Can Salvation Be lost?

[Butch5]

The thing that always amazes me about this debate is how people make up their own meanings for things. It's like they can read the minds of people in Scripture. If so and so didn't do this then he must not have believed. Really? So modern Christians can assess the motives of people who lived two thousand years ago? Seems to me that it's more like people trying to shoehorn the Scriptures into their theology.

 

[Butch5]

Hi @B-A-C,

' In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

Please read this carefully, B-A-C, and then you will not say your last sentence again.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I read it carefully and I still agree with B-A-C's last statement

 

[complete]

The thing that always amazes me about this debate is how people make up their own meanings for things. It's like they can read the minds of people in Scripture. If so and so didn't do this then he must not have believed. Really? So modern Christians can assess the motives of people who lived two thousand years ago? Seems to me that it's more like people trying to shoehorn the Scriptures into their theology.

Hello @Butch5,

Who are you addressing with these remarks?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Who are you addressing with these remarks?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

It wasn't addressed to anyone in particular. It was just a general statenent.

 

[complete]

I read it carefully and I still agree with B-A-C's last statement

' In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

Hello Butch5,

Those to whom Paul was writing had been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is 'the earnest' of their inheritance, 'until' the redemption of the purchased possession, which takes place at the resurrection. The word 'until' is sufficient to show that those so 'sealed' would be ultimately redeemed. There is no sense of loss here, but of great gain.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

It wasn't addressed to anyone in particular. It was just a general statement.

Hello @Butch5,

I thought you were better than that, Butch. For it is rather cowardly to throw statements of that nature into the mix, thereby giving those to whom you are referring no right of reply.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[JerryfromMass]

The question remains. Why didn't He know them? For those who say it's as simple as believing in Jesus, these people believed in Jesus.
So something more must have been required.

Pride of life. Look at what Jesus says they will say: Have we not done this, and have we not done that. Prideful arrogance is lawlessness.

 

[Butch5]

' In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

Hello Butch5,

Those to whom Paul was writing had been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is 'the earnest' of their inheritance, 'until' the redemption of the purchased possession, which takes place at the resurrection. The word 'until' is sufficient to show that those so 'sealed' would be ultimately redeemed. There is no sense of loss here, but of great gain.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I thought you were better than that, Butch. For it is rather cowardly to throw statements of that nature into the mix, thereby giving those to whom you are referring no right of reply.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Cowardly? Really? It was a statenent of what amazes me. How is that cowardly? In all of my years on forums I have never seen anyone make a logical argument for OSAS. It's always twisted and ignored Scripture. I've seen people go so far as to say followers of Satan will be saved if at some point the were believers in Christ

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

How do you come to that conclusion?

Hello @Butch5,

'In Whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed
with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest
of our inheritance
until the redemption
of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Eph 1:13-14)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

@Butch5 said:-
The thing that always amazes me about this debate is how people make up their own meanings for things. It's like they can read the minds of people in Scripture. If so and so didn't do this then he must not have believed. Really? So modern Christians can assess the motives of people who lived two thousand years ago? Seems to me that it's more like people trying to shoehorn the Scriptures into their theology.

Cowardly? Really? It was a statenent of what amazes me. How is that cowardly? In all of my years on forums I have never seen anyone make a logical argument for OSAS. It's always twisted and ignored Scripture. I've seen people go so far as to say followers of Satan will be saved if at some point the were believers in Christ

Hello @Butch5,

With respect, It was a statement, which because made general, blanketed all who have taken part under the same accusation. That is not just.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

'In Whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed
with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest
of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Eph 1:13-14)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Since you didn't answer my question I can only assume that your conclusion is based in the word, sealed. Paul says they were sealed until redemption. That doesn't mean they can't be lost. In Paul's day a seal was a symbol of authenticity, just as it is today. A seal wasn't placed on something with the expectation that it would never be broken. It was intended to be broken. In Paul's day it wasn't uncommon for a king who was sending a letter or scroll via courier to place his seal on the letter or scroll. Typically the seal was wax, or equivalent, and the king would press a symbol, often a ring, into the wax. That way the recipient would know if the letter or scroll was authentic or if it had been tampered with. If the scroll arrived with a broken seal then it was compromised and may have been tampered with. If the seal was unbroken then the recipient knew the contents were authentic. We do the same thing today. When I buy milk it has a seal on it. The producer doesn't have an expectation that the seal will remain there forever. He expects that the seal will remain in tact until it reaches the final purchaser. The producer has every expectation that I will break that seal. Likewise, the king has every expectation that the recipient of the scroll will break that seal.

So, when Paul says they are sealed until the day of redemption. He intends that the seal will be broken on the day of redemption. However, if on that day the seal is found to have been broken then the contents may have been tampered with. The Holy Spirit is that seal. If on the day of redemption the Holy Spirit is not found in that one who was sealed it indicates that they have been compromised.

It is never the intention that a seal will not broken. The question is, who breaks the seal? Is it the one who was intended to break it, or someone else?

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

With respect, It was a statement, which because made general, blanketed all who have taken part under the same accusation. That is not just.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

It wasn't an accusation. It was a statenent of fact about my experience with debates on this subject.

 

[Butch5]

This thread is up to 8 pages and if it doesn't get shut down (it usually does) will likely be hundreds of pages long. I'm not sure how it would get over one page. The question is, "can salvation be lost"? We have a clear answer in Scripture from Jesus Himself. He said there some who beleive for a while and in time of temptation turn away.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

Since you didn't answer my question I can only assume that your conclusion is based in the word, sealed. Paul says they were sealed until redemption. That doesn't mean they can't be lost. In Paul's day a seal was a symbol of authenticity, just as it is today. A seal wasn't placed on something with the expectation that it would never be broken. It was intended to be broken. In Paul's day it wasn't uncommon for a king who was sending a letter or scroll via courier to place his seal on the letter or scroll. Typically the seal was wax, or equivalent, and the king would press a symbol, often a ring, into the wax. That way the recipient would know if the letter or scroll was authentic or if it had been tampered with. If the scroll arrived with a broken seal then it was compromised and may have been tampered with. If the seal was unbroken then the recipient knew the contents were authentic. We do the same thing today. When I buy milk it has a seal on it. The producer doesn't have an expectation that the seal will remain there forever. He expects that the seal will remain in tact until it reaches the final purchaser. The producer has every expectation that I will break that seal. Likewise, the king has every expectation that the recipient of the scroll will break that seal.

So, when Paul says they are sealed until the day of redemption. He intends that the seal will be broken on the day of redemption. However, if on that day the seal is found to have been broken then the contents may have been tampered with. The Holy Spirit is that seal. If on the day of redemption the Holy Spirit is not found in that one who was sealed it indicates that they have been compromised.

It is never the intention that a seal will not broken. The question is, who breaks the seal? Is it the one who was intended to break it, or someone else?

Hello @Butch5,

I quoted the verse, for the answer was within it. I trusted you to read it, and see what had lead me to the conclusion that I made.

Thank you for giving me the information that you have regarding the use of the seal within Paul's day. However, I will see how the Holy Spirit has used that word elsewhere in Scripture, and let that be my guide, for that is the only sure way of knowing how a word should be understood within it's context.

* Sealed:- sphragizō (G4972)
* Definition:- vb. to seal, place a seal upon:-
(a) literally (eg., Mark 27:66);
(b) figuratively, to keep concealed, secret, (eg., Revelation 10:4; Revelation 22:10)
(c) to identify as to ownership, (eg., Ephesians 1:13; Revelation 7:3)
(d) to authenticate, certify, (eg., John 3:33)
(e) to preserve until a later time, (eg., Romans 15:28; Ephesians 4:30; Revelation20:3)
(Ref: 'The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon)

* As you can see, in Ephesians 1:13 the word 'sealed' is used to identify as to ownership.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

* As you can see, in Ephesians 1:13 the word 'sealed' is used to identify as to ownership.

The Master all three servants in the parable of the talents. He kept two of them, and threw one out.
The Master owned the fig tree that wouldn't bear fruit. He said if it doesn't bear fruit next year chop it down.

I've owned a number of cars through the years, that I don't own now.

What does ownership have to do with OSAS?

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I quoted the verse, for the answer was within it. I trusted you to read it, and see what had lead me to the conclusion that I made.

Thank you for giving me the information that you have regarding the use of the seal within Paul's day. However, I will see how the Holy Spirit has used that word elsewhere in Scripture, and let that be my guide, for that is the only sure way of knowing how a word should be understood within it's context.

* Sealed:- sphragizō (G4972)
* Definition:- vb. to seal, place a seal upon:-
(a) literally (eg., Mark 27:66);
(b) fig. to keep concealed, secret, (eg., Revelation 10:4; Revelation 22:10)
(c) to identify as to ownership, (eg., Ephesians 1:13; Revelation 7:3)
(d) to authenticate, certify, (eg., John 3:33)
(e) to preserve until a later time, (eg., Romans 15:28; Ephesians 4:30; Revelation20:3)
(Ref: 'The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon)

* As you can see, in Ephesians 1:13 the word 'sealed' is used to identify as to ownership.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Seeing how the word is used in Scripture is going to a dictionary?

Posting the passage without commentary tells me nothing. I said in the first post that I read the verse and still agreed with B-A-C. That shows I didnt see that passage the way you did.

If sealed means ownership as you suggest, please explain to me how that proves one who is sealed can't be lost.

 

[complete]

The Master all three servants in the parable of the talents. He kept two of them, and threw one out.
The Master owned the fig tree that wouldn't bear fruit. He said if it doesn't bear fruit next year chop it down.

I've owned a number of cars through the years, that I don't own now.

What does ownership have to do with OSAS?

Hello @B-A-C,

It has everything to do with Ephesians 1:13.

This subject of this thread is, 'Can Salvation be lost?' and not 'OSAS'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

It has everything to do with Ephesians 1:13.

What does being "stamped" with a seal of ownership have to do with OSAS?

This subject of this thread is, 'Can Salvation be lost?' and not 'OSAS'.

In your own words, what is the difference between the two?

 

[complete]

Seeing how the word is used in Scripture is going to a dictionary?

Posting the passage without commentary tells me nothing. I said in the first post that I read the verse and still agreed with B-A-C. That shows I didnt see that passage the way you did.

If sealed means ownership as you suggest, please explain to me how that proves one who is sealed can't be lost.

Hello @Butch5,

With respect: No. I used the concordance to find references to the word, 'sealed', and that also gave me the definitions for it, which I have shared with you. Looking up the references was my intention with the view to reading and comparing them.

Ownership means that I am the Lord's, and the context reveals that I am His purchased possession, which He will surely 'redeem'. That is enough for me.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris