who are those that came out of the great tribulation????

[DieAmartyr]

Penta simply means 5. The first five books of the bible is called the pentateuch. Surely you dont think the first five books of the bible is satanic?

No I don't but surely you don't think Satanists wear a pentagram for no reason? This was printed by a Christian church in relation to occult symbols

Inverted pentagram: Used in cultic and satanic rituals to
conjure up evil spirits. It is important to note that with ‘2
points up’ this symbol is typically tied to Satanism.
If you are in doubt about a symbol, do not use it. You can do an internet search for
occult symbols to see if you find it. As Christians we must be sober. We should not
wear or in any way display symbols that do not glorify God.

 

[Brad Huber]

No I don't but surely you don't think Satanists wear a pentagram for no reason? This was printed by a Christian church in relation to occult symbols

Inverted pentagram: Used in cultic and satanic rituals to
conjure up evil spirits. It is important to note that with ‘2
points up’ this symbol is typically tied to Satanism.
If you are in doubt about a symbol, do not use it. You can do an internet search for
occult symbols to see if you find it. As Christians we must be sober. We should not
wear or in any way display symbols that do not glorify God.

I have seen tv shows with pentagrams used to call up evil spirits, but I have heard 2 different stories associated with it, one that says when you say some mumbo jumbo and the true name of the evil spirit, it shows up inside the pentagram and cant escape it unless you break the lines. The other myth was that you put yourself in the pentagram and call up the demon and the pentagram protects you from the demon tearing you apart. As far as I know, they are both myths. Have you ever witnessed such a satanic ritual to verify it? Where are you getting your info on it? Mind you, I wouldnt wear a pentagram because of what it is represented as today, if only as myth. I have heard of one of those goat statues holding children supposed to represent satan, which I hate, but not because thats what satan looks like, but because its the symbol that satanists supposedly worship. I happen to know that demons (which are spirits) are all over the place, except places that have been sanctified and Holy. I have done the casting out of evil spirits before, and it worked just like it did in scripture. You only need faith and the name of Jesus. I do not doubt that evil people who worship satan are also all over the place, and have their rituals and such, which may or may not have evil spiritual power, but again, it doesnt matter, its what faith they put into it that makes it dangerous and satan loves to twist us up and corrupt us any way he can.

But I dont assume just because someone has done something like draw circles or pentagrams or runes, etc can corrupt us, especially if we have the Holy Spirit. But I agree that hollywood and DC are both filled with lots of evil spirits controlling many in those areas.

 

[Sue D.]

There is definitely the Church of Satan in this country. Has been for many years. There are satanic groups that meet and do their rituals. They worship satan // we worship God. Decades ago when my husband was in Seminary -- one of the other students said that down the street from the Baptist church he went to , there was a Church of Satan. Said it gave him the creeps.

And there is spiritual warfare going on all around us.

There Are myths -- but these are not myths.

 

[DieAmartyr]

No I don't but surely you don't think Satanists wear a pentagram for no reason? This was printed by a Christian church in relation to occult symbols

Inverted pentagram: Used in cultic and satanic rituals to
conjure up evil spirits. It is important to note that with ‘2
points up’ this symbol is typically tied to Satanism.
If you are in doubt about a symbol, do not use it. You can do an internet search for
occult symbols to see if you find it. As Christians we must be sober. We should not
wear or in any way display symbols that do not glorify God.

I have seen tv shows with pentagrams used to call up evil spirits, but I have heard 2 different stories associated with it, one that says when you say some mumbo jumbo and the true name of the evil spirit, it shows up inside the pentagram and cant escape it unless you break the lines. The other myth was that you put yourself in the pentagram and call up the demon and the pentagram protects you from the demon tearing you apart. As far as I know, they are both myths. Have you ever witnessed such a satanic ritual to verify it? Where are you getting your info on it? Mind you, I wouldnt wear a pentagram because of what it is represented as today, if only as myth. I have heard of one of those goat statues holding children supposed to represent satan, which I hate, but not because thats what satan looks like, but because its the symbol that satanists supposedly worship. I happen to know that demons (which are spirits) are all over the place, except places that have been sanctified and Holy. I have done the casting out of evil spirits before, and it worked just like it did in scripture. You only need faith and the name of Jesus. I do not doubt that evil people who worship satan are also all over the place, and have their rituals and such, which may or may not have evil spiritual power, but again, it doesnt matter, its what faith they put into it that makes it dangerous and satan loves to twist us up and corrupt us any way he can.

But I dont assume just because someone has done something like draw circles or pentagrams or runes, etc can corrupt us, especially if we have the Holy Spirit. But I agree that hollywood and DC are both filled with lots of evil spirits controlling many in those areas.

Let me do you one better. In college I was on a full scholarship for softball and I came back from my a.m. classes and long story short got scared and got as far as saying satan I rebuke you when a demon entered my body through the top of my head and chased my soul down inside me while screaming at me in a disgusting, electronic sounding synthesized vile horrific voice in a foreign language. In my soul I SCREAMED for Jesus and it was forced out of me through the top of my head. I lay contorted on my bed, freaking out, terrified, I ran and called my Mom who felt it happen 300 miles away. My friend arrived shortly and she told me " demons speak through you- I wonder if anyone heard it." And she knocked on the door of the girls DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM ME and they had their room darkened, and had on black robes, the room lit by candles. My friend spoke to them in Spanish and they let her in. " girl come look at this!" They had pushed their beds back and had a big pentagram on the floor with candles at each point, and told my friend they were invoking demons. My friend kicked over their candles ( 2 of them) and started yelling at them in Spanish and threatening them. I must have opened a door to it on my own, but they made it possible through their practice so yeah. Pentagrams are no joke.

 

[Sue D.]

Don't care to hear any more horror stories.

 

[DieAmartyr]

Don't care to hear any more horror stories.

Horror stories? It lasted 6 seconds and is what brought me back to Jesus. Its not a " horror story" and I take offense to that . It is my true testimony and I was unaware that could actually happen to a person. It rattled the very membrane of my core, and when I prayed right after it happened I didnt feel better or even heard. I suffered from sleep paralysis for about 2 years afterwards while I strengthened my faith until I did not have it anymore. If anyone ever feels fear and wants to " rebuke" Satan, I URGE you to use the name of Jesus Christ before you rebuke. In my case I said it backwards and rebuked him as a mortal with no power behind it. You MUST use Jesus name first and then rebuke it! I wouldn't wish what happened to me on anyone- but if you believe the words of Jesus you know this is a real thing that can happen.

Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to him. He healed him, so that the man could both speak and see. Matthew 12:22

Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came and kept crying out, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely tormented by a demon. Matthew 15:22

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; Mark 16:17

You must not like to read your Bible then because of these " horror stories" you don't care to hear.

 

[Sue D.]

Okay -- I'll apologize for calling it a horror story.

And, yes, the New Testament is full of events that Jesus performed miracles to show the people that there was something more in life then 'them'. They knew that all those people could not function without help previously. They started realizing that Jesus Was special. He Could heal everything.

And, God will use what's need To bring us to Himself. He knew what was needed in Your life. However -- you continue on to share what the result of that experience was. And That is what makes Me 'wonder'. When Jesus Christ was healing people it was immediate and they were praising God. They were living a normal life right away. Doesn't sound like that was your case at all.

And Scripture says that when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the born again believer -- 'He' won't leave and He Also gives inner peace , love, joy, etc. -- in the New Testament the Holy Spirit stays in a person until they are with Jesus Christ

A believer Can't be demon-possessed. Something definitely happened to you. God Allows things to happen To bring us to Himself.

there was a lady here on Forum who felt she was called to a deliverance ministry -- maybe that was you? Maybe not. That a person can rebuke satan ourselves and caste out our own demons? Born again believers Can be Oppressed by satan.

People were brought To Jesus Chris for healing -- Jesus Christ caste out demons.

We Are warned to stay Away From , not mingle and try to caste Out. People on the mission field -- when confronted With demonic situations -- depend on spiritual strength from Jesus Christ. Their Aim on the mission field is to present the Gospel unto salvation to the people -- the Holy Spirit works in their hearts. They accept or reject.

I read my Bible every day. Our right relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Sue D.]

On one of these threads - you'd shared that your husband is in the Army -- has been for 13 yrs. Where is he stationed? What country ? Depending on where he's stationed -- wives / families can sometimes go to that country with them.
The lady who drives me to Monday evening Bible study -- her husband had been in the service and she and family moved with him to various countries. Soo -- where is he stationed?

 

[Dave M]

the point of this thread was to see if there is any proof that those coming out of the great tribulation were saved before or during the tribulation. the pre -trip theory says they were saved during the tribulation, so that means there would have to be a great revival during the tribulation. And the bible teaches the exact opposite, the bible teaches of a great falling away during end times, and the bible teaches no one repents during the tribualtion, SO I have to conclude these people are born again before the tribulation and are killed during the tribulation. Making the pre trib rapture a false hope IMO

THe bible also teaches GOd send delusions to the masses during tribulation so again there is does not seem to be a great revival during the tribulaton but a falling away and the bible clearly states no one repents so we are not going to see a lot of people getting saved during the tribulation.

 

[DieAmartyr]

Okay -- I'll apologize for calling it a horror story.

And, yes, the New Testament is full of events that Jesus performed miracles to show the people that there was something more in life then 'them'. They knew that all those people could not function without help previously. They started realizing that Jesus Was special. He Could heal everything.

And, God will use what's need To bring us to Himself. He knew what was needed in Your life. However -- you continue on to share what the result of that experience was. And That is what makes Me 'wonder'. When Jesus Christ was healing people it was immediate and they were praising God. They were living a normal life right away. Doesn't sound like that was your case at all.

And Scripture says that when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the born again believer -- 'He' won't leave and He Also gives inner peace , love, joy, etc. -- in the New Testament the Holy Spirit stays in a person until they are with Jesus Christ

A believer Can't be demon-possessed. Something definitely happened to you. God Allows things to happen To bring us to Himself.

there was a lady here on Forum who felt she was called to a deliverance ministry -- maybe that was you? Maybe not. That a person can rebuke satan ourselves and caste out our own demons? Born again believers Can be Oppressed by satan.

People were brought To Jesus Chris for healing -- Jesus Christ caste out demons.

We Are warned to stay Away From , not mingle and try to caste Out. People on the mission field -- when confronted With demonic situations -- depend on spiritual strength from Jesus Christ. Their Aim on the mission field is to present the Gospel unto salvation to the people -- the Holy Spirit works in their hearts. They accept or reject.

I read my Bible every day. Our right relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

When it happened to me, I had been baptized as a baby but I did not know what was happening. I strived to be holy as a teen, and was saving myself for marriage. I had a pure heart, a little mischevious but a good kid. I was date raped and my world was shattered. I became numb and promiscuous, I put God on hold, and then it happened. When I needed God the most He helped me, but He wasn't answering my knock. I had to earn it so to speak is how I looked at it. I just praise and thank God it never happened again. It was 30 years ago

 

[DieAmartyr]

On one of these threads - you'd shared that your husband is in the Army -- has been for 13 yrs. Where is he stationed? What country ? Depending on where he's stationed -- wives / families can sometimes go to that country with them.
The lady who drives me to Monday evening Bible study -- her husband had been in the service and she and family moved with him to various countries. Soo -- where is he stationed?

No, he was in for 13 years. He served in Desert Storm as well.

 

[Brad Huber]

the point of this thread was to see if there is any proof that those coming out of the great tribulation were saved before or during the tribulation. the pre -trip theory says they were saved during the tribulation, so that means there would have to be a great revival during the tribulation. And the bible teaches the exact opposite, the bible teaches of a great falling away during end times, and the bible teaches no one repents during the tribualtion, SO I have to conclude these people are born again before the tribulation and are killed during the tribulation. Making the pre trib rapture a false hope IMO

THe bible also teaches GOd send delusions to the masses during tribulation so again there is does not seem to be a great revival during the tribulaton but a falling away and the bible clearly states no one repents so we are not going to see a lot of people getting saved during the tribulation.

Sorry Dave, I contributed to going off topic.

 

[Hekuran]

the point of this thread was to see if there is any proof that those coming out of the great tribulation were saved before or during the tribulation. the pre -trip theory says they were saved during the tribulation, so that means there would have to be a great revival during the tribulation. And the bible teaches the exact opposite, the bible teaches of a great falling away during end times, and the bible teaches no one repents during the tribualtion, SO I have to conclude these people are born again before the tribulation and are killed during the tribulation. Making the pre trib rapture a false hope IMO

THe bible also teaches GOd send delusions to the masses during tribulation so again there is does not seem to be a great revival during the tribulaton but a falling away and the bible clearly states no one repents so we are not going to see a lot of people getting saved during the tribulation.

I have a slightly different understanding of the way the Book of the Revelation works to most here. I think that it does not work in a linear way (seven seals one after the other, then seven trumpet followed by seven bowls.) I think it works in a cyclical way, telling the same basic story with different symbolic imagery.

So the era we live in is the era of these judgements. In the symbolism of the seals, we can see that the horsemen of conquest, conflict, famine and death have been wreaking havoc since the time John received the vision and continues today. We look forward to the day when those from every era who have come through persecution are vindicated before God.

So who are those who come through the great tribulation? All Christians who persevere through persecution and death between the time of Jesus' ascension to his return in glory.

And that leaves no room for rapture, pre-trib or otherwise. But there's no mention of rapture of any kind in the book of Revelation.

 

[Dave M]

. But there's no mention of rapture of any kind in the book of Revelation.

I have herd some say those standing before the thrown of God that came out of tribulation were raptured. right after these are shown before the thrown of GOd, the wrath of God begins, thus keeping with the word of God saying his saints are spared from his wrath. And that prior to those standing before the thrown of GOd is the people actually killed in the tribulation they are the ones under the thrown of GOd asking GOd when he will avenge there death.

summary just a theory that I have herd.

1. People under the thrown of God asking God when he will avenge there death.

2. Rapture happens ?? people from every tribe and nation standing before the thrown of GOd

3. The wrath of GOd begins after all his church is gone.

Keep in mind we have a distinction made in the book of revelation of those standing before the thrown and those under the throne, those standing before the throne just came out of the tribulation, the people under the throne have been killed for Christ why are they described in a difernt manor

So the question is are the people under the throne souls that were killed during the tribulation or other as well???

 

[Hekuran]

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

One of the features that John points out is the length of the waiting: 'How long?' and 'wait a little longer'. From this, I think it's safe to say that they represent people who have been martyred in every age including the time of John and of the churches he was writing to, not just a short season of persecution.

 

[Dave M]

One of the features that John points out is the length of the waiting: 'How long?' and 'wait a little longer'. From this, I think it's safe to say that they represent people who have been martyred in every age including the time of John and of the churches he was writing to, not just a short season of persecution.

so then the question becomes why are those that came out of the tribulation not under the thrown, instead are standing in front of the thrown??

 

[Hekuran]

Time difference, I think. Now (between Jesus' ascension and return) the martyred saints beneath the throne cry to God 'how long?'

The multitude in Chapter 7 is a look forward to the future glory of the kingdom. See how 'he will wipe every tear from their eyes' is repeated in the final chapters of the letter. If that's right, the martyrs are beneath the throne now, and will be part of the uncountable multitude then.

I found this two-part introduction to Revelation very helpful. (I think the audio is artificially speeded up. on youtube I cut the playback speed to 85% and found it easier to follow.)

 

[TheWaytoGo]

No I don't but surely you don't think Satanists wear a pentagram for no reason? This was printed by a Christian church in relation to occult symbols

Inverted pentagram: Used in cultic and satanic rituals to
conjure up evil spirits. It is important to note that with ‘2
points up’ this symbol is typically tied to Satanism.
If you are in doubt about a symbol, do not use it. You can do an internet search for
occult symbols to see if you find it. As Christians we must be sober. We should not
wear or in any way display symbols that do not glorify God.

Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

 

[Sue D.]

I have a slightly different understanding of the way the Book of the Revelation works to most here. I think that it does not work in a linear way (seven seals one after the other, then seven trumpet followed by seven bowls.) I think it works in a cyclical way, telling the same basic story with different symbolic imagery.

So the era we live in is the era of these judgements. In the symbolism of the seals, we can see that the horsemen of conquest, conflict, famine and death have been wreaking havoc since the time John received the vision and continues today. We look forward to the day when those from every era who have come through persecution are vindicated before God.

So who are those who come through the great tribulation? All Christians who persevere through persecution and death between the time of Jesus' ascension to his return in glory.

And that leaves no room for rapture, pre-trib or otherwise. But there's no mention of rapture of any kind in the book of Revelation.

This is a bit out of sequence -- But -- you're right -- no rapture is mentioned in the book of Revelation, but it Is in Thessalonians and Matt 24. Or at least a description Of that event. The rapture / up-gathering of the Church / Will take place. It's just the question of When. I've been a strong pre-trib person but now leaning towards a pre-wrath or mid-trib rapture.

so -- continue on.

 

[TheWaytoGo]

the point of this thread was to see if there is any proof that those coming out of the great tribulation were saved before or during the tribulation. the pre -trip theory says they were saved during the tribulation, so that means there would have to be a great revival during the tribulation. And the bible teaches the exact opposite, the bible teaches of a great falling away during end times, and the bible teaches no one repents during the tribualtion, SO I have to conclude these people are born again before the tribulation and are killed during the tribulation. Making the pre trib rapture a false hope IMO

THe bible also teaches GOd send delusions to the masses during tribulation so again there is does not seem to be a great revival during the tribulaton but a falling away and the bible clearly states no one repents so we are not going to see a lot of people getting saved during the tribulation.

I support your conclusions:

1) Pre trib believers tell me the religious Jews (144,000 sealed)will be leading a revival for Christ. But, aren't they in the rebuilt Temple practicing animal sacrifices until mid trib when the A.C. puts an end to those sacrifices? That would mean they have not been following the Lamb slain from the foundation. And, if the religious Jews aren't preaching Christ, certainly secular Israel is not even close.

2) Also at mid-trib, upon the Abomination of Desolation, the 144,000 sealed Jews realize the man of sin is NOT the Messiah and go on the run to be hidden by God for 3.5 years (again, not leading a revival). When Satan can't reach them, he turns to the seed of the woman (Israel) who have the testimony of Jesus Christ and makes war with them. That is the Church who went into the 7 year Tribulation. There is no one else, most of the world is swearing allegiance to antiChrist.

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.​

3) Why would God start all over again to save the lost, by removing His Church (leaving His Saints gives Him the best chance to produce followers), during a time people will be choosing overwhelmingly to take the Mark over Christ? Even family members will be turning in their relatives out of fear, or because they are just so evil minded. Sounds like these Christians being turned over to the Beast have a long established faith, not mere months.

4) After the mid-Trib, and after the fifth seal, the Tribulation Saints are under the altar, who were killed sometime before this 5th seal, and Jesus tells them they will continue being killed into the second 3.5 years. It defies logic to believe that God took out His Church, started a brand new one from scratch, and built in a matter of a few months, what took over 2,000 years.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:​

​

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

​

There are dozens of proofs that the Rapture is near the end of the 7 years Trib., and that the Church Saints are the Tribulation Saints. Many of them are the very verses used by pre-Trib adherents, except I use them in context.