Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Butch5]

According to your interpretation, only the Jew will be saved and Gentiles are doomed!

I didn't say anything at all about anyone being saved. However, you didn't answer my question. Where in Scripture do you see that the phrase "born again" refers to all people?

 

[Butch5]

What do you say "Born Again" means?

What does born mean?

 

[Born Again 2004]

I am not going to dig through scripture to satisfy your ego and apparent misinterpretation. You must understand what Born Again literally means, which you obviously do not. It means salvation. Before salvation can occir, like Jesus said before you are saved you must be born again, and as he told Nicodemus, you must be born of the Holy Spirit. ...your second birth
Here is a verse for you: Roman's 1:16, for I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes , first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.

 

[AbbysAunt]

Being born again is when you take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. When Jesus said in the Bible Man must be Born again He also said what is born of the flesh is flesh but what is born of the Spirit is Spirit. We are born in the flesh as sinners so as we are we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but once we take Jesus as our Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit enters in then we are now reborn and made new in Him. We are made right with God and can now enter into His presence and will one day enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with Him. This is what it means to be Born Again.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Before getting into heaven you will have two births, first of water, your Mother or your physical birth, then your second birth, by the Holy Spirit or spiritual birth.

When you die you go to the spirit world, I pray that you have the Holy Spirit in you!

 

[Butch5]

I am not going to dig through scripture to satisfy your ego and apparent misinterpretation. You must understand what Born Again literally means, which you obviously do not. It means salvation. Before salvation can occir, like Jesus said before you are saved you must be born again, and as he told Nicodemus, you must be born of the Holy Spirit. ...your second birth
Here is a verse for you: Roman's 1:16, for I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes , first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.

Can I assume you're unable to answer the question? Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again. He didn't tell him he had to be saved. The phrase appear 3 times.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.1 (Jn. 3:3 KJV)

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.1 (Jn. 3:7 KJV)

Nicodemus was an Israelite, a Jew.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever (1 Pet. 1:23 KJV)

Peter wrote his first epistle to the Diaspora, the Jews who were scattered.

Each time the phrase is used of Jews or Israelites. It's not use of Gentiles. Unless you can show where it is used of Gentiles you're really only giving an unsubstantiated opinion.
There really is no need for ad hominems, they only give evidence that one has no argument.

 

[Butch5]

Being born again is when you take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. When Jesus said in the Bible Man must be Born again He also said what is born of the flesh is flesh but what is born of the Spirit is Spirit. We are born in the flesh as sinners so as we are we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but once we take Jesus as our Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit enters in then we are now reborn and made new in Him. We are made right with God and can now enter into His presence and will one day enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with Him. This is what it means to be Born Again.

Thanks for your opinion. Can you establish this from Scripture?

 

[Butch5]

Before getting into heaven you will have two births, first of water, your Mother or your physical birth, then your second birth, by the Holy Spirit or spiritual birth.

When you die you go to the spirit world, I pray that you have the Holy Spirit in you!

Please show me anything in the Scriptures that speaks of a second birth by the Holy Spirit other than the Resurrection. Man is not a spirit and he doesn't go to Heaven. Going to Heaven is the Greek hope, not the Biblical hope

 

[Sue D.]

To be 'saved' / born again/ mean the same thing. Being saved -- to be saved 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "... I declare to you the Gospel ...by which also you are saved....that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures..."

Romans 10:9-10 "....that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ... vs 13 "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that who so ever believeth on Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

The Bible is made up of Old and New Testaments -- the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. So the Biblical word says that 'we' have the hope/ expectation Of heaven. And in the very end -- God is going to bring the New Jerusalem down from heaven to this world which will destroyed.

Look at Acts 13 ; 46 -52 vs Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said: it was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first,, but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles, vs 47 For so the Lord has commanded us: I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth...... Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord. "

Butch5 are you Jewish?

 

[Hekuran]

There are similar phrases in the Bible, which are applied to non- Jews. 1 John says 'born of God'. Paul tells his readers they are a 'new creation.

And Jesus seems to be talking universally in his conversation with Nicodemus. 'Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'.

 

[Hekuran]

'Born again', 'born from above' is a very expensive metaphor. And there's no record of Jesus giving Nicodemus an explanation of it. Plus there's a whole load of baggage that the phrase has picked up in last 100 years or so, which isn't always helpful.

In the context of the original conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, what was Jesus communicating, and why? Was Jesus being deliberately obtuse, or was Nicodemus just slow to catch on?

I don't myself have satisfactory answers for these questions. @Butch5 do you?

 

[Born Again 2004]

I'm done you are a anti-christ. Good luck to you and your thinking!

 

[Butch5]

To be 'saved' / born again/ mean the same thing. Being saved -- to be saved 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "... I declare to you the Gospel ...by which also you are saved....that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures..."

Romans 10:9-10 "....that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ... vs 13 "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that who so ever believeth on Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

The Bible is made up of Old and New Testaments -- the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. So the Biblical word says that 'we' have the hope/ expectation Of heaven. And in the very end -- God is going to bring the New Jerusalem down from heaven to this world which will destroyed.

Look at Acts 13 ; 46 -52 vs Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said: it was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first,, but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles, vs 47 For so the Lord has commanded us: I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth...... Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord. "

Butch5 are you Jewish?

Nowhere does the Bible promise Heaven as the hope. Heaven isn't promised to anyone in the Bible. That is Greek philosophy. No, I'm not Jewish.

 

[Butch5]

I'm done you are a anti-christ. Good luck to you and your thinking!

As I said, ad hominems don't help your argument. You didn't substantiate your claim and you didn't answer the question.

 

[Samson2020]

Acts 15:7-9 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up and said unto them, Men and Brethren ye know that how a good while ago God made choice
among us that the GENTILES by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe, And God which knows the hearts, BARE THEM WITNESS, GIVING THEM
THE HOLY GHOST, even as he did unto us; and PUT NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM, purifying their hearts by faith."

 

[Samson2020]

The receiving of the Holy Ghost is the quickening which is being born again by the Spirit. And the above verses tell us there is no difference between Jew and Gentile
In Gods eyes.

 

[Butch5]

'Born again', 'born from above' is a very expensive metaphor. And there's no record of Jesus giving Nicodemus an explanation of it. Plus there's a whole load of baggage that the phrase has picked up in last 100 years or so, which isn't always helpful.

In the context of the original conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, what was Jesus communicating, and why? Was Jesus being deliberately obtuse, or was Nicodemus just slow to catch on?

I don't myself have satisfactory answers for these questions. @Butch5 do you?

I'm glad you see the phrase is a metaphor. I think I do have a satisfactory answer. God had made certain promises to Abraham. He told him that He would, make him a great nation, the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all of the land he could see. This is where the Jews "Promised Land" comes from. When God made that promise He said He would give the land to Abraham and his seed. The Jews {Israel) are the seed of Abraham. Paul even acknowledges this.

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)

Paul says that the promises are the father's and belong to Israel. Note also that he said it was because of these that Christ came. One of those promises is the land. The Israelites believed that they were entitled to the promises because they were the seed of Abraham. The promise was to Abraham and his seed. Nicodemus was an Israelite, the seed of Abraham and believed he too was entitled to this land. The Jews were waiting for their Messiah who would conquer and rule on David's throne. This is the kingdom they were looking for. This is the kingdom Nicodemus was waiting for. The Messiah's kingdom. Nicodemus believed, as the seed of Abraham he had access to this land/kingdom. When he encounters Jesus, Jesus corrects his thinking, his birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain him access to the kingdom. He needs another birth, a second birth, to be born again. But, didn't God say that the promises were to Abraham and his seed? Aren't the Israelites Abraham's seed, through their physical birth from Abraham? Yes, they are. So then aren't the promises to the Israelites? No, they are not. But God said, 'and your seed'. Jesus says that which is born of flesh is flesh. In other words, no Nicodemus, your physical birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain you access to the Kingdom. Being the physical offspring is not going to get you into the Promised Land. Jesus tells him he must born again. Why would Jesus tell him he must be born again? What was the first birth?

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

God says that Israel is His firstborn. So Israel is God son, born of God, metaphorically. Born as the people of God. Born as the people of promise. The promise to Abraham. God told him that He would make him the father of a great nation. That He would give the land to Abraham and his seed. Yet, the Israelites are not the recipients of the promises. How can that be? They must be born again. But, God promised the land to Abraham and his seed. Israel is Abraham's seed. The apostle Paul clears up this confusion for us.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, the Israelites understood seed to be plural, they as the offspring of Abraham would receive the promises to Abraham and his seed. However, Paul tells us that they misunderstood the text. When God said seed, He didn't mean seed plural but rather He meant seed singular and that seed is Christ. Christ is the seed that would receive the promises, not the all of the Israelites. Nicodemus, your physical birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain you access to the kingdom. There is a different way. You must be born of water and that spirit. Water is the entrance to the New Covenant, baptism. What does it mean to be born. Is it not to come into being, to come alive? What is resurrection? Is it not to come into being, to come alive? If the body returns to the dust then has to come together and come to life a second time. Is it not being, "born again"?

The Israelites would have to be born of God a second time in order to see the kingdom. They were born of God once, "Israel is my son". However, they would need another birth from God. They would have to become believers in Christ. What does John said about the believer?

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.1 (1 Jn. 5:1 KJV)

John says that whosoever believes is born of God. The Gentile who believes is born of God, the Israelite who believes is "born again" of God.

 

[Butch5]

The receiving of the Holy Ghost is the quickening which is being born again by the Spirit. And the above verses tell us there is no difference between Jew and Gentile
In Gods eyes.

That's incorrect.

 

[Butch5]

There are similar phrases in the Bible, which are applied to non- Jews. 1 John says 'born of God'. Paul tells his readers they are a 'new creation.

And Jesus seems to be talking universally in his conversation with Nicodemus. 'Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'.

Yes, Gentiles are born of God, Israelites are "born again" of God.

 

[Hekuran]

I'm glad you see the phrase is a metaphor. I think I do have a satisfactory answer. God had made certain promises to Abraham. He told him that He would, make him a great nation, the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all of the land he could see. This is where the Jews "Promised Land" comes from. When God made that promise He said He would give the land to Abraham and his seed. The Jews {Israel) are the seed of Abraham. Paul even acknowledges this.

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)

Paul says that the promises are the father's and belong to Israel. Note also that he said it was because of these that Christ came. One of those promises is the land. The Israelites believed that they were entitled to the promises because they were the seed of Abraham. The promise was to Abraham and his seed. Nicodemus was an Israelite, the seed of Abraham and believed he too was entitled to this land. The Jews were waiting for their Messiah who would conquer and rule on David's throne. This is the kingdom they were looking for. This is the kingdom Nicodemus was waiting for. The Messiah's kingdom. Nicodemus believed, as the seed of Abraham he had access to this land/kingdom. When he encounters Jesus, Jesus corrects his thinking, his birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain him access to the kingdom. He needs another birth, a second birth, to be born again. But, didn't God say that the promises were to Abraham and his seed? Aren't the Israelites Abraham's seed, through their physical birth from Abraham? Yes, they are. So then aren't the promises to the Israelites? No, they are not. But God said, 'and your seed'. Jesus says that which is born of flesh is flesh. In other words, no Nicodemus, your physical birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain you access to the Kingdom. Being the physical offspring is not going to get you into the Promised Land. Jesus tells him he must born again. Why would Jesus tell him he must be born again? What was the first birth?

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

God says that Israel is His firstborn. So Israel is God son, born of God, metaphorically. Born as the people of God. Born as the people of promise. The promise to Abraham. God told him that He would make him the father of a great nation. That He would give the land to Abraham and his seed. Yet, the Israelites are not the recipients of the promises. How can that be? They must be born again. But, God promised the land to Abraham and his seed. Israel is Abraham's seed. The apostle Paul clears up this confusion for us.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, the Israelites understood seed to be plural, they as the offspring of Abraham would receive the promises to Abraham and his seed. However, Paul tells us that they misunderstood the text. When God said seed, He didn't mean seed plural but rather He meant seed singular and that seed is Christ. Christ is the seed that would receive the promises, not the all of the Israelites. Nicodemus, your physical birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain you access to the kingdom. There is a different way. You must be born of water and that spirit. Water is the entrance to the New Covenant, baptism. What does it mean to be born. Is it not to come into being, to come alive? What is resurrection? Is it not to come into being, to come alive? If the body returns to the dust then has to come together and come to life a second time. Is it not being, "born again"?

The Israelites would have to be born of God a second time in order to see the kingdom. They were born of God once, "Israel is my son". However, they would need another birth from God. They would have to become believers in Christ. What does John said about the believer?

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.1 (1 Jn. 5:1 KJV)

John says that whosoever believes is born of God. The Gentile who believes is born of God, the Israelite who believes is "born again" of God.

Thank you @Butch5 That's a really interesting answer. I can see that it takes the continuity of Old and New covenant seriously. I'm going to look into it further and consider it carefully.

While I do, can I ask where you first came across this interpretation? For my further reading. Thanks.