Resurrection

[Butch5]

'Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that heareth My word,
and believeth on Him that sent Me,
hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
The hour is coming, and now is,
when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:
and they that hear shall live.'
(John 5:24-25)

Hello @Hitch,

As @Butch5 says of Matthew 8:22, ' ... let the dead bury their dead ... ': it is a figure of speech (but not a metaphor), in which the former word, 'dead' refers to the spiritually dead, and the latter refers to those who have departed this mortal life.

* Matthew 5:25 (above) is also a figure of speech, in which the second part of the verse affirms the first part:-

'Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that heareth My word,
and believeth on Him that sent Me,
hath everlasting life,'

'and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life.'

* The believer has received the promise of everlasting life which is in Christ Jesus (Titus 1:1), so he will not come into condemnation in the judgment of the last day, but is passed from death unto life, at the resurrection from the dead.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree with you except for this statement. " it is a figure of speech (but not a metaphor), in which the former word, 'dead' refers to the spiritually dead, and the latter refers to those who have departed this mortal life." I don't believe the first occurrence of dead refers to "spiritually dead". There is no such concept found anywhere in Scripture. They're said to be dead because of their position. If they were to believe they would be said to be alive or have life. It's simply a way of noting an unbeliever.

 

[Hitch]

Dying a second time.

Good luck finding a teacher or commentator that agrees.

 

[Butch5]

Good luck finding a teacher or commentator that agrees.

I know people who agree with me. I'm not worried that some don't. All we have to do is look at what it says. It's called the "second" death. What is the second? It's another of the first kind. If have a second hammer, it is like my first hammer. A screw driver is not a second hammer. A wrench is not a second hammer. In order for it to be a second one, it has to be like the first. Many claim that the second death is living for eternity in fire. How is living a second death? It's not like the first one. It's not even death. To die bodily, a second time, is a second death. It's like the first one.

The problem is that we have 2000 years of baggage that's been added to the faith. Much of it is still around today. This whole idea that man can live on after death as a spirit and/or soul is from Greek philosophy. It's not from the Bible. What happens is that many, if not most, people who become Christians are taught or influenced by other Christians before they become Christians. So, they are given a set of presuppositions from which to view the Bible long before they ever study the Bible. This is how the errors continue. How often do we hear, you need to believe in Jesus so you can go to Heaven and not burn for eternity in hell? Right there we have several presuppositions. One, people are going to Heaven. Two, people are going to burn in hell forever. Three, people are going to live eternally. Right there a perspective Christian is given three presuppositions before they even become Christians. So, if they become Christians they start out with these three presuppositions. Are they correct? If not ,those Christians are starting off on the wrong foot and the ones who preached it to them are wrong.

 

[Hitch]

I know people who agree with me. I'm not worried that some don't. All we have to do is look at what it says. It's called the "second" death. What is the second? It's another of the first kind. If have a second hammer, it is like my first hammer. A screw driver is not a second hammer. A wrench is not a second hammer. In order for it to be a second one, it has to be like the first. Many claim that the second death is living for eternity in fire. How is living a second death? It's not like the first one. It's not even death. To die bodily, a second time, is a second death. It's like the first one.

The problem is that we have 2000 years of baggage that's been added to the faith. Much of it is still around today. This whole idea that man can live on after death as a spirit and/or soul is from Greek philosophy. It's not from the Bible. What happens is that many, if not most, people who become Christians are taught or influenced by other Christians before they become Christians. So, they are given a set of presuppositions from which to view the Bible long before they ever study the Bible. This is how the errors continue. How often do we hear, you need to believe in Jesus so you can go to Heaven and not burn for eternity in hell? Right there we have several presuppositions. One, people are going to Heaven. Two, people are going to burn in hell forever. Three, people are going to live eternally. Right there a perspective Christian is given three presuppositions before they even become Christians. So, if they become Christians they start out with these three presuppositions. Are they correct? If not ,those Christians are starting off on the wrong foot and the ones who preached it to them are wrong.

Do you regularly attend church ?

 

[Butch5]

Do you regularly attend church ?

Not sure how that bears on the conversation.

 

[Hitch]

Not sure how that bears on the conversation.

Your sound off had an interesting tone, Im curious regarding the origin of your ideas. Would I be correct thinking you are anti-Trinitarian ?

 

[Butch5]

Your sound off had an interesting tone, Im curious regarding the origin of your ideas.

It doesn't come from a church. It comes from a study of the early faith. To make a long story short, years ago I had attended different churches and was "taught" opposing doctrines from a Bible that the churches told me was infallible. Well, that presented a problem. If the Bible is infallible, I believe the original writings were, then that means at least one of these churches is teaching errors. You can't have an infallible Bible and have opposing doctrines. Someone was wrong. So, I set out to find out who was wrong. That lead me to the early Christians. I figured if I'm going to find the truth, I need to go back to the beginning. Well, that was an eye opener to say the least. I found out that both churches were wrong. I learned that a lot of what is taught today wasn't then. Some of what is taught today was considered heresy by the early Christians and they actually argued against it. For instance, the earliest Christians didn't expect to go to Heaven. They expected to receive an inheritance on this earth along with Abraham. You know what? If we look at Scripture, nowhere do we find Heaven as the promised destination of Christians. What we find is the promise to receive the inheritance along with Abraham.

 

[Hitch]

It doesn't come from a church. It comes from a study of the early faith. To make a long story short, years ago I had attended different churches and was "taught" opposing doctrines from a Bible that the churches told me was infallible. Well, that presented a problem. If the Bible is infallible, I believe the original writings were, then that means at least one of these churches is teaching errors. You can't have an infallible Bible and have opposing doctrines. Someone was wrong. So, I set out to find out who was wrong. That lead me to the early Christians. I figured if I'm going to find the truth, I need to go back to the beginning. Well, that was an eye opener to say the least. I found out that both churches were wrong. I learned that a lot of what is taught today wasn't then. Some of what is taught today was considered heresy by the early Christians and they actually argued against it. For instance, the earliest Christians didn't expect to go to Heaven. They expected to receive an inheritance on this earth along with Abraham. You know what? If we look at Scripture, nowhere do we find Heaven as the promised destination of Christians. What we find is the promise to receive the inheritance along with Abraham.

So you do not regularly attend church , correct ?

 

[Butch5]

So you do not regularly attend church , correct ?

I don't typically get into that as it's not usually beneficial. However, the Church I attend had some issues and has split. So, I've not attended it lately.

 

[complete]

I agree with you except for this statement. " it is a figure of speech (but not a metaphor), in which the former word, 'dead' refers to the spiritually dead, and the latter refers to those who have departed this mortal life." I don't believe the first occurrence of dead refers to "spiritually dead". There is no such concept found anywhere in Scripture. They're said to be dead because of their position. If they were to believe they would be said to be alive or have life. It's simply a way of noting an unbeliever.

Hello @Butch5,

I think we are actually thinking along the same lines. For this does refer to the unbeliever I agree. Yet the unbeliever is spoken of as being 'dead in trespasses and sins'. That is not a physical death, is it? but spiritual, before God. The believer is one who has been quickened into spiritual life by the Spirit of God, in Christ Jesus.

'And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;'
(Ephesians 2:1)

'And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;'
(Colossians 2:13)

* As to the correctness of the the words you have quoted from my entry, you will have to take that up with the author of the book, 'Figures of Speech Found in the Bible'. For that is the explanation given there regarding the figure of speech found in this verse. This figure of speech is called 'Antanaclassis 'or 'Word-Clashing', where you have the repetition of the same Word in the same Sentence, with Different meanings.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

1Tim 5:6; But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

 

[Hekuran]

I'm still unclear what is meant by spiritually dead. Is is a metaphor, or is it describing in some literal way the death of a spirit?

 

[Hitch]

I'm still unclear what is meant by spiritually dead. Is is a metaphor, or is it describing in some literal way the death of a spirit?

Reading the NT must have been horrible for you

 

[PloughBoy]

I'm still unclear what is meant by spiritually dead. Is is a metaphor, or is it describing in some literal way the death of a spirit?

No, it is not a metaphor, the phrase means you are "not spiritual alive" you have not had a "spiritual death" how can one have a "spiritual death" when he never had a "Spiritual life". [You are not "Spiritual alive" you are dead to spiritual Life not even knowing spiritual Life.] But when you are "born from Above" not born again but "Born from Heaven". And Christ made that possible, for He is The LIFE GIVING Spirit. The second Adam gives spiritual LIFE> the 1st ADAM gives "SOUL" Life. JESUS gives "SPIRITUAL LIFE" For HE GIVES "ETERNAL LIFE" which is SPIRITUAL LIFE. And That SPIRIT is "THE PARACLETE" that Lives with you Forever. right beside you, Your "SOUL" That is Your ETERNAL LIFE> It empowers. it is "your Nuclear battery"

 

[Hekuran]

Reading the NT must have been horrible for you

On this issue it's not a problem at all. The new testament doesn't speak of spiritual death, so the question of its meaning doesn't arise.

I think you might be reading with the assumptions of a western worldview and platonic dualism, leading you to see things in the Bible text that aren't actually there.

 

[Hekuran]

No, it is not a metaphor, the phrase means you are "not spiritual alive" you have not had a "spiritual death" how can one have a "spiritual death" when he never had a "Spiritual life". [You are not "Spiritual alive" you are dead to spiritual Life not even knowing spiritual Life.] But when you are "born from Above" not born again but "Born from Heaven". And Christ made that possible, for He is The LIFE GIVING Spirit. The second Adam gives spiritual LIFE> the 1st ADAM gives "SOUL" Life. JESUS gives "SPIRITUAL LIFE" For HE GIVES "ETERNAL LIFE" which is SPIRITUAL LIFE. And That SPIRIT is "THE PARACLETE" that Lives with you Forever. right beside you, Your "SOUL" That is Your ETERNAL LIFE> It empowers. it is "your Nuclear battery"

So "dead" as in inactive or not operational - a car battery or phone line can be dead? Not dead like a dog.

 

[Hitch]

On this issue it's not a problem at all. The new testament doesn't speak of spiritual death, so the question of its meaning doesn't arise.

I think you might be reading with the assumptions of a western worldview and platonic dualism, leading you to see things in the Bible text that aren't actually there.

On this issue it's not a problem at all. The new testament doesn't speak of spiritual death, so the question of its meaning doesn't arise[.

LMAO

 

[Hekuran]

LMAO

Prove me wrong. Where does the phrase appear?

 

[Hitch]

Prove me wrong. Where does the phrase appear?

Right next to the Trinity. Now go bore someone else.

 

[Hekuran]

Right next to the Trinity. Now go bore someone else.

@Hitch you've now offered ridicule, sarcasm and insult, but little evidence of thoughtful reading of the Bible.

If you are unable to follow through with your ideas, you can still speak with kindness and gentleness. These are, after all, fruits of the spirit.