Resurrection

[Hitch]

I've taken the liberty to edit your comment just a little for a contrast.

"For the vast majority 'eternal life' comes well before the immortal state."

In other words: eternal life and immortality are not synonyms. For example: Jesus
had eternal life prior to his crucifixion (John 5:26 & 1John 1:1-2) but he didn't have
immortality until after he rose from the dead. (Rom 6:9)

It's not unusual to encounter ordinary-looking folk on a daily basis and be unaware
they have eternal life.

• John 3:8 . . The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of
the Spirit.
_

Fair enough. Eternal life is granted before the death of the body, while the eternal state waits for the resurrection on the 'last day'.

 

[Hitch]

Is it? Where does Scripture say it's not physical life? Could it be as Paul says, believers have a down payment on their inheritance? Consider a kid with a trust fund. Is he a millionaire? Yes. Does he possess that money? No. He has the promise of that money when certrain conditions are met.

How can Jesus say in one place a person has eternal life and in another say that eternal life is possessed in the age to come? We have to reconcile these passages. So, how could someone have eternal life now and yet get it in the coming age? The trust fund scenario I mentioned explains this. It also fits with the rest of Scripture. Paul said the Ephesians had the promise of the inheritance. He also said believers have the promise of life to come. All of this fits with the trust fund idea.

If we're going to claim it's something other than physical life we have to establish that such a thing is possible.

I think Beetow has it right but made a poor choice of words. ' : eternal life isn't physical; it's supernatural.' I reckon eternal life is not natural ,its supernatural, works better, but the idea remains the same . God thinks our physical bodies are important enough to resurrect them from whatever they become but the life there if from the spirit not the blood. For example between you me and Moses, I have no doubt Moses is today more alive than both of us, even while he waits for the resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

By resting on the Word of God AKA Jesus Christ



I cant see how to make it any clearer Butch.

That doesn't explain how it's possible.

But, you're ignoring other passages. Jesus said that people will get eternal life in the age to come. We can't ignore that passage and choose one that fits what we want to believe. We have to take the totality of Scripture on the subject and reconcile it.

So, how do you reconcile those passsges?

 

[Hitch]

That doesn't explain how it's possible.

But, you're ignoring other passages. Jesus said that people will get eternal life in the age to come. We can't ignore that passage and choose one that fits what we want to believe. We have to take the totality of Scripture on the subject and reconcile it.

So, how do you reconcile those passsges?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Where in this passage do you have trouble ?

 

[Butch5]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Where in this passage do you have trouble ?

I'm aware of that passage. However, as I pointed out, Jesus also said that eternal life is given in the age to come. How do you reconcile the two?

 

[Hitch]

I'm aware of that passage. However, as I pointed out, Jesus also said that eternal life is given in the age to come. How do you reconcile the two?

They cant be reconciled because there is no conflict, there just isnt any problem.

 

[Butch5]

They cant be reconciled because there is no conflict, there just isnt any problem.

Come on, let's be real and address the problem.

So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
(Mk. 10:29-30 NKJ)

 

[Hitch]

Come on, let's be real and address the problem.

So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
(Mk. 10:29-30 NKJ)

Have you ever taken a minute to wonder why you're the only one having trouble here? That passage is full of the best news possible dont let anyone rob you. . the simple meaning is there are expected temporal rewards and eternal rewards, its not conflicted in any way.

 

[Butch5]

Have you ever taken a minute to wonder why you're the only one having trouble here? That passage is full of the best news possible dont let anyone rob you. . the simple meaning is there are expected temporal rewards and eternal rewards, its not conflicted in any way.

Actually, I'm not having trouble. It's not me that's ignoring Scripture. I accept both passages. It seems to me you only accept one.

 

[Hitch]

Have you ever taken a minute to wonder why you're the only one having trouble here? That passage is full of the best news possible dont let anyone rob you. . the simple meaning is there are expected temporal rewards and eternal rewards, its not conflicted in any way.

So you're drivin to Canada eh ?? You'll have a nice time and you'll have a drivers license then too.

This doesnt mean you lack the document now

 

[Hitch]

Actually, I'm not having trouble. It's not me that's ignoring Scripture. I accept both passages. It seems to me you only accept one.

OK

 

[Beetow]

Note the grammatical tense of the statement below; it's present tense rather than
future, indicating that when people correctly eat and drink the Lord's flesh and
blood, they obtain eternal life immediately-- no delay and no waiting period.

• John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

FAQ: If Christians have eternal life, then why do they get old and die just like
everybody else?

A: Because eternal life isn't the same as immortality.

The life that God breathed into Adam back in the beginning wasn't eternal life; it
was just plain ol' down-to-earth human life. Well; God must've been satisfied with
human life in the beginning because looking back over His handiwork He evaluated
it not just good, but very good.

But human life isn't ideal; it's susceptible to corruption-- the Serpent proved that
much. Well eternal life is far and away superior to human life because it's 110%
impervious to corruption

• Jas 1:13 . . God cannot be tempted with evil

• Titus 1:2 . . God cannot lie

According to Rev 21:8 and Rev 22:15 folks prone to dishonesty are destined for an
unpleasant exile so it's not all that difficult to understand just how crucial it is that folks
obtain eternal life as soon as possible so that when they pass away, they leave here as
110% honest folk and thus avoid ending up on the wrong side of things when it comes
time for their resurrection.
_

 

[Butch5]

Note the grammatical tense of the statement below; it's present tense rather than
future, indicating that when people correctly eat and drink the Lord's flesh and
blood, they obtain eternal life immediately-- no delay and no waiting period.

• John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

FAQ: If Christians have eternal life, then why do they get old and die just like
everybody else?

A: Because eternal life isn't the same as immortality.

The life that God breathed into Adam back in the beginning wasn't eternal life; it
was just plain ol' down-to-earth human life. Well; God must've been satisfied with
human life in the beginning because looking back over His handiwork He evaluated
it not just good, but very good.

But human life isn't ideal; it's susceptible to corruption-- the Serpent proved that
much. Well eternal life is far and away superior to human life because it's 110%
impervious to corruption

• Jas 1:13 . . God cannot be tempted with evil

• Titus 1:2 . . God cannot lie

According to Rev 21:8 and Rev 22:15 folks prone to dishonesty are destined for an
unpleasant exile so it's not all that difficult to understand just how crucial it is that folks
obtain eternal life as soon as possible so that when they pass away, they leave here as
110% honest folk and thus avoid ending up on the wrong side of things when it comes
time for their resurrection.
_

All Adam had to do to live forever was to eat of the Tree of Life. So whatever he had it could be eternal. That shows us that eternal life is physical life. It was that simple, just eat of the tree. Until he was barred from the Garden he had access to eternal life. So, how does one get eternal life in the future? Jesus said in Revelation that whoever overcomes He will give to eat if the Tree of Life which is in the Paradise (Garden of Eden) of God. So, in the end we see the same thing we saw in the beginning. That's Gods whole plan, to restore all things to the state they were in in the beginning. Thus, eternal life is living in the flesh with access to the Tree of Life.

So why then does Jesus use the present tense? It's because of the ppromise.Paul said that God calls those things that aren't as though they were.


(as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

Remember Jesus said the words He spoke were the Father's. Paul said this referring to the promise God made to Abraham. So again, we see this same thing with another promise, the promise of life.

You've claimed it's something else but haven't established that from Scriputre. We can see people alive walking around. We know that is life. To claim it's something different would need to be established from Scripture.

 

[Beetow]

.
The tree of life wasn't created as a source of life, rather, as an Rx, viz: a medicinal
remedy for whatever ails you (Rev 22:1-2). For example: when Adam tasted the
forbidden fruit, his body lost its perpetual youth and began to age. The tree's
chemistry would've restored him to perfect health.

I sometimes encounter Christians talking about people suffering in Hell forever as if
folks down there have eternal life, No, they don't have eternal life; they have
human life; which is a kind of life vastly inferior to eternal life. Human life is
corruptible whereas eternal life isn't.

• Jas 1:13 . . God cannot be tempted with evil

• Titus 1:2 . . God cannot lie
_

 

[Butch5]

.
The tree of life wasn't created as a source of life, rather, as an Rx, viz: a medicinal
remedy for whatever ails you (Rev 22:1-2). For example: when Adam tasted the
forbidden fruit, his body lost its perpetual youth and began to age. The tree's
chemistry would've restored him to perfect health.

I sometimes encounter Christians talking about people suffering in Hell forever as if
folks down there have eternal life, No, they don't have eternal life; they have
human life; which is a kind of life vastly inferior to eternal life. Human life is
corruptible whereas eternal life isn't.

• Jas 1:13 . . God cannot be tempted with evil

• Titus 1:2 . . God cannot lie
_

That's all speculation. I don't think you can prove any of that from Scripture

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5

Greetings Butch5,

there may be some crossed wires happening here?

I don't think what you are trying to convey and discuss is being understood.

Another thought might be like some people being told they have been conscripted. They are as-good-as soldiers and off to battle (war) but at conscription are still in their pyjamas or whatever.

Or, perhaps, like people being informed that they have access to travel (fitting for this day of the vax) but that the borders opening and flights won't be for another several months.

They have notification and can start/begin living accordingly to the 'news' of their position granted but until that day, have not yet entered in to the reality, as such. They can be, and live, assuredly that that is who they are and can even 'fellowship' with others of the same rank or call. It is a reality for them even though they have not left yet and the 'history' of it is still 'future'.

We are supposed to be living as new creation, as being made new... now. According to the faith we never had, which we are now persuaded of, we are already His by the redemption and purchasing by His Blood, and the will and promise of God the Father.

Do we have something to look forward to? I submit that we don't and yet we do. If we can not look forward, there is no faith but at the same time, because of faith, we can (and should) live as those seated with Him. We can overcome because of who we are in Christ.

If i have missed something about the point you have been trying to get across, please let me know, Brother.

Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Greetings Butch5,

there may be some crossed wires happening here?

I don't think what you are trying to convey and discuss is being understood.

Another thought might be like some people being told they have been conscripted. They are as-good-as soldiers and off to battle (war) but at conscription are still in their pyjamas or whatever.

Or, perhaps, like people being informed that they have access to travel (fitting for this day of the vax) but that the borders opening and flights won't be for another several months.

They have notification and can start/begin living accordingly to the 'news' of their position granted but until that day, have not yet entered in to the reality, as such. They can be, and live, assuredly that that is who they are and can even 'fellowship' with others of the same rank or call. It is a reality for them even though they have not left yet and the 'history' of it is still 'future'.

We are supposed to be living as new creation, as being made new... now. According to the faith we never had, which we are now persuaded of, we are already His by the redemption and purchasing by His Blood, and the will and promise of God the Father.

Do we have something to look forward to? I submit that we don't and yet we do. If we can not look forward, there is no faith but at the same time, because of faith, we can (and should) live as those seated with Him. We can overcome because of who we are in Christ.

If i have missed something about the point you have been trying to get across, please let me know, Brother.

Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br. Bear,

You pretty much nailmoney. Thanks! That is the idea I was trying to get across with the trust fund concept. The child is a millionaire even though he doesn't currently possess the money. He has promise of the momey.

 

[Beetow]

In posts No.72 and No.74, I associated eternal life with God thusly:

• Jas 1:13 . . God cannot be tempted with evil

• Titus 1:2 . . God cannot lie

I was created with human nature; so it's very easy to tempt me with evil-- and
dishonesty in one form or another is my way of life, viz: I have a natural proclivity
for white lies, bald-faced lies, deceit, dissembling, equivocation, exaggeration,
slander, prevarication, false impressions, omitting facts, cover-ups, and pretense;
etc.

About 50+ years ago I reasoned that were I to be somehow disconnected from
human nature and then endowed with the nature of God, then I too would be
impervious to temptation same as He; and I too would be impervious to dishonesty
same as He, viz: my normal proclivity would be honesty instead of dishonesty, and
temptation would bounce off me like a golf ball thrown at a Russian tank, viz: I
would be completely indifferent to evil.

Not long afterwards I discovered that the nature of God is available.

"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through
our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these
He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you
may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused
by evil desires." (2Pet 1:3-4)
_