Matthew ten Verseight
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Typologically. Just as Abraham did. Just as Moses did. Etc.
And when You Die Your 1st Stop Ain't Heaven I don't care what you Believe, or What they told You. you are going to the grave
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Matthew ten Verseight
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Yes, agreed.
According to scripture, "souls" do indeed "die".
Pro_19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.
Eze_3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze_33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Rev_16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
That which returns to God, is His [God's] "spirit", or the "breath of life" of God (Genesis 2:7):
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Isa_2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
That which is the "spirit" is God's, not man's, nor man himself. The word "soul" simply means 'being/person or creature'. A living soul is simply the sum total of the "dust of the earth" and the "breath of life of God". A dead soul, is simply a lifeless corpse (as Adam was before having the breath of life of God breathed into his nostrils by God). The "spirit", or "breath of life" of God is simply His animating life, which causes the inanimate dust to quicken (become alive). It's like a fully formed light bulb, and then having the electricity connected to it. The electricity comes from the 'power source' (in this instance, the eternal living God), and once taken away, or removed, the light bulb ceases to shine or function.
This understanding, all through scripture, is found in all of historical Christianity. The WTS/JW simply annexed it (and altered it to fit their 144,000 and Jesus resurrection theologies).
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Butch5
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I really hate to see you put all this effort out for rno real cause. You've not established your premise. Until you do that there's no foundation for your claims.Read the context. "Firstborn from the dead" (πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων) deals with "preeminence" (πρωτευων ), not in time or space, as the text does not say "first to be resurrected from the dead". I can show examples of firstborn having nothing to do with being the first (in time or place) to be born. Need examples?
“Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.
However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:
Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.
Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.
Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].
Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.
The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.
Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.
Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:
Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.
1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief
Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in otherwords “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.
Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.
So, in considering the word “Firstborn”, what does this mean when it refers to Jesus in Colossians 1:15? Context tells us.
The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:
2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.
We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:
Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.”
Now, consider the greater context of the whole of scripture, for Christ Jesus can be said to fulfill both meanings, in that not only is:
[1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:
Romans 9:5 KJB - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:Hebrews 7:26 KJB - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:
Isaiah 9:6 KJB - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Luke 2:11 KJB - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.Revelation 12:1 KJB - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:Revelation 12:2 KJB - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.Revelation 12:3 KJB - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.Revelation 12:4 KJB - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
After this, how can any say that the Son [Jesus] is created or even first to be resurrected using that “firstborn” text?
Of course Jesus has preeminence. But, He is still first to be resurrected. I don't see your point in all of the above. You're explanation of the transfiguration not only has Moses and Elijah resurrected before Christ, it has Cheist Himself resurrected before He died. How are you going to make that one work? How is He resurrected before He died? How are they seeing His second coming when He has t even left from His first coming?
I'm not ignoring your posts, but if you want me to engage at a deeper level you're going to have to establish your premise. Where does the Bible teach that people go to Heaven? Nothing says Enoch went to Heaven. The Bible says Elijah went up to heaven/heavens. The Hebrew says heavens, the Greek says heaven. However, heaven can mean the sky or where God is. Unless you can definitively prove that it's where God is you can't use this passage as evidence as it could be either one. So that takes the passage of Elijah out. At the transfiguration they were on a mountain so neither Elijah nor Moses were in Heaven.
Your premise, that people go to Heaven has as an assumption that people are alive after they die. That would need to be established to establish your.premise.
So can we establish these two premises before moving on?
Butch5
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Typologically? You just said they witnessed it with their eyes?
Matthew ten Verseight
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Yes, a typological event (like Sodom and Gomorrah, etc) is a real live event. It's a miniature 'picture' of the greater. It's like looking at a matchbox car or micromachine, and understanding it is simply a miniature (representation) of the greater.
Butch5
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But not a vision like Jesus said?
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No. You misunderstood me. I said that Enoch, and Elijah who never died are in Heaven. Moses, died, and was resurrected and taken to Heaven, just as the 'firstfruits' were resurrected and taken at Jesus' own resurrection and ascension. Those are the only humans alive (not dead) in heaven (3rd).
Matthew ten Verseight
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Already explained that.
Butch5
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I realized that after I saw your post 112. I still think the idea that people go to Heaven has to be established. It's not found in Scripture.
Matthew ten Verseight
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Oh, there is a real cause, and not merely for your benefit. See this post, - And when You Die Your 1st Stop Ain't Heaven I don't care what you Believe, or What they told You. you are going to the grave
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Butch5
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You did, I don't think it was a very good argument. Essentially we have to understand it literally because the word means to see with the eyes, correct?
Matthew ten Verseight
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People who are "dead" do not. People who are alive, can (in their proper timing).
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A typological event is literal/natural. See Sodom and Gomorrah. It is witnessed with the eyes.
Butch5
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I was referring to your posts to me. I saw that post. We actually agree on body, spirit, soul. It's what comes next that we disagree on.
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Butch5
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That's what needs to be established. It's not found in Scripture. If you could establish that you might have an argument. I've been through the Scriltures many times over many years. I've not found a single passage. And, in all of the debates over the years no one has been able to present a single passage. It's just not there.
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I can tell you why. It is your own doing, and that would take some time to explain, but instead a single question, What "heaven" are these (following) referring to (1, 2 or 3; please choose for each text below) [I am not asking any other question in this reply, just this question]?
In Job 1 & 2, the locational meeting of the "sons of God" (1, 2 or 3).
Psalms 24, the location of the "everlasting doors" (1, 2 or 3).
Psa_11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
Psa_89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
Psa_139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Mat_5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mat_6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat_19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat_23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Luk_6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk_10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Luk_15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luk_18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
2Co_5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Eph_1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Php_3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Col_1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Heb_10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Rev_5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
JerryfromMass
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Seventh Day Adventism is a cult. It relies on false teacher-false prophet Ellen G. White.
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Matthew ten Verseight
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You are simply mistaken, and overlooked 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "heaven", which I cited (please go back and look). Jesus, when He returns from the 3rd Heaven (to which He ascended to; Ephesians 4:10; Psalms 24, etc), is actually seen coming far above the earth (a dark cloud that gets bigger and brighter as it approaches the earth), and thus it (1 Thess. 4:16) does not refer to the first heaven, which splits and passes away at His second coming or return (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:14).
Paul mentions the 3rd heaven, 2 Corinthians 12:2, which is where God (the Father) actually dwells (Our Father which art in Heaven ...). He does so, based upon the numeration of Genesis 1, which mentions the 1st (where the fowl fly) and 2nd heavens (where the sun, moon and local stars are (local Sol system)).
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Interesting position. Perhaps, since you hold to so dear a conclusion, that you would be willing to substantiate that/those claim/s in another thread for that purpose? I would not mind joining you there, and discussing anything you would like on that topic. Please, however, I ask in charity (1 Cor. 13) do not attempt to do so in this thread, as that is not the purpose of this thread, please.
However, to briefly reply, that response that you have given, is what is known as an Ad Hominem to given evidences. It shows, philosophically, that you have no evidence for your claim (on the state of the dead), and resort to what is effectively name-calling, and 'poisoning the well' fallacies. Let's assume both of your unfounded and undocumented premises were possible (I do not so grant in reality, but for the sake of considering the argument from your perspective). Does it make the theological position on the state of the dead in error automatically, or by default? No. Many which are actually cults, carry truthful Biblical doctrines within them, and thus to simply 'smear' such groups with similar words and 'hand-wave' away all their teachings by doing so, and not actually addressing their theology from scripture, is to do ones self an injustice, as well as any theology expounded. In other words, it might make 'you' feel good to say such, and relieve yourself mentally, however, it does not actually address, scripturally, the position on the state of the dead. Such, is always the sign of a weak and usually defenseless position.
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JerryfromMass
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You speak of ad hominem, yet you began with ad hominem when you cited "WTS/JW" in your previous reply. This is not stated in defense of WTS/JW, for it is also a cult, but rather to point out your own hypocrisy.
To bolster your position, you provide links*** to Earnest and Batchelor, two SDA pastors/teachers and followers of your SDA cult leader false prophet Ellen G. White. Why the subtlety? I know it's a hallmark m.o. of cults, and the SDA have perfected it. But, why not simply come out and tell us that you are SDA, that the SDA is the one true church, the true remnant, and the only ones who will become the 144,000. Because the SDA is a cult, and you need to lull in new members before you indoctrinate them fully, that's why. Have a nice day.
***EDIT : links removed
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