Dear Brother,
That could be said about just about anything and anyone! lol
I understand the point you are trying to make, but is it your position that with the original autographs, we'd know the fullest of what was then actually written and know the truth without quarreling?
No. That would take the apostles. However, there is a saying, "you don't know what you don't know." This statement is incredibly true. The reason Christians quarrel over the Scriptures is becasue many don't know what they don't know.
Take a look at Matthew 5:48 and tell me how many variances of what it means in a standalone fashion or in its entirety you won't come across some significant difference that would say; are we there yet, process, completion, need to be so...And yet we are to know the fullness of God through writings on a manuscript? Even in Jesus' day, in talking John 5:39 to the religious leaders He talked of it was of more interest to them the Written Word, then the personage of Him.
But see, that's the problem, the variances. Jesus didn't mean 10 different things when He said that. He meant one. If 10 people have 10 variations, then 9 of them are wrong. That's where the 10 should come together and figure out who is correct.
And the beat goes on and on...
I love your desire/passion and all those who want to know the truth perfectly, and I do believe you'd be of the belief that the burden you carry would be lifted from you, once knowing it for a surety. You'd also be free of the burden you carry with your pastor if you have it in fullness, but and this is a big one. You'll not find it in what one calls the Written Word of God but will have it when you abide in the fullness of the Word of God who is Jesus/Yeshua the Son of God. There is nothing like that freedom Brother.
My goal is to understand what God has revealed to us. That is His word. Everything else is subjective. That's not to say we can't learn of God through the Spirit, it's just subjective. I can't even count the number of times I've heard Christians claim that the Holy Spirit revealed something to them and yet that something was directly opposed to what is stated in Scripture. God's Spirit isn't going to oppose His word. However, these Christians, convinced that what they've understood is from the Spirit reject even the possibility that it could be wrong. Thus they will never come to the truth on that subject because they are certain God it to them.
The burden for the pastor is that, as Paul says, his works may be burned up. There is also the consideration for the congregation. Many cannot even defend their faith.
So, you mention a Pastor who is able to do so much with the time given, which begs then the question of what holds you from being in that congregation that I'm sure you'd think you'd find the answers you seek, and at the very least be in agreement in that one? I'd even pose the question on why be here on Talk Jesus when other sites exist that I'm sure are like minded to what you believe is true? Not that I would want you to leave, but it truly makes one wonder that one who believes in an overriding truth existing is now willing to seek it in those who in their eyes do not have it?
I was in that congregation. However, he retired to start an internet ministry, which I do follow. As for finding a church or forum that has like beliefs, why would I do that? Then I would, like much of Christendom, just be in an echo chamber. I'd just be around a bunch of people who echo my beliefs. In that situation iron cannot sharpen iron. In that situation growth doesn't happen. That only brings about stagnation. Growth comes from having my beliefs challenged and in challenging the beliefs of others.
The reason I'm in the church that I am is the help others grow. The circumstances that lead me there were rather peculiar and I suspect orchestrated by God. I believe He has urged me to go here. And, I believe He has purpose for me being here.
And the beat goes on and on...
Scripture has always been used to address differences, and sadly to create them as well. When in truth many cannot even agree what the construes the Word of God in order to have the discussion in the first place.
Naturally, people seek a foundation upon which they can base their lives, believing they are fulfilling God's will without bearing the responsibility or so they think. Can or do they want to they truly find it when each individual holds their own truth? You think that with the subdivisions that now exist in both Triune and Anti-Trinitarians (for lack of better word) that each person seeking the truth would help all find it, in this world, that has active enemies to battle against, and find success? If you see the Book of Revelation as the Word of God, you know that's not happening.
But why do so many hold their own truth? I would submit that in large part it is what I posted above. "You don't know what you don't know."
I would also submit that if everyone on this forum had an extensive understanding of the history of ancient Israel and early church history the beliefs of many would be vastly different than they are now. Many people hold the views that they do because, "they don't know what they don't know."
Why would you believe it to be otherwise, when even what is the Word of God is disputed? (Not all believe the Book of Revelation is the Word of God.) You have so many subdivisions of what the meaning of a word means, that it becomes almost impossible to hold a theological discussion without conflict. Add to that context, which doesn't necessarily even take into account a person's leanings, be it Liberal or Conservative, level of education, and you have a lack of unity unseen even in at any other time of history of the church. I would almost have to agree with the Catholics back in the day on keeping the Word of God from the lay people!
I've though that too. However, that doesn't change the truth. It just means a lot of people are wrong. Paul knew this.
17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19
For there must be also heresies among you,
that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 11:17–19.
Even in Paul's day there were heresies among the people. Paul said they must be there so that those who were approved would be made manifest. Just because we have so much error today doesn't mean we can't know the truth. We can know the truth if we are humble. 'God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.' I think a lot of the problem for some is that our humanity gets in the way. People don't want to be wrong. People have egos. People have pride. People don't want to be embarrassed. I think a lot of times it's things like this that keep us from coming together to find the truth.
I guess the problem ultimately lies with the belief that people have the view that if they have a theological discussion with a person/s, and they have held their position or have gotten the better of the other person, then they must be right!!! When in truth it might not be the case at all!!! Still, it allows them to agree to disagree which may not solve anything, but at least it allows for fellowship to continue. In truth I don't see much of the later happening here on TJ.
And the beat goes on and on...
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
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That goes back to people being people. egos, embarrassment, pride, etc. I believe these things are the problem that causes the breakdown in discussion. That in itself is a problem because Christians are called to be humble, not prideful.
Also, I forgot to answer your question in the last post. No, I don't think people who hold the Trinity doctrine aren't Christians or are of Satan. They are Christians. I may think they're wrong, but they are Christians.
