The spiritual kingdom vs the physical kingdom

[B-A-C]

The word "kingdom" in mentioned over 150 times in the New testament; Over 120 times just in the gospels alone.

Sometimes the phrase "kingdom of God" is used, sometimes the phrase "kingdom of Heaven" is used. Sometimes just the word "kingdom is used".
The word "heaven" is in over 130 verses in the gospels; over 200 times in the New testament.

These are used in different contexts at different times.

For example Jesus tells the Pharisees...

Luke 17:20; Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

So here it seems, it is not something that can be seen by everyone. Most likely spiritual in nature.

But Jesus also says things like ...

Matt 5:18; "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Rev 3:12; 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

John writes...

Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

In these contexts, heaven is a physical place, like the earth. Like the earth it will eventually be replaced. The old earth and old heaven pass away, but there will be a new earth and a new heaven eventually.
Heaven is a place... where God's throne is. Where Jesus is now. Where the New Jerusalem will come down out of.

Right now there is really only a "spiritual" kingdom of God, but eventually the physical will come. It won't affect just Christians, but it will be obvious to everyone on the earth. Even non-Christians.

Rev 2:27; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
Rev 12:5; And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

There is a lot more to say on this... literally dozens of verses. But I am out of time for now.

 

[B-A-C]

John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Sometimes neither "kingdom" or "heaven" is mentioned, it's just "a place". In this context it's hard to know if it's physical or spiritual, perhaps it
is a spiritual place where our souls/spirits go. But it's possible that when our bodies are resurrected, they will need a physical place to live.

In Revelation 21, we are given a description of place, with physical materials, gold, pearls, emeralds, water, etc...
It also has physical dimensions, 1500 miles long, 1500 miles wide, walls 72 yards, etc... So this appears to be a physical place.

The New Jerusalem
Rev 21:9; Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10; And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11; having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
Rev 21:12; It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
Rev 21:13; There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
Rev 21:14; And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15; The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
Rev 21:16; The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
Rev 21:17; And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
Rev 21:18; The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19; The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
Rev 21:20; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
Rev 21:21; And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
Rev 21:22; I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23; And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24; The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
Rev 21:25; In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
Rev 21:26; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
Rev 21:27; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It also mentions the sun and moon (physical things) giving off light. Does a spiritual place need physical light?

.. to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 5:3; "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:4; "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Matt 5:5; "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

It seems some get the "kingdom of heaven" and some "inherit the earth". Earth at least is a physical place. Could it be that some (believers?) never receive the kingdom of heaven?

2Tim 2:12; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Rev 5:10; "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

It says (some?) believers will reign with Him (Jesus) upon the Earth. (a physical place) it says this will happen after the resurrection (of our 'physical' bodies).
Also who/what are we reigning over? Other believers? (the ones who inherit the earth?)

 

[Dave L]

The word "kingdom" in mentioned over 150 times in the New testament; Over 120 times just in the gospels alone.

Sometimes the phrase "kingdom of God" is used, sometimes the phrase "kingdom of Heaven" is used. Sometimes just the word "kingdom is used".
The word "heaven" is in over 130 verses in the gospels; over 200 times in the New testament.

These are used in different contexts at different times.

For example Jesus tells the Pharisees...

Luke 17:20; Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

So here it seems, it is not something that can be seen by everyone. Most likely spiritual in nature.

But Jesus also says things like ...

Matt 5:18; "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Rev 3:12; 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

John writes...

Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

In these contexts, heaven is a physical place, like the earth. Like the earth it will eventually be replaced. The old earth and old heaven pass away, but there will be a new earth and a new heaven eventually.
Heaven is a place... where God's throne is. Where Jesus is now. Where the New Jerusalem will come down out of.

Right now there is really only a "spiritual" kingdom of God, but eventually the physical will come. It won't affect just Christians, but it will be obvious to everyone on the earth. Even non-Christians.

Rev 2:27; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
Rev 12:5; And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

There is a lot more to say on this... literally dozens of verses. But I am out of time for now.

I think you are missing that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same single kingdom. Here's ample proof.
“the kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17) = “the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15)

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 5:3) = “Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20)

“Among those born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist, notwithstanding he who is least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than him.” (Matt. 11:11) = “Among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.” (Luke 7:28)

“the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 13:11) = “the mysteries of the kingdom of God” (Mark 4:11 cp. Luke 8:10)

“the kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed” (Matt 13:31) = “the kingdom of God...is like a grain of mustard seed” (Mark 4:30-31 cp. Luke 13:18-19)

“The kingdom of Heaven is like leaven” (Matt. 13:33) = “the kingdom of God...is like leaven” (Luke 13:20)

“Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 18:3-4) = “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein” (Mark 10:15)

“Allow little children, and do not forbid them to come to me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matt. 19:14) = “Allow the little children to come to me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:14 cp. Luke 18:16)

“a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:23) = “How hardly shall they who have riches enter into the kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24)

In other words, “kingdom of God” = “kingdom of Heaven.”

 

[B-A-C]

I think you are missing that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same single kingdom. Here's ample proof.
“the kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17) = “the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15)

I agree. (Some on here don't). But for the sake of this thread, it doesn't matter.

 

[Dave L]

I agree. (Some on here don't). But for the sake of this thread, it doesn't matter.

It matters greatly. Were Daniel and Jesus right when they said the kingdom came in the time of the ancient Roman Empire? And Jesus said it is spiritual that only the born again can see? Or do we side with the Pharisees and say it is physical and yet to come in the distant future? Jesus and the Pharisees mixed it up over this and they killed him for saying it.

 

[Hekuran]

Hi @B-A-C I can't help but think that the division of spiritual and physical kingdoms is not so helpful. Jesus and the New Testament writers didn't seem to promote that way of thinking. Wouldn't it be wiser to think in terms of one king and one kingdom over all things -- seen and unseen?

 

[B-A-C]

Hi @B-A-C I can't help but think that the division of spiritual and physical kingdoms is not so helpful. Jesus and the New Testament writers didn't seem to promote that way of thinking. Wouldn't it be wiser to think in terms of one king and one kingdom over all things -- seen and unseen?

It is one king and one kingdom, but it is in both worlds, affects both worlds. We will just have to disagree on this.

 

[Brad Huber]

Water exists in 3 different forms (that we know of), yet all forms are still water. Liquid water, a vaporous steamy water, and an icy frozen water. All still water, nothing has changed in it inherent nature, just different aspects of it.

 

[Hekuran]

It is one king and one kingdom, but it is in both worlds, affects both worlds. We will just have to disagree on this.

OK. We'll disagree. You're going to struggle to find any biblical support for the idea that there's a spiritual world and a physical world though. The Bible authors -- old and new testament -- had a unified view of the cosmic order, no hint of 'two worlds'.

 

[B-A-C]

As I said earlier, gold jasper, pearls, the sun and moon, water, 1500 miles, 72 yards are all physical elements, with physical dimensions.
..in any case...

There is something called the something coming. It hasn't happened yet. Jesus isn't reigning on the earth yet. Satan hasn't been imprisoned yet.
I don't want to digress into the rapture, that's another discussion, that's another thread. If you believe in it great, if you don't, for the purpose of this thread it doesn't matter.
This is about the second coming, and the millennial reign.

When Jesus comes back, it won't be in secret. The whole world will see Him flashing across the sky.

Matt 24:26; "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
Matt 24:27; "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

'Every" eye will see him, not just believers, even the unbelievers who "pierced Him".

Rev 1:7' BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

When Jesus returns Satan will be bound in prison for 1000 years. This hasn't happened yet.

Rev 20:1; Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection hasn't happened yet.

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Gog and Magog are interesting, depending of who's commentary you read.. they are either people are countries. Jewish tradition says these are current day Russia and China.
Some commentaries say this is simply another name for the beast and his "co-commander" (false prophet). But whoever they are, they will gather together after the millennial reign.
It says Satan is released "after" the thousand years. It says the resurrection doesn't happen until after the thousand years.

It says this war will be on "a plain of the earth". A physical place. Eventually Satan and the false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. This hasn't happened yet.

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 16:14; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Rev 16:15; ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
Rev 16:16; And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

If this battle happens upon a plain of the earth, a physical place in Israel called Tel Megiddo. Now there are spirits and demons (spiritual things) calling people (physical beings)
to fight in this war. Tel Meggido should not be confused with Masada, they are different places.

Rev 14:17; And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18; Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe."
Rev 14:19; So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20; And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

This passage is difficult, there is metaphorical language in it to be sure. What is the sickle, the grapes, and the great wine press? You will get differing answers on these things as well.
But once again we have blood. Jesus said a Spirit does not have flesh and blood. This blood will as deep as the bridle on a horse for a distance of 200 miles. (a physical measurement).

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18; He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19; For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20; and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Everything was created by Jesus, heavenly things, earthly things, material things, spiritual things.... everything.
One of the things Jesus does is reconcile "all things" to Himself. Things in heaven (heavenly things) and things on the earth (earthly things).

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

1Cor 15:23; But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Cor 15:24; then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cor 15:27; For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Eventually Jesus hands the keys of the kingdom back over the Father... but that hasn't happened yet.
Satan and the demons are still running around, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Hindu's and other religions are still around. The enemies of Jesus/God are not gone yet.
They are still here. Death is still here. But eventually they won't be. Right now people have a choice. A choice to follow (or not follow) whoever they want to.
During the millennial reign this won't be the case.

Psa 2:9; 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
Rev 2:27; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; (Jer 19:11; )
Rev 12:5; And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

When Jesus comes back to the Earth, He will reign with a "rod of iron". No more nonsense. (at least for the next thousand years after this).

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

There are a few verses in the Bible that speak of a "new Earth" that seemingly will replace the old Earth at some point in the future.

Isa 65:17; Isa 66:22; 2 Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1;

Now of course the Earth is a physical place, not a "spiritual only" place. There are also several verses that say many of us will be ruling and reigning with Jesus at some point.
Why would God create a new Earth if He doesn't it to be a part of His kingdom?