t-t-t-t-tongues; why the forked tongues and unchristian division?

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

over the years there have been a number of threads about 'Speaking in Tongues'

Sadly there have been all too many fights and and not nearly enough love and care in real building up and real Bible study.

This thread is here as an opportunity for all Members to join in and for all to be able to discuss what the Bible says, which might include what it doesn't say and to encourage you all to be brave enough to look at this subject together, not divided.

Over the years, there have been plenty of things said in Christian circles both for and against 'speaking in tongues'.
Something is missing from both sides, i submit, and i invite you to join with each other, in love, to talk about this subject productively.


Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

What are some Old Testament verses/passages about 'speaking in tongues'?

 

[Downunder]

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
cited by Paul the apostle
1Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

 

[B-A-C]

Joel 2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.
Joel 2:29 "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Now while this doesn't appear to specifically say "tongues".. it was the verse Peter quotes in Acts 2:17-19;
When people asked about what was happening on the first day of Pentecost (the Bible mentions more than one).

 

[twcstp111]

I thought that speaking in tongues sounded a lot like 'the resurrection of the dead and the calming of winds'

These have many interpretations--when I look deep into these things I associate words like 'winds' with societal conflicts or phrases like 'raising the dead' with strengthening the spirit and renewing it with hope.


Friends, if my interpretations are incorrect I will acknowledge so, and so, I look forward to our usual opportunity to learn and grow together in good and sound judgement, and in renewed hope.

Regards,
Brandon

 

[Downunder]

Not equivalent to speaking in angelic tongues as occurred at Pentecost and afterwards, but the gift of prophecy poured out upon the most unlikely ...
1Samuel 19:
18 Now David fled and escaped, and he came to Samuel at Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt at Nai′oth.
19 And it was told Saul, “Behold, David is at Nai′oth in Ramah.”
20 Then Saul sent messengers to take David; and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.
21 When it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied.
22 Then he himself went to Ramah, and came to the great well that is in Secu; and he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?” And one said, “Behold, they are at Nai′oth in Ramah.”
23 And he went from there to Nai′oth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, and as he went he prophesied, until he came to Nai′oth in Ramah.
24 And he too stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel, and lay naked all that day and all that night. Hence it is said, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

Although when the gift of prophecy is operated at our church meeting no one strips off and lies naked. All done decently and in order.

 

[twcstp111]

Well, there's the clothing that we wear, and there's the garments that we're built up in (for instance, exodus 28:2 2 Make holy garments for your brother Aaron, to give him glory and splendor. )

 

[B-A-C]

Not equivalent to speaking in angelic tongues as occurred at Pentecost

I'm not sure it was all angelic language at this time.

Acts 2:8; "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
Acts 2:9; "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Acts 2:10; Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Acts 2:11; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."

Also there was more than one day of Pentecost. ( Acts 20:16; 1Cor 16:8; )
I have no scripture to support it, but my "opinion" is that this was likely an annual event for many years.

 

[Downunder]

I'm not sure it was all angelic language at this time.

The NT began with a bang ...
Acts 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said,

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.

How is this possible? 120 people in an upper room all ecstatically speaking in tongues at the same time and yet the multitude heard some dozen specific discernible languages all at the same time. Miraculous is what happened here. The first miracle of interpretation given out in the first church meeting on Pentecost.

1Cor 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

1Cor 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.

This is how thousands of peoples heard 120 Spirit-filled Christians all speaking in tongues at the same time as discernible languages in their ears.

 

[Downunder]

Let me bump this thread up as it appears to be languishing
the real issue - the great controversy - about praying or speaking in tongues is about tongues being the Bible evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:14 And afterward he was manifested to the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him risen from the dead.
15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

the verses that those who cannot do the above love to hate.

 

[PearlB]

I have never doubted that speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift. I pray in tongues and also sing in tongues in my own private prayer time. Until I was baptised in the Holy Spirit I couldn't do it. And my first manifestation of it was in my kitchen; I just started to sing in tongues and I recognised that what I was singing was repeating - like verses - same tune but different words. This went on for quite some time until the tune was locked inside my head. After that I began to sing the same tune in English and immediately wrote down the words. I never wrote down the tune but I can still sing 'my song' which I later realised is a personal prophetic word which I still sing to myself.

 

[Downunder]

thankyou for sharing that @PearlB

1Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[Reba1]

Division comes quickly when folks use terms like MUST and ALWAYS. My Grandma C, would not believe one was saved if they did not 'speak tongues. Grandma A would often pray in the spirit but did not put forth the absolute one must speak in tongues to be saved. ( My real Grand mothers) The advent of computers has mellowed many ideals , I searched the Scriptures via computer and could not find the term 'Heavenly Language! I was surprised, I grew up hearing the term as if it was Scripture. Paul writes 'the tongues of angels'. Often we read into a verse that which is not there. I have no doubt both my Grandmas are with Jesus.

Waiting in church after the alter call and hearing 'the prayer warriors " using mans pressure to force tongues on some one i find to be unscriptural . Been in church settings where tongues and holy rolling was the norm been i church settings where things were done in order. If Granny Alexander ( not my Grandma) did not get the chance to dance to "I'll fly Away she did not think she had church. Too often looking for the sensational leads to the likes of Bethel church.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Having heard and prayed in tongues sill i have yet to the see the tongues of fire as stated here :
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

 

[B-A-C]

Having heard and prayed in tongues sill i have yet to the see the tongues of fire as stated here :
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

It seems this is only mentioned in the Acts 2 incident, but none of the other "baptized in the Holy Spirit"
passages in Acts. (The disciples at Ephesus, the Samaritans, Cornelius, and Paul ) although they did all speak in tongues.

 

[Reba1]

It seems this is only mentioned in the Acts 2 incident, but none of the other "baptized in the Holy Spirit"
passages in Acts. (The disciples at Ephesus, the Samaritans, Cornelius, and Paul ) although they did all speak in tongues.

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The repeat Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Just noticed how often we today say Holy Spirit while the Scripture uses the term Holy Ghost more often..

NT: 89 verses found, 90 matches Holy Ghost
4 verses found, 4 matches Holy Spirit
to me the 2 terms have always been inter changeable maybe they are not.

 

[Reba1]

A thought as i am reading about baptism , Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit... We read of the tongues of fire in Acts 2:3
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

In these verses there is not the laying on of the hands of men. A quick study of the 'other Holy Ghost baptism verses ' i read the hands of men.. Could it be a point?

 

[B-A-C]

to me the 2 terms have always been inter changeable maybe they are not.

I have always heard they are... but it might be an interesting study to see. You're right though, the word "ghost" seems to have fallen out of favor. Perhaps it has negative connotations to some?
King James uses the phrase "Holy Ghost" 89 times in the New testament.

In these verses there is not the laying on of the hands of men. A quick study of the 'other Holy Ghost baptism verses ' i read the hands of men.. Could it be a point?

Before Acts 2, who would have had the Holy Spirit who could have lain hands on them previously? Perhaps John the Baptist, but he was beheaded already.
To me, it seems the Acts 2 event was probably unique in some ways.

Besides the cloves of fire, there was also the sound, the "mighty rushing wind". Neither of those are mentioned elsewhere.

 

[Reba1]

Let me bump this thread up as it appears to be languishing
the real issue - the great controversy - about praying or speaking in tongues is about tongues being the Bible evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:14 And afterward he was manifested to the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him risen from the dead.
15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

the verses that those who cannot do the above love to hate.

By adding the snarky note "the verses that those who cannot do the above love to hate." Brings on the challenge, are the hospitals in your area empty.?

 

[B-A-C]

." Brings on the challenge, are the hospitals in your area empty.?

I get what you are saying here. I agree to a point, but even Jesus didn't completely clear out the hospitals.

Matt 13:58; And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

I can't speak for Downunder, but I will say the hospitals here are no where near full. There are plenty of empty beds.
They've even lain off some health workers here since the Covid thing started.
While they still have plenty of sick, wounded people.... I do believe the church has reduced the load on hospitals.

 

[Downunder]

Exodus 13:21 And YHVH went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night.
13:22 The pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not depart from before the people.
> water baptism
Exodus 14:21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and YHVH drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
14:22 And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore.
----
Exodus 24:16 The glory of the LORD dwelt on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
24:17 Now the appearance of the glory of the LORD was like a devouring fire on the top of the mountain in the sight of the people of Israel.

Exodus 40:38 For the cloud of the LORD was on the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel throughout all their journeys.

1Kings 18:21 And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If YHVH is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
18:24 And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of YHVH, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”
18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “YHVH, he is God; YHVH, he is God.”

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.
2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.