Predestined?

[Enxu]

I'm familiar with the book of Enoch. I don't think it's legit. I believe the sons of God are men. The book of Enoch was likely written a few hundred years before Christ. It's also possible that Jude is quoting from some other document and that the Book of Enoch also quotes from that document. We don't know.

Genesis 6 clearly said those sons of God are divine beings. The biblical definition of son of God is either angel or a human being born again in the Spirit. In the time of Genesis no human being is yet born again in the Spirit.

The book of Job chapter 1 mentioned the term “sons of God” who came to present themselves before God along with Satan and it referred solely to angels.

 

[Butch5]

Genesis 6 clearly said those sons of God are divine beings. The biblical definition of son of God is either angel or a human being born again in the Spirit. In the time of Genesis no human being is yet born again in the Spirit.

The book of Job chapter 1 mentioned the term “sons of God” who came to present themselves before God along with Satan and it referred solely to angels.

Where do you see that the Sons of God are divine beings in Gen 6?

I offer this for your consideration http://4windsfellowships.net/articles/Sons_of_God.pdf

 

[Curtis]

I used to believe similar to what you believe. It couldn't make sense out of what the Scriptures said because it seemed there always verses that didn't fit with what I believed

I am sorry, you have never believed what I believe or you would never say the things you do, and if you did believe how I believe you would have never asked me anything.

The scripture was not designed to be understood by the "natural" man.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You think the things of the Spirit are foolishness, and that is normal to the "natural" man. Scripture can only be understood to the spiritual man (also known as the heart, or as Paul said the hidden man of the heart) No amount logical analytical analyses will ever be able to extract spiritual understanding (Wisdom) except by the "anointing" which is Christ in man who is a life-giving "Spirit" that you do not believe!

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Enxu]

Where do you see that the Sons of God are divine beings in Gen 6?

I offer this for your consideration http://4windsfellowships.net/articles/Sons_of_God.pdf

Genesis 6:2 ISV some divine beings noticed how attractive human women were, so they took wives for themselves from a selection that pleased them.
Genesis 6:2 KJV That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4 ISV The Nephilim were on the earth at that time (and also immediately afterward), when those divine beings were having sexual relations with those human women, who gave birth to children for them. These children became the heroes and legendary figures of ancient times.

 

[Enxu]

Where do you see that the Sons of God are divine beings in Gen 6?

I offer this for your consideration http://4windsfellowships.net/articles/Sons_of_God.pdf

Besides, Genesis 6 is not the only place that talked about angels that sinned with mankind.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;

Who are the angels who sinned and kept in chains of darkness mentioned by apostle Peter? You will not find the answer in the current Bible we have, but you will find the answer in the Book of Enoch.

If you still believe that angelic beings cannot have sexual intercourse with human beings look at the account of Lot and his encounter with the two angels who appeared to him as men.

Genesis 19:5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Lot is confronted by a group of homosexual men who wanted to have sex with the angels that came to him!

It is so blatantly clear that angels can appear in the form of men and can indeed have sexual relations with human beings. Apparently the early church know this and are also well acquainted with the prophecy of Enoch mentioned by Jude in the book of Jude. The apostles and the first generation church know about what really happened in Genesis 6. Yet that truth is hidden from the modern Churches.

 

[Curtis]

Who are the angels who sinned and kept in chains of darkness mentioned by apostle Peter?

How many angels that followed "Lucifer" in his rebellion sinned?

 

[Butch5]

I am sorry, you have never believed what I believe or you would never say the things you do, and if you did believe how I believe you would have never asked me anything.

The scripture was not designed to be understood by the "natural" man.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You think the things of the Spirit are foolishness, and that is normal to the "natural" man. Scripture can only be understood to the spiritual man (also known as the heart, or as Paul said the hidden man of the heart) No amount logical analytical analyses will ever be able to extract spiritual understanding (Wisdom) except by the "anointing" which is Christ in man who is a life-giving "Spirit" that you do not believe!

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You don't know what I've believed. I used to make many of the same arguments you're making. However, upon deeper examination I found that they don't stand in the light of Scripture. Check the context of 1 Cor2:14. The natural man that Paul refers to is the Greek. When he says they receive it not, the grammar shows that they reject it. It's not that the can't, it's that they don't.

If the Scripture wasn't meant to be understood there'd be no reason for God to give it.

 

[Butch5]

Genesis 6:2 ISV some divine beings noticed how attractive human women were, so they took wives for themselves from a selection that pleased them.
Genesis 6:2 KJV That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4 ISV The Nephilim were on the earth at that time (and also immediately afterward), when those divine beings were having sexual relations with those human women, who gave birth to children for them. These children became the heroes and legendary figures of ancient times.

I don't know where they get divine beings except from maybe their bias. The word is Nephilim, it means giants. It's used elsewhere in Scripture.

And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. (Num. 13:33 ASV)

The son of Anak were Nephilim. They weren't angels they were men.

 

[Butch5]

Besides, Genesis 6 is not the only place that talked about angels that sinned with mankind.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;

Who are the angels who sinned and kept in chains of darkness mentioned by apostle Peter? You will not find the answer in the current Bible we have, but you will find the answer in the Book of Enoch.

If you still believe that angelic beings cannot have sexual intercourse with human beings look at the account of Lot and his encounter with the two angels who appeared to him as men.

Genesis 19:5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Lot is confronted by a group of homosexual men who wanted to have sex with the angels that came to him!

It is so blatantly clear that angels can appear in the form of men and can indeed have sexual relations with human beings. Apparently the early church know this and are also well acquainted with the prophecy of Enoch mentioned by Jude in the book of Jude. The apostles and the first generation church know about what really happened in Genesis 6. Yet that truth is hidden from the modern Churches.

It doesn't say anything in 2 Peter about angels having sex with people. The men thought that the angels were men. That doesn't necessitate that the angels were able to have sex. For me the jury is out on the book of Enoch. Even so, I surely wouldn't form doctrine on it.

 

[Sue D.]

That was point. So many things people can't explain. It's because they're not there.

This is a bit out of order in posting -- but just because a person can't explain a concept doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Gravity does certainly exist -- but lots of people can't explain how it works. And many people don't believe in God -- but that does not make Him non-existent.

 

[Enxu]

It doesn't say anything in 2 Peter about angels having sex with people. The men thought that the angels were men. That doesn't necessitate that the angels were able to have sex. For me the jury is out on the book of Enoch. Even so, I surely wouldn't form doctrine on it.

I specifically highlighted in 2 Peter that these angels were thrown into Tartarus and also chained in darkness. Nowhere in the Bible there was ever an account of angels being thrown into Tartarus and also chained in darkness or WHAT sin they committed to be in that situation.

Apparently Lot did not believe the same thing as you did. In fact, Lot in his moment of weakness offered his virgin daughters to those perverse men so that those angels would not be defiled. Why did Lot attempt to protect these angels by putting his daughters in danger if he knew they could not be sexually violated by those men? And why did these angels later struck the men of sodom with blindness so they could not even find the door to Lot’s house?

 

[Enxu]

I don't know where they get divine beings except from maybe their bias. The word is Nephilim, it means giants. It's used elsewhere in Scripture.

And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. (Num. 13:33 ASV)

The son of Anak were Nephilim. They weren't angels they were men.

Now you are denying what Genesis 6 is talking about. Not just one translation defined sons of God as being divine beings in Genesis.

Apparently the giants continued to reproduce and that is why in Numbers they are called descendants of those giants. Yet the account in Numbers does not deny or disprove the very origins of the giants: the offspring of fallen angels and human women. Genesis 6 is a much earlier account anyway of the origin of the Nephilims/giants.

There is indeed a prophecy of Enoch somewhere or Jude would not have mentioned it in Jude 1. Have you ever researched on what the prophecy is?

 

[Enxu]

I don't know where they get divine beings except from maybe their bias. The word is Nephilim, it means giants. It's used elsewhere in Scripture.

And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. (Num. 13:33 ASV)

The son of Anak were Nephilim. They weren't angels they were men.

Look again at Genesis 6:2

KJV That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Why use two different terms sons of God and daughters of men? Why make the distinction? If the sons of God refers to human men why not just use the term sons of men? The distinction there is not without reason!

In the Old Testament, sons of God is consistently used to refer to angels:

Job 1:6 KJV Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6 NIV One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

Job 38:7 KJV When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7 NIV while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

 

[Enxu]

It doesn't say anything in 2 Peter about angels having sex with people. The men thought that the angels were men. That doesn't necessitate that the angels were able to have sex. For me the jury is out on the book of Enoch. Even so, I surely wouldn't form doctrine on it.

Jude in Jude 1:6-7 talks about the same angels Peter talks about in 2 Peter 2:4

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Why did Jude immediately mention the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah (fornication and going after strange flesh) after he talked about angels chained in darkness by God? He was alluding to the fact that these angels chained in darkness sinned in the same way as Sodom and Gomorrah!

 

[Butch5]

This is a bit out of order in posting -- but just because a person can't explain a concept doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Gravity does certainly exist -- but lots of people can't explain how it works. And many people don't believe in God -- but that does not make Him non-existent.

No body can explain it.

 

[Butch5]

Jude in Jude 1:6-7 talks about the same angels Peter talks about in 2 Peter 2:4

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Why did Jude immediately mention the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah (fornication and going after strange flesh) after he talked about angels chained in darkness by God? He was alluding to the fact that these angels chained in darkness sinned in the same way as Sodom and Gomorrah!

He uses Sodom and Gomorah as example of the judgment. It seems to me that your doctrine is built on inferences and allusions. They're all things that can be wrong. I don't build doctrine on inferences and allusions. The Book of Enoch has some pretty wild claims in it also. Who wrote it? When was it written? It could be that Jude quoted it. But it's also possible that both the Book of Enoch and Jude are quoting some other document.

 

[Butch5]

Look again at Genesis 6:2

KJV That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Why use two different terms sons of God and daughters of men? Why make the distinction? If the sons of God refers to human men why not just use the term sons of men? The distinction there is not without reason!

In the Old Testament, sons of God is consistently used to refer to angels:

Job 1:6 KJV Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:6 NIV One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

Job 38:7 KJV When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7 NIV while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

Why use two different terms? Maybe the Sons of God are godly men and the daughters of men are worldly women.

Here's the passage.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Gen. 6:4 KJV)

From this we can see that the Nephilim were not the sons of God. They were giants that were in the world at the same time. So I don't know why some translations say fallen angels. In addition the passage says that the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men, were men. They were mighty men of old. It doesn't say they were dual natured beings. It says they were men. I just don't really see any sound evidence.

 

[Enxu]

He uses Sodom and Gomorah as example of the judgment. It seems to me that your doctrine is built on inferences and allusions. They're all things that can be wrong. I don't build doctrine on inferences and allusions. The Book of Enoch has some pretty wild claims in it also. Who wrote it? When was it written? It could be that Jude quoted it. But it's also possible that both the Book of Enoch and Jude are quoting some other document.

That’s not inference. You are not reading the text as it is.

Jude 1:6-7 KJV
the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh

Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner committed sin but in like manner with who? With the angels mentioned in v6. Jude is comparing what Sodom and Gomorrah did to what the angels did: which in this case is fornication and going after strange flesh. I don’t see why you can’t see the link.

 

[Enxu]

Why use two different terms? Maybe the Sons of God are godly men and the daughters of men are worldly women.

Here's the passage.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Gen. 6:4 KJV)

From this we can see that the Nephilim were not the sons of God. They were giants that were in the world at the same time. So I don't know why some translations say fallen angels. In addition the passage says that the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men, were men. They were mighty men of old. It doesn't say they were dual natured beings. It says they were men. I just don't really see any sound evidence.

Your explanation of why two different terms are used is in fact inference. Like I showed in the book of Job as well as Genesis, the term “sons of God” refers to angels. Translations support this as well. I don’t know why you are in denial.

I never said the Nephilim were sons of God. They were the offspring of sons of God (angels) and human women. As to what their nature is, I can safely say they are half spirit and half flesh hybrids. Why? Jesus said what is born of spirit is spirit and what is born of flesh is flesh. Since they are the offspring of both spirit beings and flesh joined together, their nature logically will be spirit-flesh dual natured hybrid.

 

[Butch5]

That’s not inference. You are not reading the text as it is.

Jude 1:6-7 KJV
the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh

The cities about them in like manner committed sin but in like manner with who? With the angels mentioned in v6. Jude is comparing what Sodom and Gomorrah did to what the angels did: which in this case is fornication and going after strange flesh. I don’t see why you can’t see the link.

He's making a comparison. "Even as" indicates a comparison. The angels are held until judgement even as Sodom and Gmorrah and the cities around them who did the same things were judged. His point is that the angels will be judged.