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Faith or works or both?

Loyal
It's the doctrine of Compromise. -- so backing up -- the question was are God's children all Children of God. And no they aren't.

So it's whether or not a person is sticking with the True Word of God or adjusting it in some way. And so you were applying that to Me in that I'm not agreeing with Your application of , so I'm compromising.
 
Active
I just need some help , i missed where the term " overcomer " cmes from and what you guys mean by it . Sincerely bill
I speak only for my self , Jesus said he has "overcome the world" so have all believers!!! That reminds me, I specifically remember you telling me that you were a " bookend" of God I guess that means your not Omniscient as He?
 
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Loyal
As you showed by quoting my post it is a timing issue of resurrecting the elect of God it does NOT say according to being saved or not saved.
And you still cannot get around ALL being made alive in Christ

First I add more scripture so we can look at it and old better to the context.

1 Corinthians 15:20-31 (NKJV)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour?
31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


I can see what you are saying but do not read what you are saying the same way, having reread these verses numerous times I am still of the same view brother.

I have two orchards, one is an apple orchard, the other a pear orchard. I am talking to you stood in by apple orchard and say you can have all from my orchard.
I am talking about the apples orchard, you are expecting the pear orchard also. It is the word ALL.

If we read v20-28 taking ALL in v22, For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive. I have to stop and say, hang on brother paul, has my dear friend got a good point here.

But then I read on, v29 onwards talks of those who are baptised into Christ Jesus, so those last few verses tell me, Paul is here talking of ALL the saved who have died.

These verses when quoting 'ALL' are referring to 'ALL' those who are Christ's, not ALL as in lost and saved souls.

Point being you did not choose to be born under condemnation, God chose that for you. You would not choose Jesus unless God dragged you to him
and gave you the faith to believe. So in both instances they are Gods choices for you. But, if you wanna say it was your choice, was it also your choice
to be born under condemnation, and the free gift that was given according to Jesus' righteous act you earned?


You raise a good point brother and all good points must be considered against The Word. But we are born into sin, we are not saved automatically, we must be born again.

John 3:3-7 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'


Clarified further in

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."


God will eventually call ALL and ALL will come to Jesus and receive life. And agrees with vs 22. And is the way that death will be destroyed which is the
last enemy to be put under the Lords feet.


God will eventually call ALL who are born again to eternal life

He will also call ALL who are unsaved to The Great White Throne Judgement and eternal damnation.
 
Loyal
It's the doctrine of Compromise. -- so backing up -- the question was are God's children all Children of God. And no they aren't.

So it's whether or not a person is sticking with the True Word of God or adjusting it in some way. And so you were applying that to Me in that I'm not agreeing with Your application of , so I'm compromising.


Greetings sister

Totally agree, we are all God's children but not all children of God.

I don't think all people adjust The Word, there are some good people on here, would you not say it is better to say, more times than not it is down to not reading a passage fully, and reading out of context. As I put in Post 442 above it is so easy to mis read what was meant in the text eg 1 Cor 20-28 and not read the next few verses that puts things into context.

Bless you
 
Loyal
Remember too Bro. Paul . What Jesus said about Loving God ,that there were 4 distinct areas . " Love God with all your heart , with all your soul , with all your mind, and with all your strength.

In some translations it says " Love God with all your heart and all your spirit etc. "

But here too , Jesus makes a distintion of the 4 elements that make up a human.. your heart ( where the soul resides) , your spirit , your mind and the Temple of the Holy Spirit , your physical body.

It is safe to say Jesus understood the difference of the soul God gave us, and the " human spirit we also have


Greeting brother

With you 100% my friend.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (NKJV)
4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 "And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.
8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.


Luke 10:25-27 (NKJV)
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"
27 So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' "


Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Bless you my friend
 
Loyal
I agree with you . All will be brought before God at the Last Judgement .

Does anyone ever wonder what Jesus ment when he speaks in Matt 10 : 15 . In reguards to Judgement , it will go easier on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than with that town.

If the people in Sodom and Gomorrah are condemned , what is easier . Hell is Hell


ALL will come before the Lord in judgement, saved and unsaved souls, in the order set by God.

The unsaved to The Great White Throne Judgement

The saved to be judged for what we have done (or not done) according to The Word.

They will be joyous and terrible times, depending on who we chose to follow on earth.

Although we Rejoice and Give Thanks,there are people dying daily in large numbers across the world, many or a large percentage are 'Lost Souls'

The harvest is ready but the workers are few, surely this should spur us in to prayerful action.

Shalom
 
Active
First I add more scripture so we can look at it and old better to the context.

1 Corinthians 15:20-31 (NKJV)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour?
31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


I can see what you are saying but do not read what you are saying the same way, having reread these verses numerous times I am still of the same view brother.

I have two orchards, one is an apple orchard, the other a pear orchard. I am talking to you stood in by apple orchard and say you can have all from my orchard.
I am talking about the apples orchard, you are expecting the pear orchard also. It is the word ALL.

If we read v20-28 taking ALL in v22, For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive. I have to stop and say, hang on brother paul, has my dear friend got a good point here.

But then I read on, v29 onwards talks of those who are baptised into Christ Jesus, so those last few verses tell me, Paul is here talking of ALL the saved who have died.

These verses when quoting 'ALL' are referring to 'ALL' those who are Christ's, not ALL as in lost and saved souls.




You raise a good point brother and all good points must be considered against The Word. But we are born into sin, we are not saved automatically, we must be born again.

John 3:3-7 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'


Clarified further in

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."





God will eventually call ALL who are born again to eternal life

He will also call ALL who are unsaved to The Great White Throne Judgement and eternal damnation.

I wanna ask you one question to chew on. Well, maybe more that one.
Romans 5:18 :"Therefore as by one mans offense(Adam), judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Mans righteous act(Jesus) the
free gift came upon all men, resulting in justification of life." All=All in both cases.

In this verse we see that God condemned all men for what Adam did. We also see that God justified all men unto life because of what Jesus did.
Neither one of these had anything to do with our choice.
So my question is this, Is the original sin of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam did a more serious sinful act that cannot
be paid for by the blood of Jesus so that he himself could not be reconciled along with the rest of man, or is the sacrifice of the Son as the propitiation for
sin a greater sacrifice on Gods part that resolves all sin to all men? This is the jest of the verse. Which carries more weight?
Adams sin or Jesus' sacrifice?

This does not leave out anybody from coming to Jesus for salvation as that seed of life must be obtained from him, as God gave him that authority at his
glorification. All must come to and through Jesus according to the calling and timing of the Father.

There is a need ,believe it or not for the sinner, for without the sinner you could not experience evil against you and there would be nothing to forgive.
Forgiveness is what generates love in the one who forgives, which is why Jesus tells us to forgive endlessly so that we may be more like our Father
which is in heaven. Who is Love. Therefore, when God decides that you will be the one who sins and brings evil to his elect that he is maturing we are commanded to
forgive them as Jesus did on his cross. It doesn't mean that they are left out of salvation as at some point in time as we were all sinners who received faith to
believe from God according to his schedule and they will too. I speak of those who have received this grace already.
The above is called the Mystery of iniquity and is by the design of God. 2 Th 2:7

Now if you are following me lets look at the eternal punishment. God says your born into condemnation period. But now that God did not call you to Jesus
you deserve to be roasted alive forever in a place called hell. Does this sound like a God who is Love? Does this sound like a God that will forgive our
sins for his own sake. Isaiah 43:25 Does this picture paint a scenario where all things have been reconciled back to Jesus? Col 1:20

The love of God for us is and will always be greater than we could ever understand. But in bringing his children to an understanding necessary to
give them all things pertaining to the kingdom, there will be pain. But that pain will be forgotten as a woman in labor once delivered of the child.

Gods plan never allowed for our choice as his choice for us is far greater than we could choose for ourselves. He has never abdicated his throne in favor
of our decisions.

Is it possible that we are missing or misunderstanding something that causes the contradiction?
 
Active
I think man creates a conundrum here: :"The saved to be judged for what we have done (or not done) according to the word."On the other hand Jesus says we are saved by Grace and not works. Is have done or not done , works? Maybe man's interpretation but God says no, otherwise we could boast. Personally, I want to do but I fall short because I am not perfect; I think, according to the Word, God's standard is perfection, where by you failed at one ( have done) you have failed at everything and you deserve Judgement but, it is by Grace we are saved; not of ourselves [filthy rags]
Thus, the only judgement is if Christ is in you or not!
 
Active
And this can only occur if you are born again and thus have received faith to beleive which you cannot do by yourself. It is up to God when you become a believer.
Can't and won't argue on this, He is infinite in his knowledge and wisdom; and He gives all this as a gift and if a gift, it is free, from the foundation He has done this!
 
Active
Can't and won't argue on this, He is infinite in his knowledge and wisdom; and He gives all this as a gift and if a gift, it is free, from the foundation He has done this!

Absolutely shows his love for us. But I doubt Jesus thought it was free as he paid a real price for us. Yes?
 
Loyal
But each individual has to Accept God's free gift of salvation on a personal basis in order for that gift From God to do a person any good. I can have a gift ready for you -- but in order for it to Be yours -- you need to reach out and accept it -- Then it becomes yours and you can appreciate all the benefits Of that gift.
 
Active
But each individual has to Accept God's free gift of salvation on a personal basis in order for that gift From God to do a person any good. I can have a gift ready for you -- but in order for it to Be yours -- you need to reach out and accept it -- Then it becomes yours and you can appreciate all the benefits Of that gift.
Agreed: "I Stand At The Door And Knock" you either answer or you don't !
 
Active
But each individual has to Accept God's free gift of salvation on a personal basis in order for that gift From God to do a person any good. I can have a gift ready for you -- but in order for it to Be yours -- you need to reach out and accept it -- Then it becomes yours and you can appreciate all the benefits Of that gift.

This is the basis of self righteousness, something you did to get it. Thats not free, thats a work you performed in order to get the FREE gift. Its subtle but still
an act of self righteousness. You will always say I ACCEPTED as opposed to he gave it to me. Did you baptize yourself in the Holy Ghost or did Jesus do that for
you? How could you reach out and take or accept what you can't see?
I'm not trying to pick a fight over this just pointing out the flaw with the idea.
 
Loyal
I wanna ask you one question to chew on. Well, maybe more that one.
Romans 5:18 :"Therefore as by one mans offense(Adam), judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Mans righteous act(Jesus) the
free gift came upon all men, resulting in justification of life." All=All in both cases.


Your answer is in the verse above, Jesus has the 'free gift of salvation' for ALL men, it is there, it is ready, it is free.

If we were to say 'we have a free gift for everyone' you can bet people will be queuing through the night to be first to get it. Not so with salvation, because it is spiritual and they cannot see it, they do not want to come into the light, they will never get it if they remain in darkness. Few come for it. Yet it is free.

The point is the FREE GIFT is available to ALL, but if we do not come to receive it we don't get it. Everyone has the same choice! Those who don't receive the free gift have condemned themselves already

John 3:17-21 (NKJV)
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."


Jesus said very clearly 'we must be born again', if we are not, then that is the persons choice, but if the Holy Spirit is not in them they are lost souls.
 
Active
The point is the FREE GIFT is available to ALL, but if we do not come to receive it we don't get it. Everyone has the same choice! Those who don't receive the free gift have condemned themselves already

Does the first part of the verse say that God condemned all men or they condemned themselves by choice? Have you not read the verse that says the gifts and
calling of God are without repentance? Romans 11:29 He will never remove the gift from those he has given it too. He just hasn't given it to ALL yet, but will have when the fulfillment
of the dispensation of timeS is fulfilled.
The point is the FREE GIFT is available to ALL

Verse doesn't say it is available to all it says it came upon all, just as the condemnation came upon all.
Everyone has the same choice!

Thats not grace, thats self righteousness. If all have the same choice then why do we refer to the elect vs those appointed to disobedience? Did they appoint themselves
or elect themselves or did God Call them or did the Father make them vessels of dishonor? Are you an elect by anything you did or was it free because of what Jesus did?

I'm only trying to show you that as you participated in the condemnation by the wisdom of God you will also participate in the life simply because God said so and
promised it before the world was formed. Titus 1:2
 
Loyal
Does the first part of the verse say that God condemned all men or they condemned themselves by choice? Have you not read the verse that says the gifts and
calling of God are without repentance? Romans 11:29 He will never remove the gift from those he has given it too. He just hasn't given it to ALL yet, but will have when the fulfilment of the dispensation of timeS is fulfilled.

Yes I have read that we as Gentiles were condemned due to sin, the Jews are condemned do to not accepted the promised Messiah, Jesus our Lord, both are condemned that we may receive mercy from God, a Gift from God.

Romans 11:28-32 (NIV2011)
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Jews) are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they (Jews) are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


With regards the gospel they (Jews) are enemies of God, for your sake.
Israel's as shown estrangement from God which has created the opportunity for the Gentiles to be reconciled to him and embrace the blessings of the gospel.

With regards the election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Paul means that the promises which God made to the patriarchs when he called them are secured to their descendants, not on the ground of merit, but on the ground of God's fidelity to his word of grace, as verse 29 emphasizes.

v29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Tyndale Commentaries - Romans says...
Paul has already announced that 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God' (3:23). All have been convicted before the tribunal of God; none, whether Jew or Gentile, can lay any claim to his mercy. If there is to be hope for any, it must depend solely on God's grace; but hope is held out in unstinted measure. God's purpose in shutting Jews and Gentiles up together in a situation where their disobedience to his will must be acknowledged and brought to light was that he might lavish his unmerited mercy on Jews and Gentiles together.

Not of us can earn grace, but we are condemned so we may receive grace.
 
Loyal
God's Free gift of salvation Is available to All --yes -- but a person Has to accept that gift in order for it to become his . The Holy Spirit convicts a person Of their sin. A person Needs to acknowledge their Personal need Of salvation. The person has to be old enough to realize right from wrong. A person needs to acknolwedge their personal need For being saved. What are they being saved From or To.

God has All knowledge. Nothing we do surprises Him. He knows Everything that goes on 'behind closed doors' -- does that mean He Approves of all of it -- No. He Knows all about the illicite relationship taking place Behind those closed doors. Does He stop it? Maybe, maybe Not. He Does allow us to make our choices and live with the consequences. Then again, Sometimes -- since God Does have our best interests at heart -- Sometimes He Will prevent us from doing some things.

Point is that God is the Only One who knows ahead of time who will betray Him -- who will Honor Him. We don't have that information.

There Are those who make a Point of bring up the 'elect' of God. It IS in God's Word. Just like you have just now. We look back in history and read about or remember those who have lived dubious lives or done really questionable things.

WE / None of us knows who those elect of God are. I don't see myself as an 'elect' of God. I Do know I'm a born again believer -- the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins many times before I accepted Him as my Savior. I never thought of myself as being one of His 'elect' and patted myself on my back. I Do remember that Finally I had peace -- I'd Had lots of head knowledge, but it hadn't reached my heart, yet.

And it's a good thing that none of Us has the knowledge of who the 'elect' of God are. We be witnessing only to the nice people. We'd be prejudiced Against the really Bad people who 'we' didn't think deserved salvation.

Everyone is lost until they are individually 'saved'.
 
Loyal
God's Free gift of salvation Is available to All --yes -- but a person Has to accept that gift in order for it to become his . The Holy Spirit convicts a person Of their sin. A person Needs to acknowledge their Personal need Of salvation. The person has to be old enough to realize right from wrong. A person needs to acknolwedge their personal need For being saved. What are they being saved From or To.

God has All knowledge. Nothing we do surprises Him. He knows Everything that goes on 'behind closed doors' -- does that mean He Approves of all of it -- No. He Knows all about the illicite relationship taking place Behind those closed doors. Does He stop it? Maybe, maybe Not. He Does allow us to make our choices and live with the consequences. Then again, Sometimes -- since God Does have our best interests at heart -- Sometimes He Will prevent us from doing some things.

Point is that God is the Only One who knows ahead of time who will betray Him -- who will Honor Him. We don't have that information.

There Are those who make a Point of bring up the 'elect' of God. It IS in God's Word. Just like you have just now. We look back in history and read about or remember those who have lived dubious lives or done really questionable things.

WE / None of us knows who those elect of God are. I don't see myself as an 'elect' of God. I Do know I'm a born again believer -- the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins many times before I accepted Him as my Savior. I never thought of myself as being one of His 'elect' and patted myself on my back. I Do remember that Finally I had peace -- I'd Had lots of head knowledge, but it hadn't reached my heart, yet.

And it's a good thing that none of Us has the knowledge of who the 'elect' of God are. We be witnessing only to the nice people. We'd be prejudiced Against the really Bad people who 'we' didn't think deserved salvation.

Everyone is lost until they are individually 'saved'.


Greetings Sue

There are 27 verses referring to the elect and one that quotes it.

Matthew 24:24 (NIV2011)
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Bless you
 
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