The "elect"

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

What you have already shown is your understanding of the use of the personal pronouns in chapter one of Ephesians, but that is justifiably open to dispute, especially as it flies in the face of the exposition of every other expositor I have heard on this chapter. If Paul refers to his hearers ethnicity at all at any time, specifically, as in verses 12 & 13, it is for a purpose, and is an aside; it does not influence the fact that the 'whole' is related to the company being addressed in his salutation in verse 1. To confine the we 'group' as you call it, of verses 1-11 to the Jews who first trusted is not correct, for the blessings itemized there are for all the company to whom the letter is addressed.

By interpreting the words 'the Beloved' which refers to our risen and glorified Lord, in relation to Israel, ;you are depriving yourself of the wondrous knowledge of oneness with Him.

There is no more that I can say to you on this, for we are obviously very different in our understanding. May God, in His mercy and grace, give enlightenment to each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Again, it's not "my understanding". Its the rules of grammar. The purpose of first and second person plural pronouns is to distinguish between two groups of people. That the purpose of them. We can ignore them if we choose to and claim the passage refers to who we want it to refer to. But, that doesn change the purpose of the pronouns. They serve a specific purpose.

I'm really perplexed as to why you continue to argue this point when, as I've pointed out, Paul plainly states who both groups are. In this book he's only comparing two groups, Jews and Genitles. Thus his use of we and you.

And again, the term "the beloved" is a term Moses used for Israel. If you look it up in the OT you find that to be the case.

Also, again, verses 3-11 are not promises. They are competed acts of God. These are things he has already done for the nation of Israel.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

Again, it's not "my understanding". Its the rules of grammar. The purpose of first and second person plural pronouns is to distinguish between two groups of people. That the purpose of them. We can ignore them if we choose to and claim the passage refers to who we want it to refer to. But, that doesn change the purpose of the pronouns. They serve a specific purpose.

I'm really perplexed as to why you continue to argue this point when, as I've pointed out, Paul plainly states who both groups are. In this book he's only comparing two groups, Jews and Genitles. Thus his use of we and you.

And again, the term "the beloved" is a term Moses used for Israel. If you look it up in the OT you find that to be the case.

Also, again, verses 3-11 are not promises. They are competed acts of God. These are things he has already done for the nation of Israel.

Hello @Butch5,

It is indeed 'your' understanding. The understanding of how the rules of grammar should be applied in this case. There is no question of ignoring them, but of applying them correctly. Your perplexity is unfounded, for it is your application that is being questioned and not the rules of grammar.

I have no problem with the application of the word, 'Beloved', to Moses in the Old Testament, as it is to others too for that matter. However in Ephesians 1:6, it is the Lord Jesus Christ that is being referred to; for in verse 7, it goes on to say that in Him we have redemption and the forgiveness of sins, which certainly does not apply to Moses. You are ignoring the context to your detriment, Butch5.

I did not say that verses 3-11 are promises, but blessings, which they most assuredly are. Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

It is indeed 'your' understanding. The understanding of how the rules of grammar should be applied in this case. There is no question of ignoring them, but of applying them correctly. Your perplexity is unfounded, for it is your application that is being questioned and not the rules of grammar.

I have no problem with the application of the word, 'Beloved', to Moses in the Old Testament, as it is to others too for that matter. However in Ephesians 1:6, it is the Lord Jesus Christ that is being referred to; for in verse 7, it goes on to say that in Him we have redemption and the forgiveness of sins, which certainly does not apply to Moses. You are ignoring the context to your detriment, Butch5.

I did not say that verses 3-11 are promises, but blessings, which they most assuredly are. Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

It's not "my understanding" when Paul tells us who these two groups are.

If it's my understanding please explain how we and you, both plural, refers to one group of people. Can you show me from a grammar where first and second plural pronouns refer to the same person or group? I believe by saying its "my understanding" you're simply trying to dismiss the evidence. This is a debate tactic I see often. Please, explain how first and second personal plural pronouns can refer to one and the same entity.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

It's not "my understanding" when Paul tells us who these two groups are.

If it's my understanding please explain how we and you, both plural, refers to one group of people. Can you show me from a grammar where first and second plural pronouns refer to the same person or group? I believe by saying its "my understanding" you're simply trying to dismiss the evidence. This is a debate tactic I see often. Please, explain how first and second personal plural pronouns can refer to one and the same entity.

Hello @Butch5,

Does he? Let us see what Paul actually does use these personal pronouns:-

(1) 'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
(2) Grace be to you, and peace,
from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

* This is the address on the envelope.

(3) ' Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(4) According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(6) To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in The Beloved.
(7) In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
(8) Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
(9) Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
(10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
(11) In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

* The words 'us' and 'we' throughout these passages refer to both his listeners and to Paul himself the writer.

(12) That we should be to the praise of His glory, Who first trusted in Christ.

* The word 'we' here refers to those who had first trusted in Christ. So, in referring to his listeners who had trusted in Christ after hearing the gospel of their salvation, had also trusted, Paul uses the word 'ye':-

(13) In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

* Then Paul includes them with Himself once again with the use of the word 'our' in the following verse:-

(14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

* Then Paul refers to them again in relation to their faith, and love unto all the saints, and uses the word 'your', and continuing to do so in the verses which follow in the prayer he makes for them:-

(15) Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
(16) Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

* Here I have done as you asked and looked at the use that Paul has made of these personal pronouns. I have not, as you say, sought by using the words 'your understanding' to dismiss any evidence you have provided: but sought to make clear that I believe the evidence you have provided to be emanating from your understanding and not from the use Paul has made of the personal pronouns himself.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

It's not "my understanding" when Paul tells us who these two groups are.

If it's my understanding please explain how we and you, both plural, refers to one group of people. Can you show me from a grammar where first and second plural pronouns refer to the same person or group? I believe by saying its "my understanding" you're simply trying to dismiss the evidence. This is a debate tactic I see often. Please, explain how first and second personal plural pronouns can refer to one and the same entity.

Hello again, @Butch5,

I believe that Paul is not talking to two 'groups', but to individuals from both Jew and Gentile who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ; so that the collective words, 'we' and 'you' are no problem.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

Hello @Sue D,

I so wanted to click the 'like' button in regard to this post, because I agree with what you say, however, I could not because of your reference to 'The Bride'. For as a member of the church which is Christ's Body, which is referred to as 'a perfect man' (Ephesians 4:13), I am not a member of that company.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Eph. 4:13 -- "till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; " In my NKJ Bible, I have a cross reference to Colo2:2 and 1 Corinthains 14:20

Colossians 2:2 "that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of he mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ."
1 Corinthians 14:20 "Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature."

Well -- born again believers Are the Bride of Christ. Are you questioning Christ being referred to a 'a perfect man' -- when Christ was here on earth, He was indeed 'a perfect man'. The Man, Christ Jesus. He was here as God Incarnate.
Or are you concerned that born again believers are supposed to be perfect. Which we aren't.

So -- what do you mean by saying that you're not a member of that company.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Does he? Let us see what Paul actually does use these personal pronouns:-

(1) 'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
(2) Grace be to you, and peace,
from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

* This is the address on the envelope.

(3) ' Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(4) According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(6) To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in The Beloved.
(7) In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
(8) Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
(9) Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
(10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
(11) In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

* The words 'us' and 'we' throughout these passages refer to both his listeners and to Paul himself the writer.

(12) That we should be to the praise of His glory, Who first trusted in Christ.

* The word 'we' here refers to those who had first trusted in Christ. So, in referring to his listeners who had trusted in Christ after hearing the gospel of their salvation, had also trusted, Paul uses the word 'ye':-

(13) In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

* Then Paul includes them with Himself once again with the use of the word 'our' in the following verse:-

(14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

* Then Paul refers to them again in relation to their faith, and love unto all the saints, and uses the word 'your', and continuing to do so in the verses which follow in the prayer he makes for them:-

(15) Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
(16) Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

* Here I have done as you asked and looked at the use that Paul has made of these personal pronouns. I have not, as you say, sought by using the words 'your understanding' to dismiss any evidence you have provided: but sought to make clear that I believe the evidence you have provided to be emanating from your understanding and not from the use Paul has made of the personal pronouns himself.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, he does.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

He says, "you Gentiles in the flesh". So we know the "you" group is the Gentiles. Was Paul a Gentile? No, he wasn't. He was an Israelite. Since his contrast in this book is the Israelites and the Gentiles the "we" group is obviously the Israelites.

However, you didnt do as I requested. I asked if you would present a grammar showing that the use of first and second person personal plural pronouns can refer to a single entity. It doesn't matter if it's a Greek grammar or an Emglish grammar. I just ask that it's a reputable one.

Another point to be noted is that the first person plural pronouns can be inclusive or exclusive. Which it is must be determined from the context. Example,

Johnny, pack up your things, we have to go.

Here "we" is being used in an inclusive way. Johnny is included in the action. However, it can also be used exclusively.

Johnny, we went to the movies last night. You should have come with us.

Here "we" is being used exclusively. Johnny is not included in the action. It's all determined by the context.

Looking at the context, Paul says the "we" group had received an inheritance. That's past tense. They had already received it. The Israelites did receive an inheritance and it was in the past when Paul wrote. However, the Gentiles had not received and inheritance. Paul says they had received a down payment on a future inheritance. Thus, the Gentiles are excluded from the "we" in verses 3-12.

 

[complete]

Eph. 4:13 -- "till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; " In my NKJ Bible, I have a cross reference to Colo2:2 and 1 Corinthains 14:20

Colossians 2:2 "that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of he mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ."
1 Corinthians 14:20 "Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature."

Well -- born again believers Are the Bride of Christ. Are you questioning Christ being referred to a 'a perfect man' -- when Christ was here on earth, He was indeed 'a perfect man'. The Man, Christ Jesus. He was here as God Incarnate.
Or are you concerned that born again believers are supposed to be perfect. Which we aren't.

So -- what do you mean by saying that you're not a member of that company.

'... ... we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ... ... '
(Eph 4:13)

Hello @Sue D,

I am guilty of derailing this thread already I fear, and in responding to this I am in danger of doing so again. However, I believe your understanding concerning that term 'the Bride of Christ' and my own may differ, and that we could be in danger of talking at cross purposes. So, rather than proceeding further here, I will look for a thread which has already been started on this subject, and respond to you there.

Thank you for responding to my post, Sue.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- your use of 'inclusive / exclusive' -- you enjoy the technicalities. Do you really read what's being said in Scripture. Or do you just enjoy a good 'technicalities' debate.

Whatever happened to believers building each other up in the faith.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- your use of 'inclusive / exclusive' -- you enjoy the technicalities. Do you really read what's being said in Scripture. Or do you just enjoy a good 'technicalities' debate.

Whatever happened to believers building each other up in the faith.

Your question, how ironic.

 

[complete]

Yes, he does.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

He says, "you Gentiles in the flesh". So we know the "you" group is the Gentiles. Was Paul a Gentile? No, he wasn't. He was an Israelite. Since his contrast in this book is the Israelites and the Gentiles the "we" group is obviously the Israelites.

However, you didnt do as I requested. I asked if you would present a grammar showing that the use of first and second person personal plural pronouns can refer to a single entity. It doesn't matter if it's a Greek grammar or an Emglish grammar. I just ask that it's a reputable one.

Another point to be noted is that the first person plural pronouns can be inclusive or exclusive. Which it is must be determined from the context. Example,

Johnny, pack up your things, we have to go.

Here "we" is being used in an inclusive way. Johnny is included in the action. However, it can also be used exclusively.

Johnny, we went to the movies last night. You should have come with us.

Here "we" is being used exclusively. Johnny is not included in the action. It's all determined by the context.

Looking at the context, Paul says the "we" group had received an inheritance. That's past tense. They had already received it. The Israelites did receive an inheritance and it was in the past when Paul wrote. However, the Gentiles had not received and inheritance. Paul says they had received a down payment on a future inheritance. Thus, the Gentiles are excluded from the "we" in verses 3-12.

Hello @Butch5,

You fail to realise that Paul was talking to the saints at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus. They were, regardless of their ethnicity, one in Christ, as He was, they were One in Spirit: so the words 'we' and 'us' and 'our' are inclusive of them and Paul himself. His reference to his hearers as gentiles was subject specific, and therefore does not affect the inclusive nature of the whole.

In regard to the tenses concerning the inheritance, it was secured for them in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world, that is why it is referred to in a past tense.

This is becoming ridiculous now, Butch5, I think we should stop now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

Your question, how ironic.

What is ironic about it.

"Complete" just decided to drop the conversation with you.

Apparently you haven't been very uplifting.

Has it occurred to you that you Might be turning people Off from Scripture. Just suggesting.

 

[Sue D.]

'... ... we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: ... ... '
(Eph 4:13)

Hello @Sue D,

I am guilty of derailing this thread already I fear, and in responding to this I am in danger of doing so again. However, I believe your understanding concerning that term 'the Bride of Christ' and my own may differ, and that we could be in danger of talking at cross purposes. So, rather than proceeding further here, I will look for a thread which has already been started on this subject, and respond to you there.

Thank you for responding to my post, Sue.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Unless you'd consider going to 'conversation' area to continue.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

You fail to realise that Paul was talking to the saints at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus. They were, regardless of their ethnicity, one in Christ, as He was, they were One in Spirit: so the words 'we' and 'us' and 'our' are inclusive of them and Paul himself. His reference to his hearers as gentiles was subject specific, and therefore does not affect the inclusive nature of the whole.

In regard to the tenses concerning the inheritance, it was secured for them in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world, that is why it is referred to in a past tense.

This is becoming ridiculous now, Butch5, I think we should stop now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I havent failed to realize that. I went to the trouble of pointing out that the saints in the instance was a reference to the Israelites.

You might have been able toake the claim that the, we, us, our, was inclusive if Paul hadn't specifically contrasted the group to the Gentiles. But he did.

And again, the inheritance that Paul speaks of as being received is contrasted with the down payment of the inheritance the Gentiles will receive. Thus it's not talking about the same inheritance.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- people aren't always going to agree with you.

In some thread you commented that you're Not a dispensationalist. Well -- others' of us Are. And That will make a difference.

 

[Butch5]

What is ironic about it.

"Complete" just decided to drop the conversation with you.

Apparently you haven't been very uplifting.

Has it occurred to you that you Might be turning people Off from Scripture. Just suggesting.

What's ironic is that all of your posts to me do anything but build up.

Again how ironic.

No it hasn't occurred to me. I dont think anyone who is truly seeking the truth would be turned off by seriously looking into the depths of Scripture.

 

[Sue D.]

So anyone who is truly seeking the truth will agree with you as you seriously look into the depths of Scripture. I guess it depends on what a person is trying to prove as they delve Into Scripture.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- seems that you and I usually end up being at 'cross hairs' with each other. Time to bow out - again.

 

[complete]

@Butch5 -- people aren't always going to agree with you.

In some thread you commented that you're Not a dispensationalist. Well -- others' of us Are. And That will make a difference.

Hi Sue D,

Yes, I saw your pm. I will be back to you tomorrow (God willing)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

I haven't failed to realize that. I went to the trouble of pointing out that the saints in the instance was a reference to the Israelites.

You might have been able toake the claim that the, we, us, our, was inclusive if Paul hadn't specifically contrasted the group to the Gentiles. But he did.

And again, the inheritance that Paul speaks of as being received is contrasted with the down payment of the inheritance the Gentiles will receive. Thus it's not talking about the same inheritance.

Hello Butch5,

Please do not be offended by me, for I wish you well, however, I can't agree with your thoughts regarding these things, and as we have debated this for some time with little headway, I think it best for me to back away.. May God's perfect will be done in each one for us, for His Name and Glory's sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris