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Was the thief in Paradise "that day"?

Now days that is what the "institutional church" has commanded the men to be, more gentle and less biblical and more kinder and gentle and loving and softer in tone and read not the BIBLE entirely in public, but cherry pick it so we will not offend the women in our mist. I would called that feminizing to conform to the commandments [doctrine] of men. meaning no harm but this is the truth.

You do know that women was not allowed in the main sanctuary with the men in the old Testament Temple, but only could convene in the "outer court". Have you ever gave it pure thought.
 
That's what your holy book says; and yours isn't the only holy book out there to choose from.
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There's only One Truth. There is only One God. There's only one risen Savior. There's only one Holy Spirit that will give a person peacefulness / take away guilt.
 
Now days that is what the "institutional church" has commanded the men to be, more gentle and less biblical and more kinder and gentle and loving and softer in tone and read not the BIBLE entirely in public, but cherry pick it so we will not offend the women in our mist. I would called that feminizing to conform to the commandments [doctrine] of men. meaning no harm but this is the truth.

You do know that women was not allowed in the main sanctuary with the men in the old Testament Temple, but only could convene in the "outer court". Have you ever gave it pure thought.

That was back then. We learn a lot from the books of history -- that people really haven't changed much. The New Testament tells about living //Christianity. A person Can choose to shove Bible down people's throats , but that doesn't accomplish much. Present Bible / Biblical principals in loving, caring ways. Bible-thumping people is just going to give them a head ache and turn them away.
 
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There's only One Truth. There is only One God. There's only one risen Savior. There's only one Holy Spirit that will give a person peacefulness / take away guilt.
Your statement is no less propaganda than a Muslim fanatic shouting: Allah Is Great!

You are confident that your statement is true; but surely must realize that no one can prove either you or the Muslim sufficiently to hold up in a court of law.

"Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."
(Mark Twain)
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Every so often I get asked how I know that my religion is right. My answer is: I don't know if it's right. Then of course they want to know how it is that I believe in my religion when I don't know whether it's right.

That's a fair inquiry. Most of the people who ask me those kinds of questions are genuine; they're not trying to trip me up and make a fool out of me. They are honestly curious. So I tell them, in so many words, that though I don't know if my religion is right, my conscience tells me it is; in other words: I cannot shake the conviction that the religion I believe in is right.

Why does anybody believe what they believe? Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Bahá'í, Hare Krishna, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, Judaism, Voodoo, Wiccan, Jain, Druze, Native American, etc, etc, etc. The answer? Because it grips their heart-- the core of their being --which is very different than persuading someone with logic, debate, and reasoning.

People brought into a religion by logic, debate, and reasoning can be taken away by logic, debate, and reasoning. But someone whose heart is gripped by their religion, is not so easily removed regardless of how strong the opposition's argument.

Back in the early 1980s,I attended a special class called "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses" taught by a lecturer who had been in that system for nearly three decades.

The man didn't train us to hammer JWs in a debate because even if you best them scripture for scripture, they will not give up on the Watchtower Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly convinced in their own conscience that the Society is the voice of God, while the oppositions' voices have no more validity than that of a squeaky little gerbil.

I encountered that very attitude with a Catholic woman on the old Beliefnet forums. The woman admitted that she was unable to refute my arguments; but nevertheless, I am an obscure nobody rather than an authority recognized by The Church so she didn't have to listen to me. Fair enough.

It seems unjust to me that God is set to lower the boom on people who are honestly sincere in their religious beliefs rather than just stubborn. The Pharisees opposed Jesus' teachings primarily because they hated him. For them it was a personal matter rather than a matter of conscience. I can understand slamming them; they deserve it. But I have trouble understanding how sincere people deserve to be slammed.

For example Matt 7:21-23 where number of people are predicted to be amazed that all the while they truly believed themselves on the Lord's side will be turned away as his enemies.

That disturbs me because my eldest brother was a Friar who conscientiously devoted his life to teaching and defending Roman Catholicism. I do not doubt my brother's sincerity for a moment; yet there's a very real possibility that his life's work will have been for naught while the atheists and the agnostics have been right all along.
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That's interesting. I find Christianity to be easily provable via prophecy. God said that He tells men what He will do and then does it. God predicts something and then hundreds or thousands of years later does those very things. No human being could do such a thing. To me this is proof that God exists and that His religion is true. I also find that the apostle Paul expressly uses logic and reasoning to prove the Christian religion is the true religion. One thing about logic, it's never wrong, it can't be.
 
You're quoting Mark Twain -- Look at Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." And the chapter continues to give many examples of how 'by faith' the many events took place and people / Noah, Abraham, Enoch, etc, etc. how they acted upon in the 'now' for which they believed would take place in the future.

'We' do a Lot of things 'by faith' without realizing it. When we sit down on a chair -- we're doing that 'by faith' that the manufacturer of the chair new what he was doing. That the chair wasn't going to fall apart when we sat down on it.

Or when we turn on a light switch -- we 'by faith' turn it on Assuming that the light will turn on -- Assuming that the electrician knew what he was doing when wiring the switch / the house. The same thing with the plumbing -- the sewer line. Etc.

The same thing with the automatic doors at lots of stores. We Assume 'by faith' that they Will open and that we won't walk into a glass door.

And , yes, the Quaran and the Bible / God's Word are two Very different kinds of religious literature.
 
So true "No body can believe in Jesus Christ unless the Father drags him and no man can [has the ability] to know the Father unless the Son Reveals him. Thank God it is not up to a person to determine his or hers "Salvation"! Less any man or woman should boast!
John 6:44 was spoken to Jews for a specific time and purpose. It's not a universal statement.
 
John 6:44 speaks of God's calling of the disciples. Jesus was gathering a group of men that He would teach and prepare to send out into the world to proclaim the Gospel. The passage is not directed to mankind in general. Jesus was speaking to Jews and said that He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Later, John records Jesus' words saying, if I am lifted up I will draw all men to me. So, the drawing we see in John 6:44 was for a specific time and purpose. We know that Jesus draws all because John records these word saying that Christ gives light to every man. In the Bible light is often used as a metaphor for understanding.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Jn. 1:6-9 KJV)

Here John John expounds on all men by saying that Christ gives light to every man.
 
Your statement is no less propaganda than a Muslim fanatic shouting: Allah Is Great!
You are confident that your statement is true; but surely must realize that no one can prove either you or the Muslim sufficiently to hold up in a court of law.

"Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."
(Mark Twain)
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sorry, Mark Twain is a poor example to use. He was not in the "body of Christ"!

Although Mark Twain believed in God, he didn't believe that the Bible was the Creator's Word. In fact, he hated the God revealed in the Scriptures--the One who spoke against adultery and fornication. He bemoaned the fact that not being allowed to commit adultery was "cruelly hard." ALARM, ALARM, ALARM !!!!!
One of his books:
Mark Twain: A Christian Response to His Battle with God

conclusion Mark Twain was not a Christian, why? because his own writings and the words that came out of his OWN mouth betrayed him. "by their fruits you will know them"

by most of his quotes about God, and religion, true Christian knows he is not one of us. because Jesus said: "My sheep knows my voice and will not follow another;"

and how could a intelligent christian man say this:
his quote: if Jesus was here today he would not be or want to be a “christian”. When a person will not go by his own name, you better take notice! That person is a deceiver! I don't care how many books he writes.
 
Look at Hebrews 11:1
That passage says pretty much the very same thing as Mark Twain.

"Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."

the Quaran and the Bible / God's Word are two Very different kinds of religious literature.

Claiming that your holy book is "God's word" is no different than a Muslim claiming the same for their holy book.

On the whole of it, the Koran and the Bible are both holy books; and who really knows for sure whether the holy book that you like is truer than the holy book that a Muslim likes? The same can be said for Buddhism, and for Hinduism too.

May I posit something? Nothing personal; but your credibility as a rational person will not improve much until you accept the reality that Christianity is just another stupid religion like any other. Until then, you'll be seen as one more run of the mill fanatic going round and round in a whirlpool of ridiculous claims impossible to prove beyond a shadow of sensible doubt in a court of law and/or by scientific scrutiny.

FYI: Nothing personal; but I regard apologetics as not only futile, but also a fool's errand wherein opponents volley back and forth without ever getting to the bottom of anything. However, if perpetual bull sessions are your idea of entertainment, then by all means continue; but as of this posting, I'm gone.
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@Beetow -- Now -- why not share Exactly how you Really feel.

There Is a Real eternity waiting for Everyone -- including You -- God's Word tells us that Everyone Will acknowledge God's existence and Him as Supreme being.

And there is either heaven or hell in each person's eternal future.
 
John 6:44 was spoken to Jews for a specific time and purpose. It's not a universal statement.
Jesus is a universal God, is He not? And His Father is a universal GOD is He not?, And they both do not live in time. They live in eternity, they are "immutable", right? For time is a creation and will pass away and be no more but GOD is constant, right? Now let us move on concerning the Jews, the specific time and purpose you are relating to.

And the promise was made to and in Abraham, it went beyond the Jews. Jesus is the true "Israel" GOD to Abraham: to thy "SEED" not seeds! that SEED was Jesus! ALL nations shall be bless! Jesus is the Blessed one! In Jesus, Jesus is the JEW! If you are not in Jesus, you ain't none of GOD! and there is only One door, one way, It is all about Jesus! Being a jew or you, are not going to get you in. But Jesus! Many christians do not understand what is a true "HEBREW"! many need to go back to Genesis and start all over again, the elementary materials of Their salvation to all men and women! Because "popcorn" theology ain't going to get it!
Many christians are real christians, but just because you are a true christian, does not mean you fully understand, your salvation. For there are many levels of understanding even of your salvation. it is all written in the Book= "The Salvation Story'. It is like a computer, you cannot get nothing out of a computer unless the data is first put in it, and it depends on how accurate and how much data is put in there to arrive to a certain conclusion. So in essence, how much bible [data] have you put in your spirit, mind and was it complete and updated and upgraded and the updates was from a reliable source and your "anti-virus" program is running! In your mind and spirit. "for there is neither Gentile or Jew"!
 
Jesus is a universal God, is He not? And His Father is a universal GOD is He not?, And they both do not live in time. They live in eternity, they are "immutable", right? For time is a creation and will pass away and be no more but GOD is constant, right? Now let us move on concerning the Jews, the specific time and purpose you are relating to.

And the promise was made to and in Abraham, it went beyond the Jews. Jesus is the true "Israel" GOD to Abraham: to thy "SEED" not seeds! that SEED was Jesus! ALL nations shall be bless! Jesus is the Blessed one! In Jesus, Jesus is the JEW! If you are not in Jesus, you ain't none of GOD! and there is only One door, one way, It is all about Jesus! Being a jew or you, are not going to get you in. But Jesus! Many christians do not understand what is a true "HEBREW"! many need to go back to Genesis and start all over again, the elementary materials of Their salvation to all men and women! Because "popcorn" theology ain't going to get it!
Many christians are real christians, but just because you are a true christian, does not mean you fully understand, your salvation. For there are many levels of understanding even of your salvation. it is all written in the Book= "The Salvation Story'. It is like a computer, you cannot get nothing out of a computer unless the data is first put in it, and it depends on how accurate and how much data is put in there to arrive to a certain conclusion. So in essence, how much bible [data] have you put in your spirit, mind and was it complete and updated and upgraded and the updates was from a reliable source and your "anti-virus" program is running! In your mind and spirit. "for there is neither Gentile or Jew"!

I'm sorry, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Also, Jesus is a man.
 
Jesus is God... but also a man.

 
Jesus is God... but also a man.

What does that mean?
 
I'm sorry, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Also, Jesus is a man.


Jesus is the Son of God. the 2nd part of the Godhead. It's true that He was here in the form of a man / born into the Jewish culture. But He was here as God incarnate.
 
I have to wonder when people ask over and over again.. what does that mean? The answer has plainly been given to them.

2Tim 3:1; But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Tim 3:2; For men will be ...
2Tim 3:5; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
2Tim 3:7; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Tim 3:8; Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
2Tim 3:9; But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.

Some people are always "learning", but never come to the knowledge of the truth. They never make any "further progress".
 
What does that mean?
I am going to rearrange, Sue statement here, for another positive view in the room, to add a little more clarity to see if it makes a difference.

Sue said: "Jesus is the Son of God. the 2nd part of the Godhead. It's true that He was here in the form of a man / born into the Jewish culture. But He was here as God incarnate."

My rearrange of words: The Son of God who took on human flesh to become and called by the name, a human name "Immanuel" [Jesus]. For the Son of God is always the Son of God no matter what form He chooses to take, He is always and always will be the"2nd part of the Godhead! It's true that He was here in the form of a man/ born into Jewish culture. But He still is God the Son no matter what He does or chose to be, He is "immutable"! "God is incomprehensible to a finite being"! So do not even say: "How can HE do that"!
The answer is; Because He is GOD. :cool: Notice the rearrange of the 1st part of her statement and I am not taking away from her statement but viewing it from a different position as you would view a picture in a gallery. And everyone knows what the name "Immanuel" means.
 
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