Can Salvation Be lost?

[PloughBoy]

For it would seem i am an outsider in this conversation, and my views concerning such matters are not appreciated or consider, for my views are Total base in the "Unadulterated Biblical Truth of The "Holy Scripture" which many considered "Calvinistic" in the form of The Orthodox "Calvinistic' Language called :Calvinise. And many of my Antagonist, are mostly unlearn and consider those who believe in "The 5 Points of Calvinism" are Calvinist. Just Because of the Refute, of "The 5 points of Arminianism" at "The Synod of Dort". " The 5 Articles of The Remonstrance 1810.". For The WORD of GOD has Declared in full clarity, that: the sons of this world are wiser than the sons of the light. Examine yourselves to see if you are Truly in the Faith. "Examine" is more than a word, for it is a action, a plumbline, a standard. In referring to "Biblical terminology".
English Revised Version
And his lord commended the unrighteous steward because he had done wisely: for the sons of this world are for their own generation wiser than the sons of the light.
English Standard Version (Ephesians 5:8)
for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

(BSB)
Children of Light
Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,

"Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;"

The key words: "I NEVER Knew you" NEVER! KNEW YOU!

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, I agree regarding the phrase, 'born again'. Though all who are saved by God's grace can be said to have been born from above.

'Though He were a Son,
yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;
And being made perfect,
He became the author of eternal ('aionios') salvation,
unto all them that obey '(hupakouo') Him;
Called of God an high priest
after the order of Melchisedec.'
(Hebrews 5:8-10)

Paul speaks of the 'obedience of faith' in Romans 1:5. It was this obedience which I believe Paul was referring to in Hebrews 5:9 that you quote. The word translated 'obey' is (hupakouo): meaning 'to hear under' (as a subordinate), that is 'to listen attentively'; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority. It is translated:- 'hearken', 'be obedient' and, 'obey'.

It is interesting that in the next verse (v.11) reference is made to their being 'dull of hearing', They were in danger of apostatizing (see 6:1-6), and verses 11-14 describes their condition as being 'dull of hearing': in need of teaching in 'the first principles of the oracles of God'; in need of 'milk' and not of 'strong meat'; 'Unskilful in the word of righteousness'; 'a babe'.

The Lord Jesus is used as an example of One Who though a Son, learned obedience by the things which He suffered, and having reached the goal of His faith, or being perfected, by His death and Resurrection to Life; He was able to be the author of eternal salvation to all who 'listened attentively', and 'obeyed' Him. In chapter 12:2 reference is again made to Him as not only 'the Author', but also 'the Finisher' of their faith: and they were urged to look unto Him, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is now sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Yes, simply hearkening attentively to the gospel of God concerning His Son, with the hearing of faith, and believing, submitting oneself to His rule and authority, is in itself is an act of faith obedience, . For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Each one of us who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ to the saving of their soul, is one who has entered into a life of faith obedience to the One Who died for them and rose again (as those listed in Hebrews 11, who believed God, like Abraham, and it was reckoned unto them for righteousness).

That is done, Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

So, do you agree then that there are conditions?

 

[Br. Bear]

* The Lord Jesus only ever did and said what the Father gave Him to do and say, He did the will of His Father.

Praise the Lord

 

[Br. Bear]

Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently, He shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isaiah 52:13

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.


Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:1-13

 

[Br. Bear]

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, Whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before Me, and the souls which I have made.

For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid Me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.


I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.

I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.


But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
Isaiah 57:15-21

 

[Br. Bear]

Well, Jack Campaign he was a wicked man, Stole from friends as well as foes. And Jack Campaign he never cared for anyone, Well Jack Campaign was all alone. Then came his day to stand before the Lord Give an account of his life Said, "I'm sorry, I don't want to die" Well Jack Campaign began to cry The Lord said, "Sorry, I never knew you Sorry, but it's too late, too late Sorry, I never knew you Depart from me, you've sealed your fate"

John L. Jones was considered a good man By all the people throughout the land John L. Jones he had the good book on his shelf But John L. Jones lived for himself Then came his day to stand before the Lord Give an account of his life "I went to church you know I paid my tithes" All the Lord said was, "Why?" The Lord said, "Sorry, I never knew you Sorry, but it's too late, too late Sorry, I never knew you Depart from me, you've sealed your fate"

Well C. T. Studd he was a humble man Served the Lord both night and day Well all his life he lived to honor him And at his feet he learned to pray Then came his day to stand before the Lord Give an account of his life With tears of joy streaming down his face Said, "My King died in my place" The Lord said, "Enter into the kingdom!" "Enter in my friend," he said it again "Enter into the kingdom!" "For now your life will never end" "Enter into the kingdom!" "Enter in my friend," he said it again "Enter into the kingdom!" "For now your life will never end!"

Enter In - Barry McGuire & Seeds

 

[Br. Bear]

You may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You might be a rock ’n’ roll addict prancing on the stage
You might have drugs at your command, women in a cage
You may be a businessman or some high-degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may be a state trooper, you might be a young Turk
You may be the head of some big TV network
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame
You may be living in another country under another name

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may be a construction worker working on a home
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
You might own guns and you might even own tanks
You might be somebody’s landlord, you might even own banks

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
You may be workin’ in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair
You may be somebody’s mistress, may be somebody’s heir

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed

But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray
You may call me anything but no matter what you say

You’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You’re gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you’re gonna have to serve somebody

Gotta Serve Somebody - Bob Dylan Slow Train Coming

 

[Sue D.]

The title of this thread is "Can salvation be lost"?

Once the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer at the time of their salvation, He never leaves. Based on Ephesians 1:13-14.

 

[B-A-C]

Once the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer at the time of their salvation, He never leaves. Based on Ephesians 1:13-14.

Eph 1:13;
(AMPC) In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.
(BBE) In whom you, having been given the true word, the good news of your salvation, and through your faith in him, were given the sign of the Holy Spirit of hope,
(CEV) Christ also brought you the truth, which is the good news about how you can be saved. You put your faith in Christ and were given the promised Holy Spirit to show that you belong to God.
(GNB) And you also became God's people when you heard the true message, the Good News that brought you salvation. You believed in Christ, and God put his stamp of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit he had promised.
(NIrV) You also became believers in Christ. That happened when you heard the message of truth. It was the good news about how you could be saved. When you believed, he marked you with a seal. The seal is the Holy Spirit that he promised.
(NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
(NLT) And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

I don't see anything here that says He never leaves.

 

[Sue D.]

@ B-A-C -- you seem to have missed the next verse which I'd also listed. Vs 14 is also important.

 

[complete]

For it would seem i am an outsider in this conversation, and my views concerning such matters are not appreciated or consider, for my views are Total base in the "Unadulterated Biblical Truth of The "Holy Scripture" which many considered "Calvinistic" in the form of The Orthodox "Calvinistic' Language called :Calvinise. And many of my Antagonist, are mostly unlearn and consider those who believe in "The 5 Points of Calvinism" are Calvinist. Just Because of the Refute, of "The 5 points of Arminianism" at "The Synod of Dort". " The 5 Articles of The Remonstrance 1810.". For The WORD of GOD has Declared in full clarity, that: the sons of this world are wiser than the sons of the light. Examine yourselves to see if you are Truly in the Faith. "Examine" is more than a word, for it is a action, a plumbline, a standard. In referring to "Biblical terminology".
English Revised Version
And his lord commended the unrighteous steward because he had done wisely: for the sons of this world are for their own generation wiser than the sons of the light.
English Standard Version (Ephesians 5:8),


for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

(BSB)
Children of Light
Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,

"Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;"

The key words: "I NEVER Knew you" NEVER! KNEW YOU!

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'
(Mat 7:21-23)

Hello @PloughBoy,

I am sorry you feel that you are being ignored. I had lost touch with the thread for a while, and I now see that you did enter three posts before this one (replies #60, #65 & #67). If these were not addressed I am sorry. Your opinion on this subject, 'Can Salvation Be Lost', is as important as that of anyone else.

You are right: the words of the Lord in Matthew 7:23, 'I never knew you' are important in relation to this subject. For if the Lord never knew them, then they were never His. So nothing was 'lost' in their case. They had not done the will of the Father, which was to believe on His Son, so the works that they claimed to have performed were not done by the power of God, They were counterfeit, so workers of iniquity indeed.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

You are right: the words of the Lord in Matthew 7:23, 'I never knew you' are important in relation to this subject.

The question remains. Why didn't He know them? For those who say it's as simple as believing in Jesus, these people believed in Jesus.
So something more must have been required.

 

[B-A-C]

@ B-A-C -- you seem to have missed the next verse which I'd also listed. Vs 14 is also important.

(AMPC) That [Spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it--to the praise of His glory.
(ASV) which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
(BBE) Which is the first-fruit of our heritage, till God gets back that which is his, to the praise of his glory.
(CEV) The Spirit also makes us sure that we will be given what God has stored up for his people. Then we will be set free, and God will be honored and praised.
(HCSB) He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.
(KJV) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
(NIV) who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

I don't see anything here about never leaving either.

 

[complete]

So, do you agree then that there are conditions?

Hello @Butch5,

I do not believe that there are conditions, for I believe what John said in his summation regarding the chosen content of his gospel message, in John 20:30-31:-

'And many other signs truly did Jesus
in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written,
that ye might believe
that Jesus is the Christ,
the Son of God;
and that believing
ye might have life through His name.'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

The question remains. Why didn't He know them? For those who say it's as simple as believing in Jesus, these people believed in Jesus.
So something more must have been required.

Hello @B-A-C,

They knew who Jesus was, obviously, but they had never received Him as their Lord and Saviour, otherwise the Lord could never have said in all honesty, 'I never knew you'. Also, if they had, it could not have been said of them that they did not do the will of the Father.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

They knew who Jesus was, obviously, but they had never received Him as their Lord and Saviour, otherwise He could never have said in all honesty, 'I never knew you'. Also, if they had, it could not have been said of them that they did not do the will of the Father.

So then it comes down to... they didn't "DO" the will of the Father.

 

[complete]

Eph 1:13;
(AMPC) In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.
(BBE) In whom you, having been given the true word, the good news of your salvation, and through your faith in him, were given the sign of the Holy Spirit of hope,
(CEV) Christ also brought you the truth, which is the good news about how you can be saved. You put your faith in Christ and were given the promised Holy Spirit to show that you belong to God.
(GNB) And you also became God's people when you heard the true message, the Good News that brought you salvation. You believed in Christ, and God put his stamp of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit he had promised.
(NIrV) You also became believers in Christ. That happened when you heard the message of truth. It was the good news about how you could be saved. When you believed, he marked you with a seal. The seal is the Holy Spirit that he promised.
(NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
(NLT) And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

I don't see anything here that says He never leaves.

Hi @B-A-C,

' In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

Please read this carefully, B-A-C, and then you will not say your last sentence again.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

So then it comes down to... they didn't "DO" the will of the Father.

Hello @B-A-C,

Yes, it comes down to that.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

Please read this carefully, B-A-C, and then you will not say your last sentence again.

I've that verse literally hundreds of times. But I am a full gospel believer.
I don't base my salvation on one or two verses.

1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

1Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Hopefully you will read some of these verses and not say your last sentence again.

 

[complete]

@B-A-C said:
So then it comes down to... they didn't "DO" the will of the Father.

Hello @B-A-C,

Yes, it comes down to that.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris