Where are we in the Book of Revelation??
- Thread starter DieAmartyr
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Hitch
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Paul quotes this passage :
1As God’s fellow workers,a then, we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2For He says:
“In the time of favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”b
Behold, now is the time of favor; now is the day of salvation!
3We put no obstacle in anyone’s way, so that no one can discredit our ministry.
What gives you the authority to circumvent Paul?
Revelation is a overview of all time. The things present, the things behind and the thing ahead .
Jesus does not desire we look for signs to wonder after rather than walking by faith. . the unseen . He will come like a thief in the night on the last day under the sun .(The end of time) He does not give the year day or hour .
B-A-C
Loyal
But He does offer "signs" to look for.
Matt 24:3; As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Matt 24:4; And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
Matt 24:5; "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Matt 24:6; "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
Matt 24:7; "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
Matt 24:8; "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Matt 24:9; "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Matt 24:11; "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt 24:12; "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Matt 24:13; "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matt 24:14; "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
You could possibly say all of this has already happened, and has been happening for centuries. Except... for verse 14. It simply hasn't hasn't happened yet. But it's getting close.
Matt 24:15; "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt 24:16; then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Matt 24:17; "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt 24:18; "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Matt 24:19; "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt 24:20; "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:23; "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:25; "Behold, I have told you in advance.
Matt 24:26; "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
Matt 24:27; "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:28; "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Some people believe a lot of this happened in 70ad, with the destruction of Jerusalem. However there have been much worse tribulations since 70ad ( the Holocaust of WWII for example )
The Population of Jerusalem in the first century, was approx 600,000 ( depending on your source ) Demographic history of Jerusalem - Wikipedia
No one knows for sure how many Jews were killed, estimates range from as few as a 20,000 to nearly 100,000. But for sake of argument, let us say all the Jews were killed, all 600,000.
That is nothng compared to the 7million killed in WWII. Finally it mentions Jesus returning here, like lightning... it hasn't happened yet. Jesus hasn't returned yet.
Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
The trumpet hasn't sounded yet, the rapture hasn't happened yet, and in fact the "great tribulation" hasn't happened yet.
Matt 24:36; "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Matt 24:37; "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Matt 24:38; "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Matt 24:39; and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:40; "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43; "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Matt 24:44; "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Matt 24:45; "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 24:46; "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
This passage is also in Luke.. The disciples ask about signs.
Luke 21:7; They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?"
Luke 21:8; And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.
Luke 21:9; "When you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately."
Jesus says there will be signs to look for.
Luke 21:10; Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,
Luke 21:11; and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
Luke 21:12; "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
Luke 21:33; "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Heaven and the Earth have not "passed away" yet either. The new Heavens and New Earth aren't here yet.
Hitch
Active
att 24:14; "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
You could possibly say all of this has already happened, and has been happening for centuries. Except... for verse 14. It simply hasn't hasn't happened yet. But it's getting close.
8 First, pI thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, qbecause your faith is proclaimed in all the world.
5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grac
8 For not only has the word of the Lord usounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth veverywhere, so that we need not say anything.
If indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I Paul was made a
minister.
It s always a gas to see how the DF will selectively insist on literalism in one place and trip over it (M24;34) in the next.
Hitch
Active
Heaven and the Earth have not "passed away" yet either. The new Heavens and New Earth aren't here yet.
Hmmmm So all things remain as they were before Christ arrived ? Obviously if literalism must be applied all we must do is look out the window, but the should that same standard apply to :
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Will you dare to declare this has yet to happen as well ?
Hmmmm So all things remain as they were before Christ arrived ? Obviously if literalism must be applied all we must do is look out the window, but the should that same standard apply to :
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Will you dare to declare this has yet to happen as well ?
Thanks for the reply makes a great study .
I hear that a little differently
Jesus said its a evil generation, natural unconverted mankind that seeks after signs and wonders , wonderings no end to faith or belief, no testimony .Prophecy is of no value to them.
One thing I have noticed is its not just sign but sign with wonders looking for end or fulfillment .The last sign and wonder was given to Jonah fulfilled by the Son of man Jesus . Jesus said no more sign will be given as wonders .
Remember even though God is no longer bringing and new revelation after any manner and writing down. Now that we have the complete written law, the bible sealed with 7 seals till the end of time . Satan is still lose having all power as the god of this corrupted world with powerful lying signs as wonders . I would be careful in that way as to how we hear or say we hear Christ's interpretation working in us .
Mathew 24: 23-26 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Behold, I have told you before. They were warned before that the written law the Book of prophecy came to a end
The revealing of the sign and wonder author the father of lies begin with the warning from Mathew 24 above ( told you before)
2 Thessalonians 2:6-15 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
I would offer Mathew 24 is simply "signs of the times" history repeating itself . There was no idea of wondering given . We walk by faith God does not give us the an exact year, hour or minute He desires we walk by faith trusting his unseen holy presence. On the last day he will leave like a thief in the night. We have the responsibility as a privilege to watch and pray like Noah but he will depart like a thief in the might
B-A-C
Loyal
Absolutely!
Hitch
Active
Care to explain the meaning then ?
2 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
amila
Member
Thanks Garee,
Of course there is no desire to wonder here its about sufferings and of course when you walk with faith I agree.. And .Jesus is a wonder himself(in a positive way)..
Yes (in a positive way lifted up way). Don't marvel two long a person might miss what he is saying .
The angles in that verse represent the born again believers . Messenger would of been a better choice . Innumerable company of angels. help us to walk by faith God does not number the 144, 000 a metaphor used in a parable to represent innumerable company of born again saints .
Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem prepared for his bride the church
Hitch
Active
complete
Loyal
'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,'
(Heb 12:22)
Hello there, @Hitch,
This church is the church of the firstborn, a special company. Here in Hebrews 12 we are given a glimpse into the future, when this church of the firstborn shall be complete and enter into its inheritance and become the Bride, the Lamb's wife. Abraham 'looked' for it, Moses will also receive that reward unto which he had 'respect' (Hebrews 11:26): all who believed, yet died, not having received the promise, will enter into their birthright. 'God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city' (Hebrews 11:16).
In Christ Jesus
Chris
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,'
(Heb 12:22)
Hello there, @Hitch,
This church is the church of the firstborn, a special company. Here in Hebrews 12 we are given a glimpse into the future, when this church of the firstborn shall be complete and enter into its inheritance and become the Bride, the Lamb's wife. Abraham 'looked' for it, Moses will also receive that reward unto which he had 'respect' (Hebrews 11:26): all who believed, yet died, not having received the promise, will enter into their birthright. 'God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city' (Hebrews 11:16).
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hitch
Active
Odd then it was written in the past tense, and 'ye' refers to the first century audience.
Of course as DF you must maintain that the church is not to be found in the prophets. Despite the simple fact that the very notion is contrary to all NT teaching and especially this particular work. That prepared city is only the church , the place only Christ could prepare, by His own sacrifice. The 'place' is the presence of God , which we have access to through Christ who came to reconcile men to fellowship. Once again in direct conflict with DF that teaches Christ came to set up a geo-political kingdom. Christ arrived to set up the prophesied Messianic kingdom and was perfectly successful . The church , men redeemed by the blood of Christ , was and is central to God's dealing in history, it is the point of history. The dispensational notion that the cross and the church were some secondary plan is blasphemous. Christ's overall purpose was never anything but to destroy the works of the Devil by winning back more than Adam lost in the fall, a victory that cost everything. Jesus proclaimed the 'finished' . This is what Abe and Moshe looked forward to. Not a room in a cubical building. Rather a 'place' in the cubical Hoy of Holies, Christ Jesus.
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Hitch
Active
Hmmm the idea is to make it EASIER so who said what is not confused. So I'll try and figure something out,Hello @Hitch,
The use of certain colours can make it difficult for those of us who have chosen a dark background to see the lettering of what you have used that colour on, so that reading your posts is made difficult.
complete
Loyal
Hi @Hitch,
What is the meaning of DF please? (D = dispensationalist: but 'F' ?) I told you that I am dispensational in my understanding of Scripture, so I have no problem with that.
The church referred to in the Scripture reference you gave from the book of Hebrews is found in the prophets. The only truth that is not the subject of the Old Testament prophets, is that expounded by Paul in the epistles that he wrote from his imprisonment in Rome, for that truth had been 'hid in God' since the world began ( Ephesians 3:8 & Colossians 1:26 ): which concerns the fellowship of the Mystery, which is 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'. I am not familiar with any of your subsequent contentions I'm afraid.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hitch
Active
Dispensational Futurist ... Its nice to know for certain that despite your claim to the contrary you do not hold to ,at least some of, DF doctrine.
That the church is absent in the prophets is the basis for the ' Parenthetical Church Age' doctrine that allows for the sudden end of the church on earth and the return to Judaism, complete with bloody sacrifices. These are the same folks who try to make Paul's 'mystery' into entire time of the church, when in reality the mystery was the glorious inclusion of the Gentiles into the commonwealth, through Christ. Un witting you have given away the farm. If the church is foreseen in the prophets a major pillar of the DF edifice is shown to be rotted.
Rest assured Im not the least surprised you might not know some of these things, but I can document them if necessary.