John 3:7

[David1954]

Now we see in a mirror dimly, but when that which is perfect has come, face to face.

 

[David1954]

Now we see through a glass darkly, but when that which is perfect is come, face to face.

 

[David1954]

The Church of Christ does just exactly what every denomination does.

Misconstrue a few verses to distinguish themselves.

 

[PloughBoy]

You assume too much my friend. I have not jumped into this without any knowledge. I have honestly read books and articles, not just against Calvinism, but also read their defending arguments. I compared these books and articles to scriptures and found Calvinism gravely wrong.

Flaws In Calvinism - Apologetics Press

John Calvin (1509-1564) was a French theologian during the Protestant Reformation whose system of Christian theology, primarily expressed in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, has exerted tremendous influence throughout the Christian world for nearly five centuries. The central tenets of...

www.apologeticspress.org

I even read those who kind of believe the doctrine in some points and disagree in others

John Calvin for Everyone

John Calvin for Everyone

www.johncalvinforeveryone.org

In all honesty, I cannot say I have jumped into this without knowledge as you say.

Calvin is quoted as saying things like:
“…it is plain that it comes to pass by God’s bidding that salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it…that he (God) does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others”

This is a false teaching. It is quite clear in scripture that ALL have a chance at salvation and that God "is not slack concerning" this promise of eternal life, "not willing that any should perish but that all should come unto repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)

Quote by Gene Taylor:

The five tenets of Calvinism are so tightly and logically knit together that if you accept one, you must accept them all. Conversely, if you deny one, you must deny them all.

• The child of God can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; Acts 8:9-24). The Perseverance of the Saints is not a valid doctrine.
• If a child of God can fall from grace, then God's grace must not be irresistible so the doctrine of Irresistible Grace falls.
• And if God's grace is not irresistible, then a person must be free to choose whether he will accept that grace or not. So the doctrine of Unconditional Election falls.
• And if a person is free to make the good choice to accept God's grace, we cannot say that Christ died only for the elect. We must say, along with the apostle Paul (I Timothy 2:6), that He died for the sins of all people. So the doctrine of Limited Atonement collapses.
• And if a person can make a good choice, he must not be "wholly defiled in the all the faculties of soul and mind." Therefore, the doctrine of Total Hereditary Depravity falls.
• The whole system of Calvinism comes crashing to the ground when one applies the Truth of Scripture to it.

See also "Three Simple Scriptures," Phil Roberts, Plano Provoker, August 22, 1974

Lastly, I myself am not judging. Jesus said before "they have what judges them, the word...". I simply place scripture before people and tell them Calvinism is wrong, it cannot be defended, and it must be rebuked.

1st what is Calvinism nut shell.
2. Where did the term “Calvinism” even come from,
3. Oh, I per take you have read “the Institute of the Christian Religion” to know what John Calvin thought.
4. So, evidently I do perceived that you do favour “Arminianism” views with maybe a dab “Semi-Pelagian” but not quite full blow “Pelagius” nor “Augustinian” , but maybe in between but not quite sure. I don’t know for sure. But do notice that you do like Barber Shop type theology. But since you spoke against “Calvinism”
And not against “John Calvin” that means to me that you are familiar and lean more to The “Remonstrant of 1610” at “The Synod or Dort” and Highly dis-agree with their findings. Far as I am concern, that argument has been disintegrated by far better minds than ours. Far as I am concern. Me Paul, you Apollo’s, ..... don’t add up unto a pile of beans! And let Us move on to the Good stuff, like affections in the Heavenly places.

 

[Sue D.]

Ah, Calvinism came from John Calvin a few centuries back in history. He was but a man with lots of theories from Scripture. And Mr. Arminian presented his rebuttal -- and, thus, the continued controversy on the subject.

My husband was a 4 .5 pointer. There are 5 points of Calvinism and then there's Hyper-calvinism.

 

[PloughBoy]

So said, Jacobus Ariminius about John Calvin.

So I thought I'd share a quote from Jacobus Arminius on John Calvin:

Arminius: "I affirm that he excels beyond comparison in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the Library of the Fathers; so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent gift of prophecy"

And remember the term “Calvinism” 5 points, was not coin until about 40 years after His death. And the “Remonstrant” did not occur maybe I think about or 2 years after Jacobus death

 

[Sue D.]

Both of those men / Calvin and Arminius / were but mere human beings just like we are.

 

[Acts2:38]

1st what is Calvinism nut shell.
2. Where did the term “Calvinism” even come from,
3. Oh, I per take you have read “the Institute of the Christian Religion” to know what John Calvin thought.
4. So, evidently I do perceived that you do favour “Arminianism” views with maybe a dab “Semi-Pelagian” but not quite full blow “Pelagius” nor “Augustinian” , but maybe in between but not quite sure. I don’t know for sure. But do notice that you do like Barber Shop type theology. But since you spoke against “Calvinism”
And not against “John Calvin” that means to me that you are familiar and lean more to The “Remonstrant of 1610” at “The Synod or Dort” and Highly dis-agree with their findings. Far as I am concern, that argument has been disintegrated by far better minds than ours. Far as I am concern. Me Paul, you Apollo’s, ..... don’t add up unto a pile of beans! And let Us move on to the Good stuff, like affections in the Heavenly places.

Friend, deflection noted. When someone cannot provide evidence to their stance and instead goes on the offensive to attack someone on a more person level and make presumptions about the person (which are far off the mark), and not meet the evidence they have provided and address it.

We could just thank each other for time spent and stop here. There will surely be other chances to trade intellectual knowledge with each other, God willing, another time.

 

[Acts2:38]

The Church of Christ does just exactly what every denomination does.

Misconstrue a few verses to distinguish themselves.

And yet you still refuse to address post #63. I was hoping to pull you back on track, continually trying to get you to provide any evidence whatsoever, and you just flat out refuse to answer.

The entire thread you posted has no evidence. Nothing. Just speculation, conjecture, opinions, and a twisted subjective truth. I feel like I'm on a carousel just going round and round and I will never get anywhere trying to pull evidence and further the discussion with you.

With best regards, I do thank you that you have spent time with me, though I do wish you would have provided some sort of evidence, there is no ill will on my end. Take care.

 

[David1954]

And yet you still refuse to address post #63. I was hoping to pull you back on track, continually trying to get you to provide any evidence whatsoever, and you just flat out refuse to answer.

The entire thread you posted has no evidence. Nothing. Just speculation, conjecture, opinions, and a twisted subjective truth. I feel like I'm on a carousel just going round and round and I will never get anywhere trying to pull evidence and further the discussion with you.

With best regards, I do thank you that you have spent time with me, though I do wish you would have provided some sort of evidence, there is no ill will on my end. Take care.

Wow. I think I addressed your post #63 assiduously. Let me try again.

 

[David1954]

To state an absolute fact, churches of Christ are not protestant churches. If you had studied this subject as you say you have, you would have known this fact. Churches of Christ belong in the "restoration" category. Protestants are in the "reformation".

Protestants are considered "reformation" because in one way or another, they keep a base model of what Catholics taught. Thus, as reformation's definition dictates, they merely just "improve" upon an already faulty belief. Sure they speak truth in some areas. However, they still teach falsely in other areas.



You are wrong about Acts 8.

Only two times in the NT did the Holy Spirit descend upon people in this fashion, Acts 2 and 10.

Problem with the people who say you are saved ONLY with this method, is they forget Cornelius and his household and friends STILL had to be baptized into water.

Everyone in Acts 8 was also baptized into water.

John 3:7 :

"Born of water" - It was Peter himself who said to Cornelius (Acts 10) "can anyone forbid them water.... and he commanded them to be baptized"

The Holy Spirit was to do this because the Jews believed they were the only ones who would be chosen (See Peter's explanation in Acts 11). God had shown the Jews right before their eyes that gentiles were also chosen.

Peter had also said "baptism now saves us" right after saying that through water Noah and family was saved.

Paul agrees with Peter when he told Titus, "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,". Peter basically said the same thing in Acts 2:38 "be baptized...and you receive the Holy Spirit".


"and born of the Holy Spirit" (jn 3:7) This is what happens when you obey that which was commanded of us to become Christians.

Hear
Believe
repent
confess
be baptized
[insert receiving of Holy Spirit here as in effect following baptism through our obedience]
remain faithful

Peter and Paul said this
Titus 3:5/Romans 6:3-5
Acts 2:38/1 Peter 3:20-21


Lastly, you are taking Acts 8:16 out of context.
(NKJV)
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Facts:
1-They sent Peter and John to Samaria

2- The Samarians had already received the word of God before Peter and John came (see previous verses)
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

These are undeniable facts that you cannot disagree with. Now to the supposed discrepancy.

Peter and John came to Samaria to lay hands on them and give them miraculous gifts. Not to save them since they already were saved (verses 12-14).

So what you are propositioning, is that Peter and John came to "lay hands on" and "save" the Samarians through human means of "laying of hands".

This cannot be true. No one is taught to go around everywhere laying hands on people to save them. That is false and has no scriptural support.

What I see here, is that Peter and John came to lay hands and pass on miraculous gifts to the Samarians, who were ALREADY in a saved state aka Christians.

If we are saved by the laying of hands, then we are ALL doomed because there are no apostles alive that can do this for us. No, they were baptized in water just like the Ethiopian in the later part of Acts 8, and saved before Peter and John was sent. They merely were to receive miraculous gifts is all, by the laying of hands.

"Now we see in a mirror dimly, but when the completeness has come, face to face."

 

[PloughBoy]

Friend, deflection noted. When someone cannot provide evidence to their stance and instead goes on the offensive to attack someone on a more person level and make presumptions about the person (which are far off the mark), and not meet the evidence they have provided and address it.

We could just thank each other for time spent and stop here. There will surely be other chances to trade intellectual knowledge with each other, God willing, another time.

Note: “I do favor the “Church of Christ” above all denominations, If you permit me to say so. LOL!

 

[David1954]

Nice, PloughBoy.

But the Church of Christ is extremely dishonest.

"Now we see in a mirror dimly, but when the completeness is come, face to face."

 

[David1954]

They single themselves out as not doing what every fake denomination has done for hundreds of years.

 

[David1954]

We have Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Church of Christ all being crazy.

 

[David1954]

Since I actually was baptized in the Spirit...

 

[David1954]

I have little patience for the fakers.

 

[PloughBoy]

Yes I do know what you mean.
If I really spoke about how I feel about all “institutionalize churches” on this post , I might get nail to a tree. So maybe a will take a quote from “Luther” “The Institutionalize church is “a great _____ but I love her, she is my mother, if it was not for her, I never, would have, met Jesus”.

 

[David1954]

Yes I do know what you mean.
If I really spoke about how I feel about all “institutionalize churches” on this post , I might get nail to a tree. So maybe a will take a quote from “Luther” “The Institutionalize church is “a great _____ but I love her, she is my mother, if it was not for her, I never, would have, met Jesus”. ❤

I was introduced to Jesus by some kids in the neighborhood recommending Jesus.

Have you been baptized in the Spirit?

 

[PloughBoy]

I was introduced to Jesus by some kids in the neighborhood recommending Jesus.

Have you been baptized in the Spirit?

1977 over 42 year ago “a “miraculous conversion“ anyone came around me became drunk in “the spirit”. And still Full of the Spirit. And that is all I m going to say about that. ( elementary stuff).