Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?
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Samson2020
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Whenever we pray, or thank God, we do so in the name of the Son acknowledging what the Father and the Son have done for us, and what they continue to do for us, as we are not perfected yet.
Samson2020
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John 14:13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be Glorified in the Son."
We do worship God in spirit and in truth. We are to honor the Son and the Father. The Son is the King. The Father is the only TRUE GOD. Thus worship of the Father is what Jesus replied to
Satan when he was tempted. "Thou shalt worship the LORD thy GOD, and Him only shalt thou serve." ( Matt 4:10 and Luke 4:8 )
We do worship God in spirit and in truth. We are to honor the Son and the Father. The Son is the King. The Father is the only TRUE GOD. Thus worship of the Father is what Jesus replied to
Satan when he was tempted. "Thou shalt worship the LORD thy GOD, and Him only shalt thou serve." ( Matt 4:10 and Luke 4:8 )
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No offense taken, so there is no need for me to forgive you.
Matthew 1:20 does not support your insistence that God is trinity. Quite the contrary. The verse indicates Jesus was conceived by holy ghost. In order to be conceived, it requires having a BEGINNING.
Scripture says Almighty God Jehovah DOES NOT have a beginning.
"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalms 90:2 -- King James Version)
Alter2Ego
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
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@Alter2Ego
I quite often ask myself, who was BEFORE the beginning? I am a left with One answer...pun intended.
I quite often ask myself, who was BEFORE the beginning? I am a left with One answer...pun intended.
Thy Word is true from the beginning: and every one of Thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Psalm 119:160
Who is Truth?
John 14:6
Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy Word is truth.
John 17:17
LAMED. For ever, O Yahweh LORD, Thy Word is settled in heaven.
Psalm 119:89
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
John 11:25
Psalm 119:160
Who is Truth?
John 14:6
Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy Word is truth.
John 17:17
LAMED. For ever, O Yahweh LORD, Thy Word is settled in heaven.
Psalm 119:89
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
John 11:25
Samson2020
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I would hope and pray that as I give this reply no one will be offended, for that is not my intent. I am writing this to no one person but to all who may read it.
I have previously been locked out for about a year for presenting the same.
This is also a silencing of a conservative Christian voice.
We all believe that in order to arrive at the truth we must have conversation that challenges what we currently believe. There are no rewards for those who never overcome anything,
so the challenges to our beliefs are those things that will make us stronger, more free, and overcomers.
Jesus is the Truth. In the verse you use John 14:6 He says , ......that no man can come to the Father except through me. Thus signifying that He (Jesus) is not the Father.
Luke 10:22 "All things have been delivered to Me(Jesus) by My Father(God), and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."
Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power IS GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." Who gave it to Him? Luke 10:22 God
1Co 15:45 "And so it is written the first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam BECAME a life giving spirit." How does One become that that one already is if Jesus was God?
Rev 3:13............Thus sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true WITNESS, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD." How does Jesus become the beginning of Gods creation if he is God?
And why would He (Jesus) be a witness unto Himself as that would be contrary to John 5:31 "If I bear witness of Myself, then My witness is not true."
1 Co 15:28 " And when all things have been subjected unto Him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subjected to Him (God) that did subject all things unto Him (Jesus), that God may be all in all."
27-"For, He (God) put all things in subjection under His (Jesus') feet. But when He saith, all things are put in subjection, it is evident that He(God) is excepted who did subject all things unto Him(Jesus)." This does not look like a co-equal arrangement.
Heb 5:9 " And having been PERFECTED, he BECAME the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." I personally can't get past the eternal living God needing to be perfected?
I know that we who believe that Jesus was a man who became the first ever life giving spirit, aside from God, will always disagree with the group who believes that Jesus is and always
was God. I have given a few verses for consideration. We can always agree to disagree, however, we must always in both cases seek the truth and change our minds when truth is
revealed or we remain stuck in the place where we have it wrong. Thus there can be no more lines or precepts upon that which is wrong for it will not fit, unless we twist scripture to make it
fit.
John 17:17 Separate them through thy truth, thy word is truth.
Agreed, but the problem here is that the language used does not convey the proper meaning to the english speaking people. That is to say the word "Logos" was translated as "word".
No real big problem here, but the meaning is PLAN or REASON.
When we study the words of God we are studying His PLAN for mankind, and Jesus, who is the Word or PLAN for man, is the primary example of the PLAN coming to fruition, as He is
proclaimed in Rev 3:14 as 1) The true witness. 2) The BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
In all verses above I have expounded that Jesus either was GIVEN or BECAME or was the beginning of Gods creation. That creation being the first ever spiritually begotten Son of the Father.
We who are spiritually begotten after Jesus are also sons to the Father, and brothers to Jesus, and a continuation of Gods original PLAN (word) which he has never swerved nor altered from.
Just as Jesus was verily Foreordained before the foundation of the world, so were we, as the works were a finished product before the foundation of the world. Heb 4:3, 1 Peter 1:20
Jesus is, was, and always will be Gods blueprint to sonship.
In the beginning was the Word (PLAN), and the Word (PLAN) was with God, and the Word (Plan) was God. (To CREATE other LIFE GIVING SPIRITS, "sons".)
Though all still in subjection to Him.
In considering this verse with the additions for understanding. It should be clear that Jesus who BECAME the author of our salvation, or was the Beginning of the CREATION OF GOD,
was the first to fulfill the word (PLAN) of GOD which was the creation of Son(s).
He (Jesus) is the pattern Son. If we who are the called according to Gods PLAN in this first death are to become what He (Jesus) is then we must follow that pattern that he showed unto us.
"We shall see Him as He is for we shall be like Him."
"Ask me of things to come concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands, command ye Me." Isaiah 45:11
Psalms 2:7 : "I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me(Jesus), Thou art My Son; this day have I(God) begotten thee."
Nowhwere in the entire history of the world has anyone become their own Father. Every child has a father and a mother and is begat.
God had neither, for He has no beginning nor ending.
He (Jesus) was conceived, He became the author of our salvation, he became a life giving spirit, he is the beginning of the creation of God, He is the Son of God, He is the King of kings, He
is the Lord of lords, and He is our Brother. Rom 8:29 ........first born among many brethren." All sons unto the Father.
But He is not the Father, and He is not the ONLY TRUE GOD, the LORD thy GOD. And it was His Father the only TRUE GOD that He was the servant of. Phl 2:8
"....But as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things." John 8:28 If Jesus was God why would He need to be taught anything?
There is nothing in this writing that is/was meant to discredit or upset anyone or their current belief system. It was presented to offer a different view into who Jesus is and why he suffered the things he suffered. He was an example for us all leading to the reward of sonship as a spiritually begotten son of the living God, a life giving spirit, just as He BECAME.
Hebrews 12:2.... who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,......... To become a life giving spirit, and thus give life through baptism in the Holy Ghost which gives life to as many
as receive it. The corn of wheat that fell into the ground and is now bringing forth much fruit.
He attained unto the spitting image of His Father and our Father. This is why God says to Him "O God thy throne is forever". The first finished product of the PLAN of God. "The PLAN was God"
Forgive me if I seem a bit overbearing as this subject is one that resonates with passion for me. It is absolutely imperative to grasp in order to move up and have faith for that which seems
impossible for unregenerate man, and in most cases, even the elect. But we all know we receive from the Father according to our faith. So what do you have faith for?
" Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are gods?" But just as we do not see all things put under Jesus' feet yet, this we do not see either. But we know assuredly that
both will come to fruition in Gods time, for Gods word is no lie.
Greetings,
If someone gives his word, what does that mean?
If someone sends word, what does that mean?
If that Someone is the LORD GOD יְהוָ֗ה ....
13When God made his promise to Abraham, he made a vow to do what he had promised. Since there was no one greater than himself, he used his own name when he made his vow. 14 He said, “I promise you that I will bless you and give you many descendants.” 15Abraham was patient, and so he received what God had promised. 16When we make a vow, we use the name of someone greater than ourselves, and the vow settles all arguments. 17To those who were to receive what he promised, God wanted to make it very clear that he would never change his purpose; so he added his vow to the promise. 18There are these two things, then, that cannot change and about which God cannot lie. So we who have found safety with him are greatly encouraged to hold firmly to the hope placed before us. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for our lives. It is safe and sure, and goes through the curtain of the heavenly temple into the inner sanctuary. 20 On our behalf Jesus has gone in there before us and has become a high priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek.
1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and a priest of the Most High God. As Abraham was coming back from the battle in which he defeated the four kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him one tenth of all he had taken. (The first meaning of Melchizedek's name is “King of Righteousness”; and because he was king of Salem, his name also means “King of Peace.”) 3There is no record of Melchizedek's father or mother or of any of his ancestors; no record of his birth or of his death. He is like the Son of God; he remains a priest forever.
4You see, then, how great he was. Abraham, our famous ancestor, gave him one tenth of all he got in the battle. 5 And those descendants of Levi who are priests are commanded by the Law to collect one tenth from the people of Israel, that is, from their own people, even though they are also descendants of Abraham. 6Melchizedek was not descended from Levi, but he collected one tenth from Abraham and blessed him, the man who received God's promises. 7There is no doubt that the one who blesses is greater than the one who is blessed. 8In the case of the priests the tenth is collected by men who die; but as for Melchizedek the tenth was collected by one who lives, as the scripture says. 9And, so to speak, when Abraham paid the tenth, Levi (whose descendants collect the tenth) also paid it. 10For Levi had not yet been born, but was, so to speak, in the body of his ancestor Abraham when Melchizedek met him.
11It was on the basis of the levitical priesthood that the Law was given to the people of Israel. Now, if the work of the levitical priests had been perfect, there would have been no need for a different kind of priest to appear, one who is in the priestly order of Melchizedek, not of Aaron. 12For when the priesthood is changed, there also has to be a change in the law. 13And our Lord, of whom these things are said, belonged to a different tribe, and no member of his tribe ever served as a priest. 14It is well known that he was born a member of the tribe of Judah; and Moses did not mention this tribe when he spoke of priests.
15The matter becomes even plainer; a different priest has appeared, who is like Melchizedek. 16He was made a priest, not by human rules and regulations, but through the power of a life which has no end. 17 For the scripture says, “You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek.” 18The old rule, then, is set aside, because it was weak and useless. 19For the Law of Moses could not make anything perfect. And now a better hope has been provided through which we come near to God.
20In addition, there is also God's vow. There was no such vow when the others were made priests. 21 But Jesus became a priest by means of a vow when God said to him,
“The Lord has made a solemn promise
and will not take it back:
‘You will be a priest forever.’”
22This difference, then, also makes Jesus the guarantee of a better covenant.
23There is another difference: there were many of those other priests, because they died and could not continue their work. 24But Jesus lives on forever, and his work as priest does not pass on to someone else. 25And so he is able, now and always, to save those who come to God through him, because he lives forever to plead with God for them.
26Jesus, then, is the High Priest that meets our needs. He is holy; he has no fault or sin in him; he has been set apart from sinners and raised above the heavens. 27 He is not like other high priests; he does not need to offer sacrifices every day for his own sins first and then for the sins of the people. He offered one sacrifice, once and for all, when he offered himself. 28The Law of Moses appoints men who are imperfect to be high priests; but God's promise made with the vow, which came later than the Law, appoints the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 6:13-20 - Hebrews 7:1-28
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1Timothy 3:16
Bless you ....><>
If someone gives his word, what does that mean?
If someone sends word, what does that mean?
If that Someone is the LORD GOD יְהוָ֗ה ....
13When God made his promise to Abraham, he made a vow to do what he had promised. Since there was no one greater than himself, he used his own name when he made his vow. 14 He said, “I promise you that I will bless you and give you many descendants.” 15Abraham was patient, and so he received what God had promised. 16When we make a vow, we use the name of someone greater than ourselves, and the vow settles all arguments. 17To those who were to receive what he promised, God wanted to make it very clear that he would never change his purpose; so he added his vow to the promise. 18There are these two things, then, that cannot change and about which God cannot lie. So we who have found safety with him are greatly encouraged to hold firmly to the hope placed before us. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for our lives. It is safe and sure, and goes through the curtain of the heavenly temple into the inner sanctuary. 20 On our behalf Jesus has gone in there before us and has become a high priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek.
1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and a priest of the Most High God. As Abraham was coming back from the battle in which he defeated the four kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him one tenth of all he had taken. (The first meaning of Melchizedek's name is “King of Righteousness”; and because he was king of Salem, his name also means “King of Peace.”) 3There is no record of Melchizedek's father or mother or of any of his ancestors; no record of his birth or of his death. He is like the Son of God; he remains a priest forever.
4You see, then, how great he was. Abraham, our famous ancestor, gave him one tenth of all he got in the battle. 5 And those descendants of Levi who are priests are commanded by the Law to collect one tenth from the people of Israel, that is, from their own people, even though they are also descendants of Abraham. 6Melchizedek was not descended from Levi, but he collected one tenth from Abraham and blessed him, the man who received God's promises. 7There is no doubt that the one who blesses is greater than the one who is blessed. 8In the case of the priests the tenth is collected by men who die; but as for Melchizedek the tenth was collected by one who lives, as the scripture says. 9And, so to speak, when Abraham paid the tenth, Levi (whose descendants collect the tenth) also paid it. 10For Levi had not yet been born, but was, so to speak, in the body of his ancestor Abraham when Melchizedek met him.
11It was on the basis of the levitical priesthood that the Law was given to the people of Israel. Now, if the work of the levitical priests had been perfect, there would have been no need for a different kind of priest to appear, one who is in the priestly order of Melchizedek, not of Aaron. 12For when the priesthood is changed, there also has to be a change in the law. 13And our Lord, of whom these things are said, belonged to a different tribe, and no member of his tribe ever served as a priest. 14It is well known that he was born a member of the tribe of Judah; and Moses did not mention this tribe when he spoke of priests.
15The matter becomes even plainer; a different priest has appeared, who is like Melchizedek. 16He was made a priest, not by human rules and regulations, but through the power of a life which has no end. 17 For the scripture says, “You will be a priest forever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek.” 18The old rule, then, is set aside, because it was weak and useless. 19For the Law of Moses could not make anything perfect. And now a better hope has been provided through which we come near to God.
20In addition, there is also God's vow. There was no such vow when the others were made priests. 21 But Jesus became a priest by means of a vow when God said to him,
“The Lord has made a solemn promise
and will not take it back:
‘You will be a priest forever.’”
22This difference, then, also makes Jesus the guarantee of a better covenant.
23There is another difference: there were many of those other priests, because they died and could not continue their work. 24But Jesus lives on forever, and his work as priest does not pass on to someone else. 25And so he is able, now and always, to save those who come to God through him, because he lives forever to plead with God for them.
26Jesus, then, is the High Priest that meets our needs. He is holy; he has no fault or sin in him; he has been set apart from sinners and raised above the heavens. 27 He is not like other high priests; he does not need to offer sacrifices every day for his own sins first and then for the sins of the people. He offered one sacrifice, once and for all, when he offered himself. 28The Law of Moses appoints men who are imperfect to be high priests; but God's promise made with the vow, which came later than the Law, appoints the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 6:13-20 - Hebrews 7:1-28
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1Timothy 3:16
Bless you ....><>
Samson2020
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It would seem that these agree. Jesus was perfected during his sojourn on earth and then became the Captain of our salvation but only after he was perfected by the things he suffered.
Heb 2:10 "For it became Him (God), for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation(Jesus) PERFECT through sufferings."
If you hover over 1 Timothy 3:16 the NLT translation comes up which says that Christ was manifest in the flesh etc......
Many translations say He, some say God, and some say Christ. Must be a tough verse to get a unified answer as to whom was being talked about.
But we do know that Jesus was manifest in the flesh, seen of angels (clean and unclean), as well as men, while no man has seen God (1 John 1:18), preached unto the gentiles by Paul, and received up into glory. John 20:17
We also know that God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, giving Jesus the words that He wanted men to know. Thus God spoke to a prophet like unto Moses
whom gave the people the words of God. Deu 18:15 This being the servitude he took upon Himself, as he had spoken to Satan that "the LORD thy God is whom thou shalt serve."
This, even though it brings up controversy, makes one study even harder in the scriptures to prove or disprove any and all points made.
Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ and our Father the LORD God.
Butch5
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If we understand the Athanasian view of the Trinity, what are we to make of this passage?
"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,`These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (Rev. 3:1 NKJ)
Here we have seven Spirits of God. Does this mean that there are seven additional persons?
"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,`These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (Rev. 3:1 NKJ)
Here we have seven Spirits of God. Does this mean that there are seven additional persons?
complete
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Hello there,
The answer to all this is in God's words to Moses, 'I Am hath sent me unto you'. For God ( Who is Spirit) would be all that was needed for His People.
One God Who deserves our Praise and Adoration, and not vain disputation.
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
To Him be honour and praise.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The answer to all this is in God's words to Moses, 'I Am hath sent me unto you'. For God ( Who is Spirit) would be all that was needed for His People.
One God Who deserves our Praise and Adoration, and not vain disputation.
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
To Him be honour and praise.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:8-9
John 14:8-9
Samson2020
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Expand your thinking of what this verse means, when you have time, if you don't mind.
Samson2020
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I will, but I want to know what you see, or how you interpret this first. It will help me answer to possibly clear it up. We'll see.
Butch5
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Hi Br. Bear,
I'm in a rather heated debate on this topic elsewhere. The way I see this passage is that it's referring to unity, not number. In the garden Jesus prayed, 'not my will but thine'. He's showing unity. Paul speaks quite a lot about believers being one. Obviously that's unity not one in person. Some hold that 1 John 5:7 is original and claim it proves the Trinity as one God in three persons. But, if we look at the verse, 8, we see that the spirit, water, and blood, agree in one. Again, this goes to unity. I don't know how we as Christian's got on this idea of number, as the Athanasian creed indicates. The theme of unity is all through the Bible. I think it's one in unity, not number.
Samson2020
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I would tend to agree with that line of thought, considering
John 14:28 ..........If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God.
As a born again Christian we see, or understand, the kingdom of God in spirit, but we still cannot visibly SEE the kingdom.
This would also hold true in the "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" in that God was never manifest to mans visible eye as 1 John 4:12 states. (Written many years later)
However; mans vision can see the manifestations of the miracles that were performed by the Father who dwelled in Jesus. In this way they saw the Father, but the eye cannot SEE a spirit,
and God is a Spirit. John 4:24
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man......." Jesus was, and was visible to the human eye.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
This passage is a glimpse into what little we know about the young Jesus. It shows us that he was growing up and becoming more wise, and increasing in favour with God His Father.
Now if He (Jesus) was God how could he increase in wisdom? As God is, was, and always will be all knowing. How does He increase in favour with God if he is God?
Why does he teach the disciples to pray by saying OUR FATHER who art in heaven........... meaning His and theirs.
John 20:17 ".......I ascend unto My Father and your Father, My God and your God..........
These verses simply show a separation of the two, and that Jesus was not as great as the Father. In using His own words he tells us He is not equal to the Father. John 14:28
Thus there is no co-equality of the two according to His own words.
And if we add the fact that when the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, the Son is subject to the Father. This tells us the same story that God is greater than the Son. 1 Co 15:28
This is my vantage point on the scripture.
John 14:28 ..........If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God.
As a born again Christian we see, or understand, the kingdom of God in spirit, but we still cannot visibly SEE the kingdom.
This would also hold true in the "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" in that God was never manifest to mans visible eye as 1 John 4:12 states. (Written many years later)
However; mans vision can see the manifestations of the miracles that were performed by the Father who dwelled in Jesus. In this way they saw the Father, but the eye cannot SEE a spirit,
and God is a Spirit. John 4:24
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man......." Jesus was, and was visible to the human eye.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
This passage is a glimpse into what little we know about the young Jesus. It shows us that he was growing up and becoming more wise, and increasing in favour with God His Father.
Now if He (Jesus) was God how could he increase in wisdom? As God is, was, and always will be all knowing. How does He increase in favour with God if he is God?
Why does he teach the disciples to pray by saying OUR FATHER who art in heaven........... meaning His and theirs.
John 20:17 ".......I ascend unto My Father and your Father, My God and your God..........
These verses simply show a separation of the two, and that Jesus was not as great as the Father. In using His own words he tells us He is not equal to the Father. John 14:28
Thus there is no co-equality of the two according to His own words.
And if we add the fact that when the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, the Son is subject to the Father. This tells us the same story that God is greater than the Son. 1 Co 15:28
This is my vantage point on the scripture.
@Samson2020 & @Butch5
Greetings,
I have not overlooked this, however a little more patience, please.
Lots to do... but have not forgotten you!
Bless you both ....><>
Greetings,
I have not overlooked this, however a little more patience, please.
Lots to do... but have not forgotten you!
Bless you both ....><>
Butch5
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Greetings,
have you ever put something somewhere and when you went back to get it, it is not there?
That is what has happened to my draft reply that i began shortly after you posted this @Samson2020
Perhaps it was too much waffle and too long. It was long and only half done, that is why i didn't post it. Because it was only half done, that is.
What i found was that, in order to 'expand my thinking', i was trying to 'paint the picture' so you could see more precisely where my thinking is.
Looks like you will have to either wait .... or...
I can try to give a quick reply??
let us look at the verse you are requesting expanded bear thinking on....
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:8-9
In a nutshell, one only has to read the Gospel of John, up to that verse and then continue, to get an idea about what this verse is talking about.
Our Lord 'repeats' much the same thing over and over again.
Some were able to follow Him, some turned back and others wanted to exterminate Him because of His claims.
Please, do pick up your Bible and turn to the Gospel according to John and read.
It doesn't take all that long. One can also use an audio Bible and listen to the Gospel of John [request a link if you would like one] which is a way to hear it, believe it or not.
Who followed? Who turned away? Who wanted Jesus dead? And why? As in, what does the Gospel of John tell us?
I think if we can answer those questions as we go along [reading/listening] then the above verse will make enough sense on it's own, without my input. That's not a cop out.
When Moses was talking to the LORD [also referred to the Angel of the LORD] 'in' the 'burning bush', and asked who shall i say sent me? [or similar], what did the LORD say?
I think if you keep that in mind while reading/listening to the Gospel of John, you will also notice the reference, both directly and also as a 'theme' in what Jesus was talking about. You asked me to expand my thinking. If you do as i have said, you will perhaps get a look at the thinking?
One of the things i had been writing about was the answers that Jesus gave to some people, like the woman at Jacob's Well. And then the words He spoke about living waters which the text goes on to explain that He was speaking about the Spirit but it had not yet been given. There is when He was speaking about eating His flesh and Drinking His Blood. Some of these things and others, were so 'out there' and sometimes not the answer you would expect a conversation to deliver. That gives us a little 'insight' into how we also need to read/listen.
Let's have a quick look:
John chapter 4. Jesus asks the woman for a drink. OK She replies, [paraphrased by me] ummm.. I'm a woman... and you're Jew.... and, ummm. I am also a Samaritan... and so, how can you be asking me? What did Jesus say in reply?
Jesus answered, “If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
OK, she says... ummm
“Sir,” the woman replied, “You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where then will You get this living water?
Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us this well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock?”
so far, not you're usual conversation.
Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”
The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water so that I will not get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
Jesus told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
“I have no husband,” the woman replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are correct to say that you have no husband. In fact, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. You have spoken truthfully.”
“Sir,” the woman said, “I see that You are a prophet.
Makes you wonder how she perceived stuff and we miss it?
and then she continues...
Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem.”
“Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.”
Jesus answered, “I who speak to you am He.”
and because we have come this far reading this, can we continue and see it through?
Just then His disciples returned and were surprised that He was speaking with a woman. But no one asked Him, “What do You want from her?” or “Why are You talking with her?” [His disciples had gone to town to get some food]
Then the woman left her water jar, went back into the town, and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” So they left the town and made their way toward Jesus.
Meanwhile the disciples urged Him, “Rabbi, eat something.”
{fair enough}
But He told them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”
So the disciples asked one another, “Could someone have brought Him food?”
{fair question} {now the next bit.... notice how different it is... do you think we would understand what He was saying/meaning? }
Jesus explained, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work. Do you not say, ‘There are still four months until the harvest’? I tell you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are ripe for harvest.
Already the reaper draws his wages and gathers a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together. For in this case the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for; others have done the hard work, and now you have taken up their labor.”
Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in Jesus because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to Him, they asked Him to stay with them, and He stayed two days.
And many more believed because of His message. They said to the woman, “We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world.”
{two things to note here; or three... a woman go tells the message of Christ, a woman who would have been considered 'bad'; she tells it to folk who were not part of the Jewish 'connection' ; Jesus spends two days with them, hearing Him and believe ; then they claim He is the Savior of the world. Those who know a bit of Scripture might recall in the Old Testament it is said more than once that only the LORD is the Savior}
That is a bit of my thoughts expanded. There is plenty more but i do ask again that you take a little time and get into the Gospel of John. Notice that most folk didn't understand and see the questions asked as well as the responses. See what Jesus says to His Disciples after supper. And His prayer for them. There is a lot there which might help to understand the verse in question [or being asked about].
Don't miss the early parts of the Gospel of John, either.
Now, i will try to go back to what this thread is about.
Are we having trouble accepting three in One?
Nuff's a fairy: fair enough
As Butch5 @Butch5 raised, do we also add the Seven Spirits?
Somewhere it pays to stop and ask a deeper question, Who is God? [seriously] Can we get God out of our boxes and let Him reveal Who He is and a bit more?
Why do we have any trouble with the verse:
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:8-9
Perhaps we can understand that God is One and when we go about telling other about Him, we can say with assurance that He is Who you will see He is. Whether they believe or not, history, from Old Testament until now, shows that some do, some don't. [ or is that, most don't? ]
Another thought came a short while ago, if i can capture it back...
A lot of folk get into Jesus and declare Him Lord and even get rejoicing that they are saved [either fully or potentially - let us not argue about that here ] and consider themselves Christians [or whatever turns them on, if Christian seems like a dirty word to them , followers, believers, sons and daughters of God, etc]
OK , but as we do read the Bible with a little allowing the conviction that it can bring, or the encouragement that it gives about actually being one of those people the Bible refers to as Believers/Christians/Servants/Remnant/etc, are we convinced of either a) that we are one of them, and b) that we are doing what 'one of them' did, when it comes to getting out there and doing the believing to the point where it is the LORD Who reveals Himself to be Who He is?
I can tell you that there is no way that you can do it on your own. You have to actually become One with Him. Will people like you more for it? No. Will it be easy, by your present standards? No. Will you suffer? >Yes. But, will God's glory be revealed? Yes. Will His promise, His Word, be true and in you, as you go and carry that cross? Sowing, watering, reaping.
Imagine Jesus coming today and saying all the things that He is recorded as saying in the Gospel of John. Any guess where you'd end up if you tried it?
Is God One?
Butch5 'asked' about the Seven Spirits but i ask, what about the countless multitude from all the world over... . what number would we get to?
Remember Jesus spoke about us that we would [actually, i think you'll find, He prayed that we would... ] be One with Him and the Father.
So is the {idea of the} Trinity which was put together quite some time back in another world from today.. sorry Butch5, another era or time, is it so far fetched that we can not grasp it? I have hardly touched on the Spirit or Holy Ghost but i also know that if we listened to Him, He reveals Himself in ways we could not cook up for ourselves.... and always, i repeat ALWAYS, He is in unity, agreeing as One. Never two or three different messages that contradict, from two or three different people, but somehow, God doing His business His Way via His Son and the Holy Ghost and it is this 'somehow' that people forget and get all in a tangle about.. because it is an argument that a certain enemy can use to cause both division and deception.
Read 2Timothy chapter 2. Take note of one word, diamarturomai
diamarturomenos enōpion tou Theou
διαμαρτυρόμενος ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ in verse 14 which is rendered:
Let us be mindful of this. It was no mere bit of advice.
[perhaps have a slow look at 1Timothy Chapter 2 and see more in context. - in fact all of 2Timothy touches on some quite pertinent things for us all to remember, more often.
Now... @Samson2020 , are you happy with the short version of my reply? I am running out of time at present but i can try again. What you ask is something that i take seriously. that is, to 'expand my thoughts/thinking' , so thank you for reading this and i do apologize if it has made little or no sense and hasn't gone where you might have wanted it to.
Bless you ....><>
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Romans 15:16
have you ever put something somewhere and when you went back to get it, it is not there?
That is what has happened to my draft reply that i began shortly after you posted this @Samson2020
Perhaps it was too much waffle and too long. It was long and only half done, that is why i didn't post it. Because it was only half done, that is.
What i found was that, in order to 'expand my thinking', i was trying to 'paint the picture' so you could see more precisely where my thinking is.
Looks like you will have to either wait .... or...
I can try to give a quick reply??
let us look at the verse you are requesting expanded bear thinking on....
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:8-9
In a nutshell, one only has to read the Gospel of John, up to that verse and then continue, to get an idea about what this verse is talking about.
Our Lord 'repeats' much the same thing over and over again.
Some were able to follow Him, some turned back and others wanted to exterminate Him because of His claims.
Please, do pick up your Bible and turn to the Gospel according to John and read.
It doesn't take all that long. One can also use an audio Bible and listen to the Gospel of John [request a link if you would like one] which is a way to hear it, believe it or not.
Who followed? Who turned away? Who wanted Jesus dead? And why? As in, what does the Gospel of John tell us?
I think if we can answer those questions as we go along [reading/listening] then the above verse will make enough sense on it's own, without my input. That's not a cop out.
When Moses was talking to the LORD [also referred to the Angel of the LORD] 'in' the 'burning bush', and asked who shall i say sent me? [or similar], what did the LORD say?
I think if you keep that in mind while reading/listening to the Gospel of John, you will also notice the reference, both directly and also as a 'theme' in what Jesus was talking about. You asked me to expand my thinking. If you do as i have said, you will perhaps get a look at the thinking?
One of the things i had been writing about was the answers that Jesus gave to some people, like the woman at Jacob's Well. And then the words He spoke about living waters which the text goes on to explain that He was speaking about the Spirit but it had not yet been given. There is when He was speaking about eating His flesh and Drinking His Blood. Some of these things and others, were so 'out there' and sometimes not the answer you would expect a conversation to deliver. That gives us a little 'insight' into how we also need to read/listen.
Let's have a quick look:
John chapter 4. Jesus asks the woman for a drink. OK She replies, [paraphrased by me] ummm.. I'm a woman... and you're Jew.... and, ummm. I am also a Samaritan... and so, how can you be asking me? What did Jesus say in reply?
Jesus answered, “If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
OK, she says... ummm
“Sir,” the woman replied, “You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where then will You get this living water?
Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us this well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock?”
so far, not you're usual conversation.
Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”
The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water so that I will not get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
Jesus told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
“I have no husband,” the woman replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are correct to say that you have no husband. In fact, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. You have spoken truthfully.”
“Sir,” the woman said, “I see that You are a prophet.
Makes you wonder how she perceived stuff and we miss it?
and then she continues...
Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem.”
“Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.”
Jesus answered, “I who speak to you am He.”
and because we have come this far reading this, can we continue and see it through?
Just then His disciples returned and were surprised that He was speaking with a woman. But no one asked Him, “What do You want from her?” or “Why are You talking with her?” [His disciples had gone to town to get some food]
Then the woman left her water jar, went back into the town, and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” So they left the town and made their way toward Jesus.
Meanwhile the disciples urged Him, “Rabbi, eat something.”
{fair enough}
But He told them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”
So the disciples asked one another, “Could someone have brought Him food?”
{fair question} {now the next bit.... notice how different it is... do you think we would understand what He was saying/meaning? }
Jesus explained, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work. Do you not say, ‘There are still four months until the harvest’? I tell you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are ripe for harvest.
Already the reaper draws his wages and gathers a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together. For in this case the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for; others have done the hard work, and now you have taken up their labor.”
Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in Jesus because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to Him, they asked Him to stay with them, and He stayed two days.
And many more believed because of His message. They said to the woman, “We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world.”
{two things to note here; or three... a woman go tells the message of Christ, a woman who would have been considered 'bad'; she tells it to folk who were not part of the Jewish 'connection' ; Jesus spends two days with them, hearing Him and believe ; then they claim He is the Savior of the world. Those who know a bit of Scripture might recall in the Old Testament it is said more than once that only the LORD is the Savior}
That is a bit of my thoughts expanded. There is plenty more but i do ask again that you take a little time and get into the Gospel of John. Notice that most folk didn't understand and see the questions asked as well as the responses. See what Jesus says to His Disciples after supper. And His prayer for them. There is a lot there which might help to understand the verse in question [or being asked about].
Don't miss the early parts of the Gospel of John, either.
Now, i will try to go back to what this thread is about.
Are we having trouble accepting three in One?
Nuff's a fairy: fair enough
As Butch5 @Butch5 raised, do we also add the Seven Spirits?
Somewhere it pays to stop and ask a deeper question, Who is God? [seriously] Can we get God out of our boxes and let Him reveal Who He is and a bit more?
Why do we have any trouble with the verse:
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:8-9
Perhaps we can understand that God is One and when we go about telling other about Him, we can say with assurance that He is Who you will see He is. Whether they believe or not, history, from Old Testament until now, shows that some do, some don't. [ or is that, most don't? ]
Another thought came a short while ago, if i can capture it back...
A lot of folk get into Jesus and declare Him Lord and even get rejoicing that they are saved [either fully or potentially - let us not argue about that here ] and consider themselves Christians [or whatever turns them on, if Christian seems like a dirty word to them , followers, believers, sons and daughters of God, etc]
OK , but as we do read the Bible with a little allowing the conviction that it can bring, or the encouragement that it gives about actually being one of those people the Bible refers to as Believers/Christians/Servants/Remnant/etc, are we convinced of either a) that we are one of them, and b) that we are doing what 'one of them' did, when it comes to getting out there and doing the believing to the point where it is the LORD Who reveals Himself to be Who He is?
I can tell you that there is no way that you can do it on your own. You have to actually become One with Him. Will people like you more for it? No. Will it be easy, by your present standards? No. Will you suffer? >Yes. But, will God's glory be revealed? Yes. Will His promise, His Word, be true and in you, as you go and carry that cross? Sowing, watering, reaping.
Imagine Jesus coming today and saying all the things that He is recorded as saying in the Gospel of John. Any guess where you'd end up if you tried it?
Is God One?
Butch5 'asked' about the Seven Spirits but i ask, what about the countless multitude from all the world over... . what number would we get to?
Remember Jesus spoke about us that we would [actually, i think you'll find, He prayed that we would... ] be One with Him and the Father.
So is the {idea of the} Trinity which was put together quite some time back in another world from today.. sorry Butch5, another era or time, is it so far fetched that we can not grasp it? I have hardly touched on the Spirit or Holy Ghost but i also know that if we listened to Him, He reveals Himself in ways we could not cook up for ourselves.... and always, i repeat ALWAYS, He is in unity, agreeing as One. Never two or three different messages that contradict, from two or three different people, but somehow, God doing His business His Way via His Son and the Holy Ghost and it is this 'somehow' that people forget and get all in a tangle about.. because it is an argument that a certain enemy can use to cause both division and deception.
Read 2Timothy chapter 2. Take note of one word, diamarturomai
diamarturomenos enōpion tou Theou
διαμαρτυρόμενος ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ in verse 14 which is rendered:
- command them in God’s presence
- Warn them before God
- charge them before God
- solemnly exhort them in the presence of God
- charging them before the Lord
- give them a solemn warning in God's presence
- testifying fully before the LORD
- testifying fully before the Lord
- etc
- Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
- Remind the believers of these things, charging them before God to avoid quarreling over words, which succeeds only in leading the listeners to ruin.
Let us be mindful of this. It was no mere bit of advice.
[perhaps have a slow look at 1Timothy Chapter 2 and see more in context. - in fact all of 2Timothy touches on some quite pertinent things for us all to remember, more often.
Now... @Samson2020 , are you happy with the short version of my reply? I am running out of time at present but i can try again. What you ask is something that i take seriously. that is, to 'expand my thoughts/thinking' , so thank you for reading this and i do apologize if it has made little or no sense and hasn't gone where you might have wanted it to.
Bless you ....><>
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Romans 15:16
