Dave M
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are you suggesting that only the Jews were predestined for salvation?
The "elect"
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are you suggesting that only the Jews were predestined for salvation?
PloughBoy
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Do anybody know or ever uses the term "The Olivet Discourse" instead of typing all of those verses. Just by saying the "Olivet Dis-course" tells the complete story that is recorded in the "Synoptics" why is so hard hard for the majority of "christians' to understand that. I learn these things over 40 years ago from teenagers coming out of high school, into Bible College training for the jungles of the real missionary fields, teen age boys and girls, it shame me to be a 20 year old among kids, who knew more about christainty than most church going chrostians. It shame me into personal study. and it made me understand what this text of "Scripture" really meant:
New American Standard Bible
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
and on "Appreciation Days", I heard how those same kids went to the missionary fields , and was torture, rape, die of diseases, and animals and bug bites, hot Temperatures, captured by Guerrillas, warlords, and still loved their captures and rapists into the examples of christainity into "Christ". Their captures could not understand why these young man and women still did not hate them, by what they had done to them, and how many times they wanted to learn about this new religion. How could they take so much pain and endurer so much suffering from them. and Still talk about this God and The New Kingdom to come.
That Reformed Bible College and the students it turn out, turn my world upside down as a new "Convent". Nothing like the churches i Knew anything about. This college and students was about bible and not church! A lot of the students parents, most were angry at the college and the students decisons of going to "hostile' areas. Tears ran high at a lot of these "Appreciation Days" on both sides of the fence! I had never saw nothing like this in my life! Christainity was,love your next door neighbor, smile at people, forgive people who said something bad about you, do not steal, or kill, and don't say bad words, and go to church, and sunday school, and wednesday night bible class. That was the "christianity" i knew! " Reformed Bible College" gave me a different picture! The Bible Came alive! Living color, This is something I witness to, and not reading in the reading room of my cozy house in my reading chair, and the reading lamb above my head, and the cracking of the "smokeless-logs" in my fireplace. and the "Homemade" throw blanket across my lap, and my feet upon the footstool. And my cup of Tea sitting on The Hammond Ogan chair in front of our Hammond Organ! That the only one in the house that can play, would not even play "Amazing Grace"!
Sometimes I am ashamed to sit in my own house!, Just to read the bible, How could i dare to complain about anything! When Apostle Paul and John, struggle to find a fragment of a candleLight in a dark & dreary dampness of a dungeon. To write, even The Prison Epistles. Such dis couragement I can imagine. Yet instill they were "Chosen" vessels, "Elect" of God In more ways Than One!
If you ever been in a place of a group of people "elected" and then within that group "elected" again, and again and again in that elected group. It gets old!
and you get tried of being chosen! And when you read you Bible as a "son of GOD" you know, you better not complain. It is like God is Standing over your shoulder, waiting for you to complain. You can feel Him. with a Parental reaction.
LOL! you have read JOB, Moses, and Arron, AND THE "ISRAELITES" TRAVLING IN THE WILDERNESS ! You See, The Elect within "The Elect" knows better!"Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?+
"But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."
Concerning 'The Elect" of GOD. is not narrow, It has a broader sense as well. We have the depths of Gods word, the heights. the width of God"s word. Some Times I think we only view God in Human terms or Super human terms. inwhich both cannot fit into the "Divinity" Although "anthropomorphically" it can be, maybe. but there are always the "Elect" of GOD within "The Elect" of GOD on a number of ocassions within the "Bible". we all of GOD knows this, "Truth".
Butch5
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No one was predestined to salvation. Predestination has nothing to do with salvation.
PloughBoy
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who said so?
Butch5
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Can you show me where anyone was predestined to be saved?
Butch5
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Still not sure how this pertains to what I said.Do anybody know or ever uses the term "The Olivet Discourse" instead of typing all of those verses. Just by saying the "Olivet Dis-course" tells the complete story that is recorded in the "Synoptics" why is so hard hard for the majority of "christians' to understand that. I learn these things over 40 years ago from teenagers coming out of high school, into Bible College training for the jungles of the real missionary fields, teen age boys and girls, it shame me to be a 20 year old among kids, who knew more about christainty than most church going chrostians. It shame me into personal study. and it made me understand what this text of "Scripture" really meant:
New American Standard Bible
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
and on "Appreciation Days", I heard how those same kids went to the missionary fields , and was torture, rape, die of diseases, and animals and bug bites, hot Temperatures, captured by Guerrillas, warlords, and still loved their captures and rapists into the examples of christainity into "Christ". Their captures could not understand why these young man and women still did not hate them, by what they had done to them, and how many times they wanted to learn about this new religion. How could they take so much pain and endurer so much suffering from them. and Still talk about this God and The New Kingdom to come.
That Reformed Bible College and the students it turn out, turn my world upside down as a new "Convent". Nothing like the churches i Knew anything about. This college and students was about bible and not church! A lot of the students parents, most were angry at the college and the students decisons of going to "hostile' areas. Tears ran high at a lot of these "Appreciation Days" on both sides of the fence! I had never saw nothing like this in my life! Christainity was,love your next door neighbor, smile at people, forgive people who said something bad about you, do not steal, or kill, and don't say bad words, and go to church, and sunday school, and wednesday night bible class. That was the "christianity" i knew! " Reformed Bible College" gave me a different picture! The Bible Came alive! Living color, This is something I witness to, and not reading in the reading room of my cozy house in my reading chair, and the reading lamb above my head, and the cracking of the "smokeless-logs" in my fireplace. and the "Homemade" throw blanket across my lap, and my feet upon the footstool. And my cup of Tea sitting on The Hammond Ogan chair in front of our Hammond Organ! That the only one in the house that can play, would not even play "Amazing Grace"!
Sometimes I am ashamed to sit in my own house!, Just to read the bible, How could i dare to complain about anything! When Apostle Paul and John, struggle to find a fragment of a candleLight in a dark & dreary dampness of a dungeon. To write, even The Prison Epistles. Such dis couragement I can imagine. Yet instill they were "Chosen" vessels, "Elect" of God In more ways Than One!
If you ever been in a place of a group of people "elected" and then within that group "elected" again, and again and again in that elected group. It gets old!
and you get tried of being chosen! And when you read you Bible as a "son of GOD" you know, you better not complain. It is like God is Standing over your shoulder, waiting for you to complain. You can feel Him. with a Parental reaction.
"Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?+
"But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."
Concerning 'The Elect" of GOD. is not narrow, It has a broader sense as well. We have the depths of Gods word, the heights. the width of God"s word. Some Times I think we only view God in Human terms or Super human terms. inwhich both cannot fit into the "Divinity" Although "anthropomorphically" it can be, maybe. but there are always the "Elect" of GOD within "The Elect" of GOD on a number of ocassions within the "Bible". we all of GOD knows this, "Truth".
PloughBoy
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you made a statement. i didn't. you said: "No one was predestined to salvation. Predestination has nothing to do with salvation." that is a powerful "English syntax". Stated as if you was GOD HimSelf and was appointed to speak on His Behalf as Divine "Truth" with no room for error!
You not even take role of Saying "I believe" that no one is Predestined to salvation and I believe the word predestination has nothing to do with salvation.
But instead you made a declaration and said; NO One Was predestined to salvation. And when you said "No One" that also meant that evern Jesus himself was not Predestinate from the Corruption of The Grave! Who took on the sins of the world and The Word of GOD said also:"Curse is anyone WHo Hangs On a Tree" so Jesus his self Became a Curse ,because "He Hung on a Tree"! And you stated "NO One" is Predestined to be "SAVED"!
He predestined
προώρισεν (proōrisen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 4309: To foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand. From pro and horizo; to limit in advance, i.e. predetermine.
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?…
A fallen Creature never surrenders all, but it must keep something for itself to claim. for This was "Inherit" from the mixture of "Adam and Eve" born of a corrupted seed, purpose to take credit from GOD, even if it is 1 iota from an inch. And some wonder about that "grace" that is needed for the "iota" from and the inch. For clarifacation, for that "iota"of the inch some proclaimed, for their redemption it Costs the "Life of The Son of The Living God" to redemn them.. And some still have not repented of and some are still taking the credit for it and boasting about what they have done. and they have refused, that it was "God" the Father who LOve them from the Foundations of The World before he created anything , Heaven and Earth He Chose them to become the "Sons of GOD" elected chosen and ordain for it to be so, and that seed was engrave in them, the very make up into what they would eventually will be! and to be revealed to them on that "Coronation Day". The "sons of GOD" the ones who had been hidden from the "Foundations" of the World and only been recently been revealed in "Jesus Christ" a Particular or "peculair people" chosen of GOD"! Now do not stuggle yourself, for this is a Language hidden within a Language that only the "Peculiar People" can understand. For we need no translators! And How does GOD do this, Dont ask me! But He does! And this is only one story of the "Elect" of GOD" and in there are more. Is it not amazing how the OT tells the stories of the things to come. Once you get beyond the "elementary", as the word has commanded.
PloughBoy
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But I like "Bible Truth"! and sound "Exegesis" and dislikes force "Eisegesis" and biblical speculations and idealism of any kinds.
Walking with GOD or trying to walk with Him according to the Bible is no picnic. i do admit. our minds slip so easy upon the things of this world. I have to bring my mind into check. and focus on the Word of GOD. especially the OT stories about His character.
Butch5
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Yes, I made that statement because I've read the Bible.
I'm aware of what Reformation theology is.
The passage you quoted from Romans 8 is referring to the Jews. However, it doesn't say they were predestined to be saved. Paul gives a list of things that God did for those who He Predestined, but notice the qualifier, those who love Him. The Jews were all predeatined. They weren't all saved.
Butch5
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Sound exegesis will show that the Elect are Israel.
PloughBoy
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"Reformed Theology" is a Broad field, which part are in familar with?
Butch5
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I used to be Reformed
PloughBoy
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just one more "school of Thought"
PloughBoy
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ok
PloughBoy
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May i ask: what is a "Satanic Eternal Damnationists" and who coined that term? curious, i am!
complete
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'And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.'
(Mat 24:31)
Hello @B-A-C,
The margin of my Bible takes me back to Deuteronomy 30:4:-
'And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee,
.. the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee,
.... and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations,
...... whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
And shalt return unto the LORD thy God,
.. and shalt obey His voice according to all that I command thee this day,
.... thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity,
.. and have compassion upon thee,
.... and will return and gather thee from all the nations,
...... whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
........ If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven,
.......... from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee,
............ and from thence will he fetch thee:
(Deutteronomy 30:1-4)
* This is obviously referring to the Children of Israel.
* Election means to choose or select. God claims to do this in regard to:-
- Israel - (Deuteronomy 7:6-7)
- Jerusalem - (Zechariah 1:17)
- Aaron - (Numbers 16:5-7)
- David - (2 Samuel 6:21)
- The Twelve - (John 6:70; Acts 1:2)
- Paul - (Acts 9:15)
and others.
* Paul wrote to the Thessalonians:-
'But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto He called you by our gospel,
to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.'
(2 Thessalonians 2:13)
* Peter wrote to the Dispersion:-
'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.'
(1 Peter 1:1-2)
* Both these passages show the 'means' and 'the end in view'.
* In both the Old and New Testaments, and regarding members of the several different callings, the redeemed are called 'the elect';
- 'Israel Mine elect' - (Isaiah 45:4)
- Those on the earth at the time of the second coming - (Matthew 24:31)
- Those who came under the first ministry of the Apostle Paul - (Romans 8:33)
- Those who came under the second (or prison ministry) of the Apostle Paul - (Colossians 3:12)
- Those called by the Apostles of the Circumcision - (1 Peter1:2; 2 John 1) - in contrast with the bulk of Israel at that time.
- Paul speaks of the remnant of Israel as 'the election' (Romans 1:5,7)
* This election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God the Father' as we can see in 1 Peter 1:2, (2 Peter 3:17). A parallel passage in some sense is that in which the Apostle Paul speaks not of election, but of predestination saying:- 'Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate ... ' (Romans 8::29). It is important to come to an understanding of 'foreknowledge' in regard to this subject of 'election' I feel.
* Occurances of the word 'foreknowledge' ( or 'to know beforehand'):- Acts 2:23; Acts 26:4-5; Romans 8:29; Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:17.
- It is used of God in connection with Christ and His sacrifice for sin
- It is used of God in connection with His people who are called the elect, or the chosen.
- It is used of man in the sense of knowing beforehand, or of having previous information.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
;
Dave M
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Butch5
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Hi Dave,
If we read the entire book Paul opens with an address to the church in general. Then at 2:17 he begins to address the Jewish believers. He says, behold you are called a Jew and make your boast in the Law. He continues to address them all the way through to 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles, for I say to you Gentiles.
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Hello Butch5,
I am interested, as I enter this thread for the first time today, to see what you have to say on this subject, for knowing that we agree on one subject at least, I am eager to know where we also agree in others.
I agree that predestination has nothing to do with salvation. However, I question what you say in this post quoted above. For after the great thesis of the epistle has been stated in Romans 1:17, Paul turns aside to establish the utter need of both Gentile (Romans 1:18-32) and Jew (Romans 2:1-29), and then the whole world in ( Romans 3:19), Romans 1:18 to 3:20 is one large section of this epistle devoted mainly to the establishment of the utter need of all men for the provision of grace in the gospel. It opens with the testimony of creation, and the things that may be known of God; it closes with the testimony of the law, and the knowledge of sin.
In Romans 2:17 he does not ' begin' an address to the Jew, for he has been contrasting Jew and Gentile throughout the verses leading up to it., similarly with 11:13.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I disagree when you say he's not addressing the Jews. He states outright, behold you are a Jew. The Gentiles weren't Jews. But if we continue to read on he confirms this with statements in the next several chapters. I'm not at my computer to post a bunch of passages. But for instance, I think it's Romans 4 where he speaks of Abraham and says, 'our father according to the flesh. Abraham was the fleshly father of the Jews not the Gentiles. He also makes mention, I think in chapter 7, of we who are under the Law. That was the Jews. The Gentiles weren't under the Law. There are others but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
