Blinded, not able to really understand the bible??

[Samson2020]

In this verse (above) we are told that the free gift of justification by faith has 'come' upon all men, and that all men therefore may avail themselves of it.

If faith is also a gift from the Father then when may a man avail themselves of the justification purchased by the one righteous act? Considering that it is God that controls when one
will move from vessel to dishonor to vessel unto honor, in that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that sheweth mercy?
We can leave out those who died before the New Covenant in this discussion.

 

[Samson2020]

You aren't speaking in an understandable manner.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: HE THAT KNOWETH GOD HEARETH US; he that IS NOT OF GOD HEARETH NOT US. Hearby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[complete]

If faith is also a gift from the Father then when may a man avail themselves of the justification purchased by the one righteous act? Considering that it is God that controls when one
will move from vessel to dishonor to vessel unto honor, in that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that sheweth mercy?
We can leave out those who died before New Covenant in this discussion.

' But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on Him
that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.'
(Rom. 4:5)

'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Rom.10:17)

Hello @Samson2020,

Will you please give me the Scriptures you are basing your argument upon, so that I can reason from Scripture rather than lean to my own understanding in my response.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Samson2020]

Hello @Samson2020,

Will you please give me the Scriptures you are basing your argument upon, so that I can reason from Scripture rather than lean to my own understanding in my response.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Romans 9:16 "So then it is NOT of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy."

Romans 9:18 "So then, to whom He will He shews mercy, and whom He will He hardens."

 

[God's Truth]

1 John 4:6 We are of God: HE THAT KNOWETH GOD HEARETH US; he that IS NOT OF GOD HEARETH NOT US. Hearby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

You aren't speaking God's truth that is why you aren't listened to and believed.

 

[complete]

If faith is also a gift from the Father then when may a man avail themselves of the justification purchased by the one righteous act? Considering that it is God that controls when one
will move from vessel to dishonor to vessel unto honor, in that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that sheweth mercy?
We can leave out those who died before the New Covenant in this discussion.

'For by grace are ye saved
through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works,
lest any man should boast.'
(Eph 2:8-9)

Hello again, @Samson2020,

I believe that the verse above is one of the verses which is the basis for your thoughts expressed in your post (above). Yes?

Faith is the medium through which we are saved, and grace is the cause, 'it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure'. (Romans 4:16). Grace imparts, faith receives.

The fact that the word, 'faith', is followed immediately by the word, 'that', has led some to teach from this passage that 'faith is the gift of God'. There is such a thing as 'faith, the gift of God', but it is a special gift to one who is already a believer (1 Corinthians 12:9):-

'But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; ... ... ... '
(1 Cor. 12:7-11)

It is SALVATION which is the gift of God, and not faith which is simply the medium by which it is received. It is grace by faith salvation that we have received by the mercy of God. Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[God's Truth]

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

That scripture is about no one having to work at purifying themselves anymore.

It means no one works by doing these things:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.

Romans 9:16 "So then it is NOT of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy."

That scripture is about Paul explaining why God let the Gentiles get saved too, even though they never did those purification works.

Romans 9:18 "So then, to whom He will He shews mercy, and whom He will He hardens."

That is Paul explaining why God hardened some Jews while Jesus walked the earth and why the enemy Gentiles get to be saved when they didn't do any of the purification works.

 

[Samson2020]

It is grace by faith salvation that we have received by the mercy of God.

We can use that now use it to answer the initial question. Which was

If faith is also a gift from the Father then when may a man avail themselves of the justification purchased by the one righteous act? Considering that it is God that controls when one
will move from vessel to dishonor to vessel unto honor, in that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that sheweth mercy?
We can leave out those who died before the New Covenant in this discussion.

In light of-

Romans 9:16 "So then it is NOT of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy."

Romans 9:18 "So then, to whom He will He shews mercy, and whom He will He hardens."

Do these verses NOT imply that one must receive faith through grace in order to believe, thus God decides when one receives mercy vs being hardened?
And your initial post:

' Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.'

'That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness
unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.'

we are told that the free gift of justification by faith has 'come' upon all men, and that all men therefore may avail themselves of it.

How do they avail themselves unless grace is dispensed in the form of faith to believe, seeing God controls mercy and hardening?
And if the FREE GIFT of justification unto life came upon ALL men, when would you expect that to occur in light of the previous sentence?

 

[complete]

We can use that now use it to answer the initial question. Which was

In light of-

Do these verses NOT imply that one must receive faith through grace in order to believe, thus God decides when one receives mercy vs being hardened?
And your initial post:



How do they avail themselves unless grace is dispensed in the form of faith to believe, seeing God controls mercy and hardening?
And if the FREE GIFT of justification unto life came upon ALL men, when would you expect that to occur in light of the previous sentence?

Hello @Samson2020,

My thoughts on this were expressed in reply #127, although I did not address the verses from Romans 9:16 & 18 that you referenced:-

' So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,
that I might shew My power in thee,
and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy,
and whom He will He hardeneth.'
(Rom 9:16-18)

* I have to go off-line now, but will come back and address this when I can.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

@Samson2020 said in reply #127:-

It is grace by faith salvation that we have received by the mercy of God.

We can use that now use it to answer the initial question. Which was

If faith is also a gift from the Father then when may a man avail themselves of the justification purchased by the one righteous act? Considering that it is God that controls when one
will move from vessel to dishonor to vessel unto honor, in that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that sheweth mercy?
We can leave out those who died before the New Covenant in this discussion.

In light of-

Romans 9:16 "So then it is NOT of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy."
Romans 9:18 "So then, to whom He will He shews mercy, and whom He will He hardens."

Do these verses NOT imply that one must receive faith through grace in order to believe, thus God decides when one receives mercy vs being hardened?
And your initial post:

' Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.'

'That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness
unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.'

we are told that the free gift of justification by faith has 'come' upon all men, and that all men therefore may avail themselves of it.

How do they avail themselves unless grace is dispensed in the form of faith to believe, seeing God controls mercy and hardening?
And if the FREE GIFT of justification unto life came upon ALL men, when would you expect that to occur in light of the previous sentence?

Hello @Samson2020,

My thoughts on this were expressed in reply #127, although I did not address the verses from Romans 9:16 & 18 that you referenced:-

' So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,
that I might shew My power in thee,
and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy,
and whom He will He hardeneth.'
(Rom 9:16-18)

* I have to go off-line now, but will come back and address this when I can.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

'What shall we say then?
Is there unrighteousness with God?
God forbid.'
(Rom 9:14)

Hello again @Samson2020,

Looking at the two verses you highlighted from Romans nine: it is important to remember that Paul is responding to a question, posed by himself as a possible objection from the Jews among whom he wrote, as to what could be deemed as the unrighteousness of God in His choice of an elect remnant out of Israel, instead of the salvation of the nation as a whole at that time. See Romans 9:14 (above).

Paul is establishing God's sovereignty in Romans 9:14-29, and His right to make Divine choices, based on His Own will, and purpose at that time, concluding that it is all down to God's mercy, 'He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy'. It is contrary to the 'quality of mercy' to bring in the question of righteousness at all, seeing that 'all' have sinned, both Jew and Gentile, and that all alike are subject to judgment. No man has any claim upon God. Yes?

So those two Scriptures that you highlight, do not imply that God has to supply us with faith in order for us to receive of His grace. For faith is merely the medium by which grace is received, and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). That is why John tells us in John 20:31 that what He had written had one object, and that was that they may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing may have life through His Name. It is the entrance of God's Word that brings light, and engenders the faith to believe what is written.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head,
Now risen and glorified
at God's right hand.
Chris

 

[Samson2020]

His right to make Divine choices, based on His Own will, and purpose at that time, concluding that it is all down to God's mercy, 'He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy'.

So those two Scriptures that you highlight, do not imply that God has to supply us with faith in order for us to receive of His grace. For faith is merely the medium by which grace is received, and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God

2 Thess 3:2 ...............for all men have not faith.

If some, most, have not faith, WHY? If ye are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God. The it has to be FAITH as you cannot supply
yourself with either, and grace is unmerited favor from the Father. The unmerited favor is the faith He gives.

When the Father has mercy on a soul He gives them faith to believe thus they are the elect, without faith one cannot believe, it's that simple.
And as you noted in the upper post "concluding that it is all down to God's mercy" you have it right, but still fight against the idea that one does not choose Him, He chooses them
through the supplying of faith.
However, that is not what I was going after, this is milk and I was after teeth worth understanding but it will have to wait.

 

[complete]

2 Thess 3:2 ...............for all men have not faith.

If some, most, have not faith, WHY? If ye are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God. The it has to be FAITH as you cannot supply
yourself with either, and grace is unmerited favor from the Father. The unmerited favor is the faith He gives.

When the Father has mercy on a soul He gives them faith to believe thus they are the elect, without faith one cannot believe, it's that simple.
And as you noted in the upper post "concluding that it is all down to God's mercy" you have it right, but still fight against the idea that one does not choose Him, He chooses them
through the supplying of faith.
However, that is not what I was going after, this is milk and I was after teeth worth understanding but it will have to wait.

Hello @Samson2020,

The context of Romans 9 is vital to our understanding of the verses you refer to, may God give you light.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

If some, most, have not faith, WHY? If ye are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God. The it has to be FAITH as you cannot supply
yourself with either, and grace is unmerited favor from the Father. The unmerited favor is the faith He gives.

That is one opinion.

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Then again, it's possible grace and salvation are the gifts. You just receive them through faith.

 

[Samson2020]

You just receive them through faith.

And since not all men have faith, who is it up to to supply the faith necessary to believe unto salvation?

 

[complete]

' That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead,
Thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith,
Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

'How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
as it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace,
and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel.
For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard?
Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth,
and their words unto the ends of the world.
But I say, Did not Israel know?
First Moses saith,
I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,
and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Esaias is very bold, and saith,
I was found of them that sought me not;
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel He saith,
All day long I have stretched forth My hands
unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.'
(Rom 10:10-21)

* The gospel is available to all, but not all will obey it. Not all will believe God.

 

[God's Truth]

No one receives personal love and understanding from God unless they obey Jesus.

And Jesus says more to do than just believe.

 

[B-A-C]

And since not all men have faith, who is it up to to supply the faith necessary to believe unto salvation?

I suppose it comes to which Bible translation you have.

2 Thessalonians 3:2
(NIrV) And pray that we will be saved from sinful and evil people. Not everyone is a believer.
(MKJV) And pray that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for all do not have the faith.
(NLT) Pray, too, that we will be rescued from wicked and evil people, for not everyone is a believer.
(TPT) And pray that God will rescue us from wicked and evil people, for not everyone believes the message.

Romans 12:3
(AMPC) For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
(ASV) For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but so to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.
(ESV) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
(KJV) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
(MKJV) For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
(NAS77) For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
(NAS95) For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
(NIrV) God's grace has been given to me. So here is what I say to every one of you. Don't think of yourself more highly than you should. Be reasonable when you think about yourself. Keep in mind the amount of faith God has given you.
(NIV) For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
(NLT) Because of the privilege and authority God has given me, I give each of you this warning: Don’t think you are better than you really are. Be honest in your evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given us.
(TPT) God has given me grace to speak a warning about pride. I would ask each of you to be emptied of self-promotion and not create a false image of your importance. Instead, honestly assess your worth by using your God-given faith as the standard of measurement, and then you will see your true value with an appropriate self-esteem.

 

[Samson2020]

Hello @Samson2020,

The context of Romans 9 is vital to our understanding of the verses you refer to, may God give you light.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but O man who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

The entirety of Romans 9 is about Gods choice for each individual as the above verses define.

* The gospel is available to all, but not all will obey it. Not all will believe God.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full
number of the Gentiles has come in,

Who hardens?

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but O man who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

The entirety of Romans 9 is about Gods choice for each individual as the above verses define.


Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full
number of the Gentiles has come in,

Who hardens?

God only hardened their hearts while Jesus had his earthly ministry.

 

[God's Truth]

God loves those who love Him by obeying.

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me,

1 Samuel 2:30 "Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.'But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

Psalm 91:14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Psalm 145:20 The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.