who died and met Peter at the pearly gates? I guess that Joke is true because it uses names. That's a nonsensical claim.

What evidence is there that it's a parable? The parable starts out with these words,


19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 16:19.

The parable before this one starts exactly the same.

16 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 16.

The parable before that one starts out

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Your argument falls on its head as Jesus mentions the name Lazarus.

Then, it is quite understandable for Jesus to not mention the name of someone's great grandfather who is burning in flames. That is a 'Duh' fact surely?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Lk 15:11.

We're starting to see a pattern here. What other reasons do we know it's a parable? Well, dead people can't speak. Dead people can't see. Dead people don't thirst. Dead people don't make requests on behalf of others.

Joy, you now also have this belief. Your crazy and illogical beliefs you hold to are adding up fast.

By completely and utterly rejecting Luke 16 you will arrive at such a silly theory. Now in your defence, playing devil's advocate, I do see a good intent in you to hold to this belief along with annihilationism, so as to defend God. Believing God has people burning in fire in Hades right now and for all eternity is a hard pill to swallow.

I will just say that you don't need to do this. You are clearly cherry-picking words and scriptures. 2 Cor 5:8 alone debunks this.

If you read Luke 16 properly you will see the rich man is not being 'tortured' in fire. Torture akin to a brazen bull. As will be the case for eternity.

Except there wouldn't be any repentance of sin if Christ hadn't died.

Yes, there would. Psalm 51:17 is in the OT.

One verse? Seriously? Can you provide a single verse that says people go to Heaven when they die?

2 Cor 5:8

Wow, you usually at least try to make a case. You're just blowing off everything. It just shows there is no case to be made.

I propose you re-read what I wrote and meditate on it. Imagine thinking that God of the UNIVERSE who gave His life for us will NOT allow Elon Musk to fly to Mars?

I stand by what I said, those who teach we will be earth bound are attention seekers and clearly not thinkers. Earth will be the capital city only.

Those things haven't been revealed so claiming what you are is baseless

Incorrect. Many scriptures mention what we can expect in heaven. When you put them all together you arrive at my logical line.

Example, Jesus rides a horse, there are roads and gates in the new Jerusalem. Alot more scriptures to consider. I have made a post on these a couple months back. I will just say that people do not meditate on scripture and go 'mad' with their theories.

Is a horse: A - A dog, B - A Cat or C- A horse?
Is a gate: A - A door, B - A chimney or C - A gate?
Is a human: A - A dog, B - A monkey or C - A human?

This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. Trying to break up works into different categories so as to fit one's theology.

Trying to sound smart and simply dodging the point made because you have no come back.

Imagine reading the bible and missing all the scriptures mentioning repentance, right heart, faith and what exactly salvation is.

Saying the words ''works- based salvation'' is an insult to the cross. Perhaps you should better define the works you are alluding to? Maybe there is some truth there?

 

[KingJ]

Neither of these say people go to Heaven when they die.

You and many others make a meal of a silly line for attention and don't realise you stumble the weak here. By stating nobody goes to heaven you leave the weak to assume they will not be with God. Accepting Jesus does not qualify us to be with Him in His home. This is a SICK and extremely naive view to hold to. I hope you realise that.

IMAGINE teaching that God of the universe will not welcome a saint into heaven. Sick! belief! Straight from the devil! Plese try understanding this fact.

Your post does not deserve a reply. I type only for the reader:

1. 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Where does God live? A - Shanghai? B - New York? C- Heaven?

2. Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The altar mentioned in verse 9 is in heaven. Here is a link explaining this - The Altar in Revelation (see paragraph 4).

3. Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

What does citizenship mean? A - Illegal alien with no passport, B - resident with a passport?

4. 1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If the Lord comes down from heaven, and He says we will be with Him forever, does that mean that when we are raptured up with Him at that moment, we go to A - Mars, B - Earth or C - Heaven?

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Please take this evil demonic line you keep pushing and completely and utterly remove it from the words you type. You are better and surely not that naive that you do not realise the damage it can do.

 

[Rxlx]

No one goes to heaven and all the dead are still in their graves.

When Jesus ssaid he had other mansions he may have been referring to th eother planets which GOD made to the same design as Earth - as ball of water and basic elements.
Obviousl Mercury, Venus are too close to sun and others too far but it would take Him much to bring them all into a single orbit suitable for human habitation.
But then all the stars will fall an Earth will be totally remade.
I post this on science websites just to hear the evolutionists and stargazers howl and ban me!

 

[Butch5]

You and many others make a meal of a silly line for attention and don't realise you stumble the weak here. By stating nobody goes to heaven you leave the weak to assume they will not be with God. Accepting Jesus does not qualify us to be with Him in His home. This is a SICK and extremely naive view to hold to. I hope you realise that.

This is the logical fallacy known as an appeal to disgust. I asked you for just one passage of Scripture that says people go to heaven when they die. Instead of presenting Scripture you appealed to your own though. Surely you can provide at least one passage.

IMAGINE teaching that God of the universe will not welcome a saint into heaven. Sick! belief! Straight from the devil! Plese try understanding this fact.

This is the fallacy known as the Red Herring.

Your post does not deserve a reply. I type only for the reader:

1. 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Where does God live? A - Shanghai? B - New York? C- Heaven?

I already addressed this. Your understanding of this passage is incorrect. Paul is speaking of the Resurrection, not some intermediate state between death and the Resurrection. Look at the context. Let's look further as the passage. Firstly, Paul is stating a desire, not a fact. Secondly, the "body" here is not the flesh. It is the body of Christ, the church. How do we know this, we know this from the Greek words that Paul chose that are translated absent and present.

ἐκδημέω has the same meaning as the more common ἀποδημέω, and like it derives from ἔκδημος (ἀπόδημος) == ἐκ (ἀπὸ) τοῦ δήμου ὤκ. It thus has the sense of “to be abroad,” the root δῆμ- being used in sense b., though there is a hint of c., since the man who is abroad is also away from his own people. The word is found in class. Gk. (e.g., ὁ μὲν οὖν ἐκδημῶν οὕτω καὶ τοιοῦτος ὢν ἐκδημείτω, Plat. Leg., XII, 952d;

Walter Grundmann, “Δῆμος, Ἐκδημέω, Ἐνδημέω, Παρεπίδημος,” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, and Gerhard Friedrich (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964–), 63.

Ekdemeo and Endemeo. The word carries the sense of being away from one's people and being with one's people. Who were Paul's people? They were the Christians, the "body" of Christ.

2. Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The altar mentioned in verse 9 is in heaven. Here is a link explaining this - The Altar in Revelation (see paragraph 4).

This is a book of symbolism. If you're going to make the case that dead people are alive, I'm all ears?

3. Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

What does citizenship mean? A - Illegal alien with no passport, B - resident with a passport?

If you're an American your citizenship is Washington D C. Are you there?

4. 1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If the Lord comes down from heaven, and He says we will be with Him forever, does that mean that when we are raptured up with Him at that moment, we go to A - Mars, B - Earth or C - Heaven?

It's right there in your own words. The Lord comes down from Heaven. What here says people go up to Heaven?

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Please take this evil demonic line you keep pushing and completely and utterly remove it from the words you type. You are better and surely not that naive that you do not realise the damage it can do.

You might want to be careful calling the teaching of Scripture demonic. That's a dangerous place to be.

 

[Butch5]

No, you have dodged the point. In your mind you may think this. I propose you re-red and try again.

Denial doesn't make your case.

Butch, again you miss the point, and we have had this discussion twice before. You completely and utterly remove that passage from your bible. Not a single word in it features in any of your teaching. The only time you reference the passage is to harass someone who listens to and follows what Jesus said for HALF a chapter!

On the contrary. I've shown clearly that it's a parable and not some Greek philosophical belief.

Your argument falls on its head as Jesus mentions the name Lazarus.

Then, it is quite understandable for Jesus to not mention the name of someone's great grandfather who is burning in flames. That is a 'Duh' fact surely?

As I said that claim is baseless. Whether He uses a name or not has no bearing on the actuality of the event.

Joy, you now also have this belief. Your crazy and illogical beliefs you hold to are adding up fast.

By completely and utterly rejecting Luke 16 you will arrive at such a silly theory. Now in your defence, playing devil's advocate, I do see a good intent in you to hold to this belief along with annihilationism, so as to defend God. Believing God has people burning in fire in Hades right now and for all eternity is a hard pill to swallow.

I will just say that you don't need to do this. You are clearly cherry-picking words and scriptures. 2 Cor 5:8 alone debunks this.

If you read Luke 16 properly you will see the rich man is not being 'tortured' in fire. Torture akin to a brazen bull. As will be the case for eternity.

Your understanding of this passage, like that of 2 Cor. 5:8 is incorrect. Ask yourself, If Jesus is teaching about an afterlife, why is He speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees, rather than His disciples?

Yes, there would. Psalm 51:17 is in the OT.



2 Cor 5:8

This passage doesn't say people got to Heaven when they die. That's an inference you're drawing from the passage. It's an incorrect inference.

I propose you re-read what I wrote and meditate on it. Imagine thinking that God of the UNIVERSE who gave His life for us will NOT allow Elon Musk to fly to Mars?

I stand by what I said, those who teach we will be earth bound are attention seekers and clearly not thinkers. Earth will be the capital city only.

It doesn't matter if you stand by it. The Scriptures are clear. There is not a single passage of Scripture saying that people go to Heaven when they die. However, we do have Scripture telling both the Jews and the disciples that they cannot go to Heaven. If the disciples couldn't go what makes you think anyone else could?

31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 13:31–35.

Incorrect. Many scriptures mention what we can expect in heaven. When you put them all together you arrive at my logical line.

Example, Jesus rides a horse, there are roads and gates in the new Jerusalem. Alot more scriptures to consider. I have made a post on these a couple months back. I will just say that people do not meditate on scripture and go 'mad' with their theories.

Is a horse: A - A dog, B - A Cat or C- A horse?
Is a gate: A - A door, B - A chimney or C - A gate?
Is a human: A - A dog, B - A monkey or C - A human?

They don't because we're not going there.

Trying to sound smart and simply dodging the point made because you have no come back.

Imagine reading the bible and missing all the scriptures mentioning repentance, right heart, faith and what exactly salvation is.

Saying the words ''works- based salvation'' is an insult to the cross. Perhaps you should better define the works you are alluding to? Maybe there is some truth there?

It's not about trying to sound smart. It's about understanding proper reasoning so that one doesn't get lead astray. Too, many don't reason properly. That's one reason why these erroneous doctrines continue in the Church. It's not insult to the Cross; it's the command of Christ. The definition of works is pretty straight forward. The bottom line is that Scripture is clear. Faith, if it has not works is dead. James showed his faith out of his works.


Stop and think about something. Most Christians believe that the ultimate goal is to go to Heaven. Now, if that was the goal, don't you think it would be plastered all over the Bible? Don't you think we'd have at least one passage that stated such? If the whole purpose, was for Christians to go to Heaven surely it would be stated somewhere. Instead, all anyone can produce are inferences that they draw. That's not just a red flag. It's a huge red flag. Not one passage in 66 books that says people go to Heave when they die, not one.

We don't have that problem with faith. It's stated clearly.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 2:7–8.

It's stated clearly. No inferences.

We don't have that problem with the Lord's return.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 14:3.

It's stated clearly.

We don't have that problem with Repentance.

do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 2:37–38.

All of these doctrines and we have crystal clear statements. Yet, when it comes to the supposed ultimate goal of the Christian life, we have nothing. Not a single statement. The best anyone can present are inferences that they've drawn. It's pretty clear that it's not what the Bible teaches.

 

[Butch5]

That is why I said "New Covenant".
Paul basically answers this as well.
They are in agreement.

I guess we see it differently. I see the works as a confirmation of your faith in Jesus Christ, while you must from what I gather as being separate one from the other and a requirement to being saved. Which always has me wondering if that is the case, exactly how much of the works is necessary for one to be saved? It would be sad, if you fall short by one work from being saved. For I don't see the amount of work necessary to being saved according to anyone.

I mean what kind of servant sits on their butts doing nothing and expect to be well received who James wanted to shake up? Be a faithful servant brother, and be about the Lord's Business, and you will be fine in Christ Jesus, but not because of anything you did, but because Jesus did it all!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I disagree. It is because we did something. We find that all the way back in Genesis.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 4:6–7.

Whether Cain was accepted was based on how he did. Paul tells us the same thing.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the uGentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:2–11.

Those who continue in good deeds are seeking eternal life. Those who do evil are seeking wrath. The good deeds precede eternal life.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I disagree. It is because we did something. We find that all the way back in Genesis.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 4:6–7.

Whether Cain was accepted was based on how he did. Paul tells us the same thing.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the uGentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:2–11.

Those who continue in good deeds are seeking eternal life. Those who do evil are seeking wrath. The good deeds precede eternal life.

This is why I said we see it differently. You see works as a necessary component to eternal life, while Jesus to me is the necessity, and works a byproduct of His Grace. However, I can assume that in both our cases it does not separate our need of repentance.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

This is why I said we see it differently. You see works as a necessary component to eternal life, while Jesus to me is the necessity, and works a byproduct of His Grace. However, I can assume that in both our cases it does not separate our need of repentance.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

The reason I see it this way is because Paul said those who continue in good deeds are seeking eternal life. If doing good deeds is seeking eternal life, then those deed must precede eternal life.

 

[Christ4Ever]

The reason I see it this way is because Paul said those who continue in good deeds are seeking eternal life. If doing good deeds is seeking eternal life, then those deed must precede eternal life.

Yes, I understand but you better have Jesus first and foremost, or all your works will get you is nothing but the law to be judged by. There is none but our Lord and Savior who could satisfy that requirement.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22-23 KJV

Just don't believe you can stand on what you have done brother!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I understand but you better have Jesus first and foremost, or all your works will get you is nothing but the law to be judged by. There is none but our Lord and Savior who could satisfy that requirement.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22-23 KJV

Just don't believe you can stand on what you have done brother!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I thought that was a given. Obviously, one must have Christ.

 

[KingJ]

This is the logical fallacy known as an appeal to disgust. I asked you for just one passage of Scripture that says people go to heaven when they die. Instead of presenting Scripture you appealed to your own though. Surely you can provide at least one passage.

This is the fallacy known as the Red Herring.

You live in your own world where Butch reads and interprets as he wishes. If anything is a red herring, it's your last two posts to me.

I already addressed this. Your understanding of this passage is incorrect. Paul is speaking of the Resurrection, not some intermediate state between death and the Resurrection. Look at the context. Let's look further as the passage. Firstly, Paul is stating a desire, not a fact. Secondly, the "body" here is not the flesh. It is the body of Christ, the church. How do we know this, we know this from the Greek words that Paul chose that are translated absent and present.

What a load of croc. This is called grabbing at a straw.

This is a book of symbolism. If you're going to make the case that dead people are alive, I'm all ears?

That verse says they are and after a terrible death. It is clear you have torn out the pages of Luke 16 and Revelations from your bible. I would like to see what is left of it.

If you're an American your citizenship is Washington D C. Are you there?

Waiting for you to realise having a citizenship means I can come and go as I please.

It's right there in your own words. The Lord comes down from Heaven. What here says people go up to Heaven?

I think you missed the part that says we will be with Him. Now if He comes from heaven, where is His home?

You might want to be careful calling the teaching of Scripture demonic. That's a dangerous place to be.

You dance around my point highlighting the damage your simply braindead and naive line can do. That is not wise.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I thought that was a given. Obviously, one must have Christ.

You'd be surprised, with that given how many would say He is not necessary.
So, you are not saved then or just don't know?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

You'd be surprised, with that given how many would say He is not necessary.
So, you are not saved then or just don't know?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

[Butch5]

You live in your own world where Butch reads and interprets as he wishes. If anything is a red herring, it's your last two posts to me.

Understanding Logical Fallacies: Types and Examples - Student Notes | Student Notes

What a load of croc. This is called grabbing at a straw.

No. It's called exegesis. Breaking down the text to see what is being said.

That verse says they are and after a terrible death. It is clear you have torn out the pages of Luke 16 and Revelations from your bible. I would like to see what is left of it.

I know what it says. It's also a book filled with symbolism. Since there is nothing in the known universe of dead people being alive you have no evidence other than your understanding of this passage that you're trying to convince us is speaking of living dead people. Do you hear how bazaar that sounds. Dead people are alive? Why then aren't they called living people?

Waiting for you to realise having a citizenship means I can come and go as I please.

Maybe if you were there. However, you're not. You're here on earth.

I think you missed the part that says we will be with Him. Now if He comes from heaven, where is His home?

Not at all. However, He's not returning to Heaven, He's coming here.

You dance around my point highlighting the damage your simply braindead and naive line can do. That is not wise.

There's only one person in this conversation who is dancing King and it's not me. What I presented to you is Scripturally sound. Therefore, I would recommend being careful what you call it. You can do as you wish I just think you're in a precarious place

 

[Christ4Ever]

You'd be surprised, with that given how many would say He is not necessary.
So, you are not saved then or just don't know?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I'm not sure what you're asking.

I thought that was a given. Obviously, one must have Christ.

Evidently, the rationale for needing Christ is not as self-evident as you suggested.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Evidently, the rationale for needing Christ is not as self-evident as you suggested.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I can't imagine something thinking Christ isn't necessary.

 

[Dave M]

I can't imagine something thinking Christ isn't necessary.

Ray comfort is a evangelist that is on you tube, and in his interviews most think they are saved because they are good people, (this works based salvation) he is quick to point out why no one is good.

 

[Butch5]

Ray comfort is a evangelist that is on you tube, and in his interviews most think they are saved because they are good people, (this works based salvation) he is quick to point out why no one is good.

I'm familiar with Ray Comfort. I would say that is ignorance. The teaching of works salvation is a rebuttal of the Catholic teachings round the time of Martin Luther. These were things such as indulgences and the like. People were told they could by their loved ones into the Kingdom. Somehow this morphed into the idea that anything a person does is a work and therefore has nothing to do with salvation. That's the problem with these doctrines they always evolve. About 85% of what the Church teaches today has evolved out of the original teachings of the Church. It's not the same as it was in the beginning.