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Should Christians own guns?

Loyal
So, your argument is not really about guns, but rather if a human being has the right to self-preservation if the use of force is applied against him or her.
Jesus addressed that very clearly in the sermon on the mount

But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
 
Member
The verse you referenced (Mat.5:39) tells us not to resist evil, rather than "do not to resist an evil person." That "slap on the cheek" is referring to an insult, not to a life-threatening situation. The custom was to bow before earthly authority, and by not bowing, one was asserting that he does not follow or acknowledge that earthly authority (Caesar or whomever). The typical response by the purported authority was to slap that man in the face. So when the man turns his other check to them, when he offers up his other cheek, he is making a statement that while he will not submit to that unjust authority, he is also giving that authority another opportunity to do the right thing (as Christ would do to his).

A modern example would be: It is illegal everywhere to shoot a man who has entered your space with the intent of stealing your TV. He is unarmed and has given clear intent that he is not there to harm you or worse. The occupant cannot legally (or Lawfully) apply deadly force against that thief. The thief must be given the opportunity (e.g. through the justice of the legal system) to make restitution/do the right thing/be held accountable - the ultimate goal always being one of restoration, of good overcoming evil.
 
Loyal
Actually 'evil person' is a good translation.

Jesus teaching and lived example of non-violence is completely consistent. If we claim to follow him, we should do the same. The apostles and early church did.
 
Member
Actually 'evil person' is a good translation.
Says who?

It's not ours to be the sole arbiter of the words of God. Obviously, what may seem "good" to your flesh will not seem "good" to others. Rather, God's words, not ours, are inspired, while men claim owner$hip of their copyrighted "versions" of it.

Jesus teaching and lived example of non-violence is completely consistent. If we claim to follow him, we should do the same. The apostles and early church did.
Not even close, as self-defense and "non-violence" are not synonymous.

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, or at least very close to the beginning—in Genesis 4. In this chapter, we read about the first murder. Cain had offered an unacceptable sacrifice and Cain was upset that God insisted that he do the right thing. In other words, Cain was peeved that he could not do his own thing.

Cain decided to kill his brother rather than get right with God. There were no guns available, although there may well have been a knife. Whether it was a knife or a rock, scripture does not say. The point is, the evil in Cain’s heart was the cause of the murder, not the availability of the murder weapon.

God’s response was not to ban rocks or knives, or whatever, but to banish the murderer (or institute capital punishment - Genesis 9:5-6). God never said a word about banning weapons.

Many people, Christians included, assume that Christ taught pacifism. They cite Matthew 5:38-39 for their proof. In this verse Christ said:

Matthew 5:38-39, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

I do not believe Christ was teaching to "turn the other cheek" in virtually all circumstances. Even Christ did not literally turn the other cheek when smitten by a member of the Sanhedrin (John 18:22-23), or when struck on the face by the palms of the Roman guards (Matthew 26:67-68, Mark 14:65, Luke 22:64).

The Sermon on the Mount, from which this passage is taken, deals with righteous personal conduct. In our passage, Christ is clearing up a confusion that had led people to think that conduct proper for the government—that is, taking vengeance—was also proper for an individual. The principle taught in the Sermon on the Mount is that bondservants of Christ should not retaliate when insulted or slandered (Romans 12:17-21), such as being slapped. Such insults do not threaten a believer's personal safety. The question of rendering insult for insult, however, is a far cry from defending oneself against a mugger, or a woman using the martial arts against a rapist.

Even the choice of words used by Christ indicates that He was addressing a confusion, or a distortion, that was commonplace. Several times in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, Christ used this same "Ye have heard that it hath been said" figure of speech to straighten out misunderstandings or falsehoods being taught by the religious leaders of the time.

Contrast this to Christ’s use of the phrase "It is written" or "The Scripture saith" when He was appealing to the Scriptures for authority (for example, see Matthew 4 where on three occasions during His temptation by the devil, Christ answered each one of the devil’s lies or misquotes from Scripture with the words: "it is written").

The reference to "an eye for an eye" was taken from Exodus 21:24-25, which deals with how the magistrate must deal with a crime. Namely, the punishment must fit the crime. The religious leaders of Christ’s day had twisted a passage that applied to the government and misused it as a principle of personal revenge.

Scripture distinguishes clearly between the duties of the magistrate (the government) and the duties of an individual. Namely, God has delegated to the magistrate the administration of justice. Individuals have the responsibility of protecting their lives from attackers. Christ was referring to this distinction in the Matthew 5 passage. Let us now examine in some detail what the Scriptures say about the roles of government and of individuals.

Both the Old and New Testaments teach individual self-defense, even if it means taking the assailant’s life in certain circumstances.

Exodus 22:2-3, "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

One conclusion which can be drawn from this is that a threat to our life is to be met with lethal force. After "the sun has risen" seems to refer to a different judgment than the one permitted at night. At night it is more difficult to discern whether the intruder is a thief or a murderer. Furthermore, the nighttime makes it more difficult to defend oneself and to avoid killing the thief at the same time. During the daytime, it had better be clear that one’s life was in danger, otherwise, defense becomes vengeance, and that belongs in the hand of the magistrate.

Proverbs 25:26, "...it is unseemly for a righteous man to fall before an ungodly man."

Certainly, we would be falling before the wicked if we chose to be unarmed and unable to resist an assailant who might be threatening our life. In other words, we have no right to hand over our life, which is a gift from God, to the unrighteous. It is a serious mistake to equate a civilized society with one in which the decent people are doormats for the evil to trample on.

And what about the New Testament?

Christian pacifists may try to argue that God has changed His mind from the time that He gave the Ten Commandments. Perhaps they would want us to think that Christ canceled out the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 or the provision for justifiably killing a thief in Exodus 22. But the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that this cannot be, because "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8). In the Old Testament, the prophet Malachi records God’s words this way: "For I am the LORD, I change not;" (Malachi 3:6).

Paul was referring to the unchangeability of God’s Word when he wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." Clearly, Paul viewed all Scripture, including the Old Testament, as useful for training bondservants of Christ in every area of life.

We must also consider what Christ told His disciples in His last hours with them: ". . . he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36). Keep in mind that the sword was the finest offensive weapon available to an individual soldier—the equivalent then of a military rifle today.

The Christian pacifist will likely object at this point that only a few hours later, Christ rebuked Peter who used a sword to cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest in the company of a detachment of troops. Let us read what Christ said to Peter:

Matthew 26:52-54, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

In the companion passage in John 18, Jesus tells Peter to put his sword away and told him that He had to drink the cup that His Father had given Him. It was not the first time that Christ had to explain to the disciples why He had come to earth. To fulfill the Scriptures, the Son of God had to die for the sin of man, since man was incapable of paying for his own sin. These things became clear to the disciples only after Christ had died and been raised from the dead and the Spirit had come into the world at Pentecost (see John 14:26).

In terms of following Christ's example, one must remember that His personal nonresistance at the cross was intertwined with His unique calling. He did not evade His arrest because it was God's will for Him to fulfill His prophetic role as the redemptive Lamb of God (Matthew 26:52-56). During His ministry, however, He refused to be arrested because God's timing for His death had not yet come (John 8:59). Thus, Christ's unique nonresistance during his ministry does not mandate against self-protection.

While Christ told Peter to put up his sword in its place, He clearly did not say get rid of it forever. That would have contradicted what He had told the disciples only hours before. Peter’s sword was to protect his own mortal life from danger. His sword was not needed to protect the Creator of the universe and the King of kings.

Besides, Peter's use of force was not justified, because soldiers came to arrest Jesus and take him to trial, they did not come with the intent or goal of killing him and murdering him in the Garden with his apostles. There is a difference between a man immediately threatening one's life, and a man coming to arrest you. There is no justification for killing a man who has come to arrest you.

Another objection people bring up is this statement from Christ: "if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." They claim that Christ did not want his servants to fight. However, this verse is quoted out of context. Let us read this entire verse:

John 18:36, "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

As we can see, this was only in reference to his servants fighting to avoid Jesus being delivered to the Jews (such as what Peter tried to do). It was the will of God that Jesus (and some of us) be arrested and brought before the magistrates, His servants are not to resist. If his servants fought in this situation, Jesus could not have fulfilled scripture! This is the reason why his servants could not fight in this situation. Jesus gave a specific reason why his servants did not fight. To ignore this reason, and claim that Jesus prohibited all fighting in all situations, would be to add to scripture something that is not there.

Years after Pentecost, Paul wrote in a letter in 1 Timothy 5:8, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." This passage applies to our subject because it would be absurd to have a house, furnish it with food and facilities for one’s family, and then refuse to install locks and provide the means to protect the family and the property. Likewise, it would be absurd not to take, if necessary, the life of a nighttime thief to protect the members of the family (Exodus 22:2-3). Fathers are to protect their families and the state is to protect the right to do so.

A related and even broader concept is found in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ had referred to the Old Testament summary of all the laws of scripture into two great commandments: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). When asked who was a neighbor, Christ related the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37). It was the Good Samaritan who took care of the mugging victim who was a neighbor to the victim. The others who walked by and ignored the victim’s plight were not acting as neighbors to him.

In the light of all we have seen the Scriptures teach to this point, can we argue that if we were able to save another’s life from an attacker by shooting the attacker with our gun that we should "turn the other cheek instead"? Scripture speaks of no such right. It only speaks of our responsibilities in the face of an attack—as individual creatures made by God, as householders or as neighbors.

In Genesis 14, Abraham forms a militia to rescue Lot and receives the blessing of Melchizedek. Then, in Hebrews 7, this episode is repeated and God made it part of the New Testament age. There are many other passages in the Scripture and they all support our duty of self-defense. For example:

Luke 11:21-22, "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Mark 3:27, "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

Matthew 12:29, "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

The above words are spoken by Jesus. He said when a man is armed his goods are in peace. But when he is not armed, it is easy for criminals to bind the innocent and steal their goods. If it was against God's Will to be armed, I do not believe Jesus would speak positive about men being armed.
 
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Loyal
Says who?

It's not ours to be the sole arbiter of the words of God. Obviously, what may seem "good" to your flesh will not seem "good" to others. Rather, God's words, not ours, are inspired, while men claim owner$hip of their copyrighted "versions" of it.


Not even close, as self-defense and "non-violence" are not synonymous.

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, or at least very close to the beginning—in Genesis 4. In this chapter, we read about the first murder. Cain had offered an unacceptable sacrifice and Cain was upset that God insisted that he do the right thing. In other words, Cain was peeved that he could not do his own thing.

Cain decided to kill his brother rather than get right with God. There were no guns available, although there may well have been a knife. Whether it was a knife or a rock, scripture does not say. The point is, the evil in Cain’s heart was the cause of the murder, not the availability of the murder weapon.

God’s response was not to ban rocks or knives, or whatever, but to banish the murderer (or institute capital punishment - Genesis 9:5-6). God never said a word about banning weapons.

Many people, Christians included, assume that Christ taught pacifism. They cite Matthew 5:38-39 for their proof. In this verse Christ said:

Matthew 5:38-39, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

I do not believe Christ was teaching to "turn the other cheek" in virtually all circumstances. Even Christ did not literally turn the other cheek when smitten by a member of the Sanhedrin (John 18:22-23), or when struck on the face by the palms of the Roman guards (Matthew 26:67-68, Mark 14:65, Luke 22:64).

The Sermon on the Mount, from which this passage is taken, deals with righteous personal conduct. In our passage, Christ is clearing up a confusion that had led people to think that conduct proper for the government—that is, taking vengeance—was also proper for an individual. The principle taught in the Sermon on the Mount is that bondservants of Christ should not retaliate when insulted or slandered (Romans 12:17-21), such as being slapped. Such insults do not threaten a believer's personal safety. The question of rendering insult for insult, however, is a far cry from defending oneself against a mugger, or a woman using the martial arts against a rapist.

Even the choice of words used by Christ indicates that He was addressing a confusion, or a distortion, that was commonplace. Several times in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, Christ used this same "Ye have heard that it hath been said" figure of speech to straighten out misunderstandings or falsehoods being taught by the religious leaders of the time.

Contrast this to Christ’s use of the phrase "It is written" or "The Scripture saith" when He was appealing to the Scriptures for authority (for example, see Matthew 4 where on three occasions during His temptation by the devil, Christ answered each one of the devil’s lies or misquotes from Scripture with the words: "it is written").

The reference to "an eye for an eye" was taken from Exodus 21:24-25, which deals with how the magistrate must deal with a crime. Namely, the punishment must fit the crime. The religious leaders of Christ’s day had twisted a passage that applied to the government and misused it as a principle of personal revenge.

Scripture distinguishes clearly between the duties of the magistrate (the government) and the duties of an individual. Namely, God has delegated to the magistrate the administration of justice. Individuals have the responsibility of protecting their lives from attackers. Christ was referring to this distinction in the Matthew 5 passage. Let us now examine in some detail what the Scriptures say about the roles of government and of individuals.

Both the Old and New Testaments teach individual self-defense, even if it means taking the assailant’s life in certain circumstances.

Exodus 22:2-3, "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

One conclusion which can be drawn from this is that a threat to our life is to be met with lethal force. After "the sun has risen" seems to refer to a different judgment than the one permitted at night. At night it is more difficult to discern whether the intruder is a thief or a murderer. Furthermore, the nighttime makes it more difficult to defend oneself and to avoid killing the thief at the same time. During the daytime, it had better be clear that one’s life was in danger, otherwise, defense becomes vengeance, and that belongs in the hand of the magistrate.

Proverbs 25:26, "...it is unseemly for a righteous man to fall before an ungodly man."

Certainly, we would be falling before the wicked if we chose to be unarmed and unable to resist an assailant who might be threatening our life. In other words, we have no right to hand over our life, which is a gift from God, to the unrighteous. It is a serious mistake to equate a civilized society with one in which the decent people are doormats for the evil to trample on.

And what about the New Testament?

Christian pacifists may try to argue that God has changed His mind from the time that He gave the Ten Commandments. Perhaps they would want us to think that Christ canceled out the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 or the provision for justifiably killing a thief in Exodus 22. But the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that this cannot be, because "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8). In the Old Testament, the prophet Malachi records God’s words this way: "For I am the LORD, I change not;" (Malachi 3:6).

Paul was referring to the unchangeability of God’s Word when he wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." Clearly, Paul viewed all Scripture, including the Old Testament, as useful for training bondservants of Christ in every area of life.

We must also consider what Christ told His disciples in His last hours with them: ". . . he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36). Keep in mind that the sword was the finest offensive weapon available to an individual soldier—the equivalent then of a military rifle today.

The Christian pacifist will likely object at this point that only a few hours later, Christ rebuked Peter who used a sword to cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest in the company of a detachment of troops. Let us read what Christ said to Peter:

Matthew 26:52-54, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

In the companion passage in John 18, Jesus tells Peter to put his sword away and told him that He had to drink the cup that His Father had given Him. It was not the first time that Christ had to explain to the disciples why He had come to earth. To fulfill the Scriptures, the Son of God had to die for the sin of man, since man was incapable of paying for his own sin. These things became clear to the disciples only after Christ had died and been raised from the dead and the Spirit had come into the world at Pentecost (see John 14:26).

In terms of following Christ's example, one must remember that His personal nonresistance at the cross was intertwined with His unique calling. He did not evade His arrest because it was God's will for Him to fulfill His prophetic role as the redemptive Lamb of God (Matthew 26:52-56). During His ministry, however, He refused to be arrested because God's timing for His death had not yet come (John 8:59). Thus, Christ's unique nonresistance during his ministry does not mandate against self-protection.

While Christ told Peter to put up his sword in its place, He clearly did not say get rid of it forever. That would have contradicted what He had told the disciples only hours before. Peter’s sword was to protect his own mortal life from danger. His sword was not needed to protect the Creator of the universe and the King of kings.

Besides, Peter's use of force was not justified, because soldiers came to arrest Jesus and take him to trial, they did not come with the intent or goal of killing him and murdering him in the Garden with his apostles. There is a difference between a man immediately threatening one's life, and a man coming to arrest you. There is no justification for killing a man who has come to arrest you.

Another objection people bring up is this statement from Christ: "if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." They claim that Christ did not want his servants to fight. However, this verse is quoted out of context. Let us read this entire verse:

John 18:36, "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

As we can see, this was only in reference to his servants fighting to avoid Jesus being delivered to the Jews (such as what Peter tried to do). It was the will of God that Jesus (and some of us) be arrested and brought before the magistrates, His servants are not to resist. If his servants fought in this situation, Jesus could not have fulfilled scripture! This is the reason why his servants could not fight in this situation. Jesus gave a specific reason why his servants did not fight. To ignore this reason, and claim that Jesus prohibited all fighting in all situations, would be to add to scripture something that is not there.

Years after Pentecost, Paul wrote in a letter in 1 Timothy 5:8, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." This passage applies to our subject because it would be absurd to have a house, furnish it with food and facilities for one’s family, and then refuse to install locks and provide the means to protect the family and the property. Likewise, it would be absurd not to take, if necessary, the life of a nighttime thief to protect the members of the family (Exodus 22:2-3). Fathers are to protect their families and the state is to protect the right to do so.

A related and even broader concept is found in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ had referred to the Old Testament summary of all the laws of scripture into two great commandments: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). When asked who was a neighbor, Christ related the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37). It was the Good Samaritan who took care of the mugging victim who was a neighbor to the victim. The others who walked by and ignored the victim’s plight were not acting as neighbors to him.

In the light of all we have seen the Scriptures teach to this point, can we argue that if we were able to save another’s life from an attacker by shooting the attacker with our gun that we should "turn the other cheek instead"? Scripture speaks of no such right. It only speaks of our responsibilities in the face of an attack—as individual creatures made by God, as householders or as neighbors.

In Genesis 14, Abraham forms a militia to rescue Lot and receives the blessing of Melchizedek. Then, in Hebrews 7, this episode is repeated and God made it part of the New Testament age. There are many other passages in the Scripture and they all support our duty of self-defense. For example:

Luke 11:21-22, "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Mark 3:27, "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

Matthew 12:29, "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

The above words are spoken by Jesus. He said when a man is armed his goods are in peace. But when he is not armed, it is easy for criminals to bind the innocent and steal their goods. If it was against God's Will to be armed, I do not believe Jesus would speak positive about men being armed.
A couple of things in response. You counter my statement that Jesus life and teaching on non-violence is completely consistent: "not even close". Where do you find Jesus being inconsistent in his life and teaching.

Second, his disciples clearly took Jesus example as a model for their own conduct. The early church leaders - Peter, Stephen, Paul - were beaten often and killed, yet they did not attempt to meet violence with violence.

The consistent NT word to churches undergoing persecution is to "persevere". No mention of Christians using force to defend themselves.

Finally, to the church in Rome, a city which had Jewish rebellion in the air, Paul counsels people not to get involved in insurrection: "Submit to those in authority".
 
Loyal
Luke 22:36; And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

John 2:14; And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
John 2:15; And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;
John 2:16; and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

John 18:10; Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
 
Loyal
Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
Brilliant. And how did Jesus respond to Peter's attempt to kick off violent rebellion?
 
Loyal
Jesus came to earth in the form of a baby around 2000 years ago. He came to save the souls of all mankind that would turn to Him. When He comes back, it wont be to coddle ppl and tell them how much He loves them, He will be in the front of a vangard of 10,000 of His Holy ones. That group will devastate the evil run rampant nowdays. I am guessing you have heard of what happens in the valley of megido (or something like that).
 
Loyal
Jesus came to earth in the form of a baby around 2000 years ago. He came to save the souls of all mankind that would turn to Him. When He comes back, it wont be to coddle ppl and tell them how much He loves them, He will be in the front of a vangard of 10,000 of His Holy ones. That group will devastate the evil run rampant nowdays. I am guessing you have heard of what happens in the valley of megido (or something like that).
That misunderstands what Jesus came to us for. He came primarily to announce and inaugurate the kingdom of God on earth and establish himself as Lord. He did this by sacrifice, not by conquest. See the introductory summary of Jesus' ministry in Mark 1 "Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."

And Jesus return in power and glory is a good motivation to persevere in the face of attack and opposition. In the fullness of time, he will establish perfect justice and right every wrong. That means i can patiently wait for Jesus to deal with the times that I've been wronged. I don't need to take justice or vengeance into my own hands.
 
Loyal
That misunderstands what Jesus came to us for. He came primarily to announce and inaugurate the kingdom of God on earth and establish himself as Lord. He did this by sacrifice, not by conquest. See the introductory summary of Jesus' ministry in Mark 1 "Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news."

And Jesus return in power and glory is a good motivation to persevere in the face of attack and opposition. In the fullness of time, he will establish perfect justice and right every wrong. That means i can patiently wait for Jesus to deal with the times that I've been wronged. I don't need to take justice or vengeance into my own hands.
You are missing the point. He is coming back to conquer, with lots of bloodshed of us humans whom he loves. So much so, that a whole large valley has has blood up to a horses bridle. And he is allowing His "Holy Ones" to join him. Who do you think His holy ones are? I tell you they are the dead in Christ coming back to help because they want to, because they hate what they see. Now they will have Christ to direct them, and that makes a big difference. But if you have a close connection to the Holy Spirit, you also have Christ to direct you, through the Holy Spirit. Now I know an awful lot of christians who dont have that connection, and they should probably stay sheep, probably yourself included. But those that do should do "whatever the Holy Spirit tells them" whether you think it wise or not.
 
Loyal
You are missing the point. He is coming back to conquer, with lots of bloodshed of us humans whom he loves. So much so, that a whole large valley has has blood up to a horses bridle. And he is allowing His "Holy Ones" to join him. Who do you think His holy ones are? I tell you they are the dead in Christ coming back to help because they want to, because they hate what they see. Now they will have Christ to direct them, and that makes a big difference. But if you have a close connection to the Holy Spirit, you also have Christ to direct you, through the Holy Spirit. Now I know an awful lot of christians who dont have that connection, and they should probably stay sheep, probably yourself included. But those that do should do "whatever the Holy Spirit tells them" whether you think it wise or not.
OK. What bearing does that have on the question of gun ownership today and the wider issues on Christians' use of violence?
 
Member
Everyone has opinions, and they all stink. Recognize that truth is the first casualty in this info war.

The personal offenses taken in the replies, and the usual dirth of scriptural references, edify no one.
 
Loyal
OK. What bearing does that have on the question of gun ownership today and the wider issues on Christians' use of violence?
You were trying to make out Christ to be all loving, never doing anything violent, and for Him to be our example. Guns help the poor gain food in the area I live in, and they help those who use them to protect themselves against predators of all kinds, both 2 legged and four legged. Jesus didnt have the people go out and start a insurrection in His name, but He did say to protect themselves by getting a few swords. Corrupt govts are the ones who want to take guns out of the hands of people, so that they are easier to rule over without any major protest.
 
Loyal
Hi @Brad Huber. Yes, I do think that Jesus' teaching and example tends towards non-violence. In all his encounters and teaching about soldiers (all occupying Roman soldiers) he certainly did nothing to encourage or entertain violent resistance. And he did have a couple of freedom fighting zealots in his band of disciples.

Perhaps you imagine I think of Jesus as an archetypal 21st century western liberal softy? Absolutely not! Whatever simple category anyone tries to fit Jesus into, he confounds it.
 
Member
And should they be used against others to defend yourself. If you are a police officer how does that fit in with your Christian Ideals. Do you use them to hunt or for fun or protection. If you own one why do you have it or them?

I refused to take part in a shooting range because deep down I felt it was wrong as a Christian. I would like other opinions on this please. Maybe I am being wrong in my assumptions. Yet I know Thou shalt not kill resonates within me. Guns are made for killing. If as Christians you have a gun what justification do you have in owning one?

Thanks in advance
It won't change anything. Bullets go right through demons and that is who we are really fighting. A man gets possessed and comes in your home and seeks to hurt you- you shoot the man but the demon leaves and finds someone else and you have just basically shot an innocent man.
 
Loyal
It won't change anything. Bullets go right through demons and that is who we are really fighting. A man gets possessed and comes in your home and seeks to hurt you- you shoot the man but the demon leaves and finds someone else and you have just basically shot an innocent man.
Not completely innocent.
 
Loyal
Ok you are right. Fair enough
If a person had the Holy Spirit inside them, the demon cannot enter and control that person. We are protected that way. Those who reject Christ and refuse the Holy Spirit, their bodies will indeed suffer. Some people actually enjoy the power of the demon flowing through them, feel no pity for them, they were not innocent. There are actions you can take against the demons though, just look at what Jesus and His disciples did to those who were a problem.
 
Member
If a person had the Holy Spirit inside them, the demon cannot enter and control that person. We are protected that way. Those who reject Christ and refuse the Holy Spirit, their bodies will indeed suffer. Some people actually enjoy the power of the demon flowing through them, feel no pity for them, they were not innocent. There are actions you can take against the demons though, just look at what Jesus and His disciples did to those who were a problem.
I know. I said you were right.
 
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