Are we firstborn with a Divine nature or a sin nature?

[Curtis]

After Jesus was baptized by John, he was led by the Holy Spirit into the desert to be tempted of the Devil. Jesus fasted for 40 days, and nights, and the scripture says, “ ….”Jesus was hungry....”

The divine nature of Jesus who was God the Father in him could not be tempted with evil, but Jesus's human nature could. The bible tells us something very important about the “NATURE” of temptations.

James 1:14 But EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED, WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed.

The word, “LUST” simply means, “A STRONG DESIRE”. Jesus, after not eating for 40 days, had a “STRONG DESIRE” to eat!! Jesus was tempted in his human nature to eat food. His divine nature does not need to eat food to sustain it's life, but for the human nature to stay alive it needs food!!!

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, COMMAND THAT THESE STONES BE MADE BREAD.

The other two temptations came as a result that Jesus's "strong desire" to proof he was the son, but not by casting himself down so his angels would bear him up, but by the works his Father would do through him by many miracles.

The last temptation would come because Jesus's "strong desire" to destroy the works of the Devil, and recover what Adam had lost in the garden of Eden, not by worshiping the Devil, but through his cross!!

The nature of temptation(s) we experience in this life is the results that come from our own STRONG DESIRES, and as a result of those strong desires, the Devil entices us to sin!!!

How would a Christian stop these temptations that come from within ourselves (human nature)?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YE SHALL NOT FULFIL THE LUST (strong desires) OF THE FLESH.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Was Jesus born of the “flesh” or was He born of the “Spirit?”

The word “flesh” and “Spirit” speak of the “nature” working in the man.

Let’s explore ….

Jhn 3:6 - That which is born G1080of G1537 the flesh G4561 is G2076flesh; G4561 and G2532 that which is born G1080 of G1537 the Spirit G4151is G2076 spirit. G4151

The word “flesh” G4561 means ….

the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"

1. without any suggestion of depravity
2. the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
3. the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
4. a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
5. the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God”

The word Spirit G4151 means…

1. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ”

So according to the meanings of those 2 words,( flesh vs. Spirit) which “nature” do you think Jesus had? The sinful “human nature”, or the “Divine nature” of God?

 

[Beetow]

• 1John 4:2-3 . . Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth
that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not
that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of
antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in
the world.

The "flesh" spoken of in that passage is David's flesh.

• Luke 1:32 . . He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and
the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

• Rom 1:3 . . Concerning His son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the
seed of David according to the flesh

In order for Jesus to be David's biological progeny, his mother had to be David's
biological progeny too because Joseph was not involved in Mary's pregnancy. In
other words: Mary had to be Jesus' real mother so Jesus could be born David's seed
according to the flesh.

There are folks at large insisting that Mary wasn't Jesus' real mother, rather, she
was his surrogate mother, i.e. Jesus was an implant, viz: a test tube baby; so to
speak. Those people are in very grave danger because they are of the spirit of
antichrist, viz: they have the wrong spirit.

• Rom 8:9 . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to
Christ.
_

 

[Curtis]

Jesus is the only one born of the flesh (water) and of the Spirit both at the same time. If Jesus was not born of the flesh (water) he would have no legal grounds to operate on planet earth. If Jesus was not born of the Spirit he could not operate as the Son of God.

If Jesus did not have a "human nature" then he could not be tempted as we are yet without sin.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Samson2020]

The difference with Jesus was, He was firstborn of the Holy Spirit, and already with the Divine nature of God. In that way when tempted, He was able to resist all sin and overcome the world.

• Jas 1:13 . . God cannot be tempted by evil

• 1John 4:2-3 . . Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth
that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not
that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of
antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in
the world.

The "flesh" spoken of in that passage is David's flesh.

• Luke 1:32 . . He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and
the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

• Rom 1:3 . . Concerning His son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the
seed of David according to the flesh

In order for Jesus to be David's biological progeny, his mother had to be David's
biological progeny too because Joseph was not involved in Mary's pregnancy. In
other words: Mary had to be Jesus' real mother so Jesus could be born David's seed
according to the flesh.

Had Adam been created with divine nature, then neither he nor Eve would've
played around with the forbidden fruit.

Several good points in this one. The only problem I really see is that no one is speaking to the carnal nature of man that was the condemnation passed upon all men because
of Adams transgression.
Jesus was born a man without a carnal mind otherwise He would have been considered a transgressor from the womb. And why is that? Because God was His Father, whom is not at
enmity with Himself so He could not pass a carnal mind to His offspring.
He did however obtain the carnal mind at Gethsemane when He became sin on our behalf as His prayers were those of self preservation showing His carnality which had never been
there before. He also needed to experience the carnal mind in order to be made entirely like unto us in all aspects, it never says He was made that way from the beginning, but did
experience all of it eventually,

I like the insertion of James 1:13 here in that if Jesus were God then He could have never been tempted, but He was, proving that He was not God.
after all God created evil so how could He be tempted by His own creation? On the other hand Jesus, the second Adam, man without the carnal mind, but still a man, could be and was.
There were only ever 2 men made or born outside the carnal mind they were Adam and Jesus, thus Romans 5 speaks to them and what they brought to mankind by their deeds.

I would argue that Adam was capable of disobeying God when His lust conceived even though He was made outside the carnal mind, and He proved it.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Several good points in this one. The only problem I really see is that no one is speaking to the carnal nature of man that was the condemnation passed upon all men because
of Adams transgression.

Did you read the OP?

 

[Beetow]

.

1 Corinthians 15:47 . .The first man is of the earth, earthy the second man is the
Lord from heaven.

Jesus' biological origin can be easily traced to David, and from thence all the way
back to Adam; so 1Cor 15:47 isn't saying Jesus is a different species of hominid like
as if he were a Cro-Magnon and all the rest of us were Neanderthals; so to speak.

Jesus is a crucial man relative to how Adam was a crucial man.

Before Jesus came along, Adam was the only man in biblical history whose conduct
effected all of his fellow men all at one time.

And then came Jesus. He became the second man in biblical history whose conduct
effected all of his fellow men all at one time.

The big difference is that Adam's effect was detrimental, whereas Jesus' effect is
beneficial.

A comparison between the two men's effects upon their fellow men is explained in
the fifth chapter of the letter to Romans beginning with verse 12 and continuing down
to verse 21.
_

 

[Luminary]

I have come across a belief in these forums that all men are firstborn with a "Divine nature" given to us when we take our first breath. I believe this idea is based on Hindu and Buddhist beliefs, but is not based on the words of God.

So the question is this "is man first born with a "sin nature" or not? As I would like to take the time to comment on this issue according to scripture. I absolutely believe man is born with a nature to sin. This sin nature was introduced into the world through Adams' sin; and by the "spirit" of he who is "in" the world also dwells in the "firstborn nature" of man, which is "flesh". Jesus said that which born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The word "flesh" in that verse denotes a beast like, earthly sin nature, that is separated from divine influence, and is therefore prone to sin and opposed to God. That is the "enmity" God spoke of in the beginning between the serpents seed and the woman's seed. God also said in Genesis 6:3 that His Spirit shall not always "strive" with man, for that he also is "flesh". Again, this shows the "enmity" between man's "first nature" which is "flesh" and God's Holy Spirit.

We are told in Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

This is what I believe Paul was also showing here in the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from "the law of sin and death". Paul is not talking about God's holy law here, but a "natural law" that we are all firstborn "under." Like the law of gravity, we are all first born under "this law of sin".

Paul also said in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were "made sinners", so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

And we are not made righteous until we are "born again" from above by God's Holy Spirit of promise, and are then "made free" from this first "sin nature".

There are 2 seeds, one corruptible the other incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23) just as there are "2 natures". The first is "earthy" and of the "flesh" and is also "carnally minded" which is "of" the "spirit" of this world, and is found "in" the first Adam after iniquity was found "in" man (Adam). The second seed is of the "Holy Spirit", and is of God, sent forth in "the seed" of Promise; even in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from heaven. We are told in 1 Corinthians 15:46 that which is "first is natural", and afterward (after being born again of the Spirit) that which is "spiritual." So we are not first born "holy", we are firstborn "sinners".

Here is an example of the first "nature" in Ephesians 2:3 “Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the "lusts of our flesh", fulfilling the "desires of the flesh" and of "the mind"; and were "by nature" the children of wrath, even as others.”

So we are first "natural born sinners".

Now some believe there is an age of accountability for children, but I believe the scriptures also prove this idea false. In Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” And also here in Psalm 58:3 “The wicked are "estranged from the womb": they go astray as soon as they
be born, speaking lies.” Also the Lord said in Genesis 8:21… for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; ….”

So that is some sound scriptural proof to confirm this point. But think about this; if man did not first have a "sin nature" from first being born of the "flesh" and also "carnally minded"; then why would man have to be “born again” and made a “new man” in Christ by way of the Holy Spirit?

The old man of sin must die, we must put to death the deeds of the flesh, and the body of sin must also be destroyed in us. And when this happens by the power of God in Jesus Christ, we then are also raised up a "new man" in Him and given a "new nature" and "new mind" by the Spirit of the Living God. We are then made new creatures in Christ, the old things pass away, and behold, all things become new.

Our hearts must be changed, the spirit of our minds must be renewed in Jesus Christ Ephesians 4:23 “And be renewed in "the spirit of your mind;"

You must be born again! Peace and God bless

Lol….Come now SotM….let us reason this together! Without judgment of Titles and labels… let the words speak for themselves…and let the Spirit give you the words too respond, if you so carry it, as you claim! (And quote)

Let’s start with this…as this is what started it all

Genesis 2
“This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LordGod made the earth and the heavens.
(What do the Heaven and the Earth symbolize?)

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LordGod had not sent rain(what does rain symbolize? ) on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams (what do the streams symbolize?) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

1. What is the Breath of Life?
2. Would it be considered Divine? Because it literally comes from God….
3. What does it mean to be Divine?

3a. Can you speak according to scripture, without chapter and verse?
(Not copy and pasting a commentary)
—Can you relay the Truths, concepts and principles that Scripture speaks too?

 

[Luminary]

The difference with Jesus was, He was firstborn of the Holy Spirit, and already with the Divine nature of God. In that way when tempted, He was able to resist all sin and overcome the world.

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

If Spirit is born of Spirit and flesh is born of flesh, then how could the Holy Spirit, conceive flesh?

If he came in the likeness of man, as to experience all that he does, that he may rein, then why would he be born with an advantage over us?

 

[Beetow]

Jesus' biological origin can be easily traced to David, and from thence all the way
back to Adam;

FAQ: If true that Christ is among Adam's biological progeny; then why wasn't he
born with the so-called fallen nature?

REPLY: It's believed by a pretty large percentage of modern Christians that the so
called fallen nature is inherited from one's biological father. Oh? From whence did
Eve get it?

She was constructed with material taken from Adam's body prior to the forbidden
fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after his wife was formed; then it was
impossible for Adam to pass the so-called fallen nature to her by means of heredity.
And the fruit itself was actually inert; proven by the fact that its chemistry had no
effect upon Eve when she tasted it.

Ruling out Adam, and ruling out the fruit; we're left with two alternatives: either
God did it to the woman or the Serpent did it. My money is on the Serpent, a.k.a.
the Devil (Rev 20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1
-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment that
Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it takes effect.
Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both immediately set to work
cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to cover up their pelvic areas.

So: even if Joseph had been baby Jesus' end-game biological father, the child
wouldn't have necessarily been born with the so-called fallen nature because it's
not passed on by one's biological father nor one's biological mother. It's obtained
from humanity's other father; the Devil-- ergo: protecting baby Jesus from the so
called fallen nature was just simply a matter of keeping the Devil's paws off him.
The rest of us are road kill.
_

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Not at all….

James 1:13​

​

King James Version​

​

​

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

So then Jesus WAS NEVER "tempted in every respect AS WE ARE. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

.

Jesus' biological origin can be easily traced to David, and from thence all the way
back to Adam; so 1Cor 15:47 isn't saying Jesus is a different species of hominid like
as if he were a Cro-Magnon and all the rest of us were Neanderthals; so to speak.

Jesus is a crucial man relative to how Adam was a crucial man.

Before Jesus came along, Adam was the only man in biblical history whose conduct
effected all of his fellow men all at one time.

And then came Jesus. He became the second man in biblical history whose conduct
effected all of his fellow men all at one time.

The big difference is that Adam's effect was detrimental, whereas Jesus' effect is
beneficial.

A comparison between the two men's effects upon their fellow men is explained in
the fifth chapter of the letter to Romans beginning with verse 12 and continuing down
to verse 21.
_

The “nature” in the man speaks of the “spirit” in the man, not the physical body.
I’m not talking about the physical body, but the “sin nature” verses the “Divine nature.”

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Lol….Come now SotM….let us reason this together! Without judgment of Titles and labels… let the words speak for themselves…and let the Spirit give you the words too respond, if you so carry it, as you claim! (And quote)

Let’s start with this…as this is what started it all

Genesis 2
“This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LordGod made the earth and the heavens.
(What do the Heaven and the Earth symbolize?)

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LordGod had not sent rain(what does rain symbolize? ) on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams (what do the streams symbolize?) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

1. What is the Breath of Life?
2. Would it be considered Divine? Because it literally comes from God….
3. What does it mean to be Divine?

3a. Can you speak according to scripture, without chapter and verse?
(Not copy and pasting a commentary)
—Can you relay the Truths, concepts and principles that Scripture speaks too?

John 1:1-12

King James Version

​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

God’s Word gave life to all things that live, but does that mean that every man that comes into the world is Divine in nature? No

If the world was divine in nature, those who are of the world would have received Jesus Christ. The reason being there is another nature working in the world that is of the serpent, that is the “sin nature” of the beast (serpent)that is found in all those who are firstborn of the “flesh”

The serpents desire became man’s desire when sin entered into the first man Adam.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

If Spirit is born of Spirit and flesh is born of flesh, then how could the Holy Spirit, conceive flesh?

God created “all things” by His Word

If he came in the likeness of man, as to experience all that he does, that he may rein, then why would he be born with an advantage over us?

Failure was not an option.

 

[Luminary]

John 1:1-12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

God’s Word gave life to all things that live, but does that mean that every man that comes into the world is Divine in nature? No

If the world was divine in nature, those who are of the world would have received Jesus Christ. The reason being there is another nature working in the world that is of the serpent, that is the “sin nature” of the beast (serpent)that is found in all those who are firstborn of the “flesh”

The serpents desire became man’s desire when sin entered into the first man Adam.

Can you please address the scripture (and questions) I provided, and take this bite by bite instead of shoving it all at one time?

Because John 1 connect to genesis 1 not 2.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Can you please address the scripture (and questions) I provided, and take this bite by bite instead of shoving it all at one time?

Because John 1 connect to genesis 1 not 2.

Can you please stay on topic. This thread is not about, what does this symbolize, or what does that symbolize.

 

[Samson2020]

Did you read the OP?

Sure did and I agree with you on this one.

Isaiah 48:8 Speaking to Israel of the flesh God says.............................for I knew that thou wouldst deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

No doubt that man is born with a sin nature. Like I said it is passed from father to child, the carnal mind, and it believes itself to be it's own God. The child is born with it.
With one exception Jesus who's Father was God.

 

[Curtis]

The "sinful" human nature is in man's flesh.

Gal 5:19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, (NLT)

This is also known and interpreted as the "works of the flesh"

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV)

The life of the flesh is in the blood. It was the contaminated blood that was passed down from generation to generation.

Because of one man's disobedience, many were made sinners. As Paul once said....

"I know within me that is in my flesh dwells no good thing." (Romans 7:18)

Jesus was uncontaminated because his blood came from his father not his mother.

The blood of children does not come from the mother, only the father.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

The word “flesh” in scripture does not always mean the outer skin, or body of man, as I showed earlier.

It also speaks of the “sin nature” and heart, mind, and the spirit working in man.

Romans 8:6-9​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are “in the flesh” cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

When Paul says “But ye are not in the flesh” he is not talking about the physical body, but the nature/ mind/ spirit of the old Adam “sin nature.”