What to expect in Hell

[Butch5]

Well -- we Do have John 14:1-6 -- Jesus Christ is in heaven preparing a place for us.

This passage doesn't say anything about them going. As a matter of fact a few verses earlier Jesus had said that they couldn't go where He was going. Notice also the end of verse 3. Jesus said that He would come back so that they could be with Him. They weren't going to Him, He was coming back to them.

[qupte]2 Corinthians 5:8 -- going back to the beginning of the chapter -- He's talking about our body / our earthly tent/ -- as something Does happen to that / our body/ we Do have a building from God. (a glorified body) eternal in the heavens.

We'd much rather be in our heavenly home / body/ -- we have a desire for clothes here in this world. We don't want to be found naked. Either physically or spiritually. 'dressed' in Jesus Christ. Then going to vs 8 so we'd rather be absent from This body and be present with the Lord. So in the here and now -- we want to be living in a way that is pleasing to God Because at some point we Will be standing before God giving an account for our lives.

so - the question Would be -- What will we be Doing With Jesus Christ upon our death Or being taken up in the rapture. We will be receiving our new glorified bodies.

That's why born-again believers who have loved ones die from a diseased or broken body say that they are Now enjoying a healed body.

"We" Do have information 'by inference' in God's Word. You've noticed that God doesn't always state things the way we want to hear them.

BTW -- it's Only born-again people that Do go to heaven when they die.
[/QUOTE]

Remember, at the end of his first letter to them some were rejecting the Resurrection. The Greek hope was to leave the body, which they considered a prison of the soul, and ascend into the heavens. The Christians hope is not to escape the body, but rather the resurrection of the body. In 2 Cor, 5 Paul isn't talking about the Greek hope of putting off the body. He's talking about two states of being. One is corruptible and the other is incorruptible. Putting off the earthly tent isn't putting off the body, it's putting off the corruptible state. That happens at the resurrection. Notice his words,

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (2 Cor. 5:2 KJV)

Notice he says we earnestly desire to be clothed upon. The Greek word that is translated "clothed upon" means to put on over, like one puts on a coat over their clothes. So, he's not talking about putting off the body and putting on something else. He's talking about putting something on over his current state. He wants to be overclothed with the house from Heaven. He doesn't want to be found naked. We know this is what he's talking about because he tells us in verse 4. He said they were burdened, not that they would be unclothed, but overclothed. He wasn't looking to put off his physical body like the Greeks. He wanted his corruptible state swallowed up by his incorruptible state. We see this in his words,

not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor. 5:4 KJV)

The two states are corruptible and incorruptible. mortality and life, the resurrection. This is the context of the entire passage. So when Paul talks about being absent from the body and present with the Lord, he's talking about the Resurrection.

Also when he talks about being absent from the body, it's not his physical body, it' the body of Christ. In verse 6 Paul writes,

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Cor. 5:6 KJV)

In the phrase, "at home in the body" the Greek word translated "home" means to be among one's people. Who were Paul's people? The body of Christ. He was at home in the body of Christ. Also, in that verse the Greek word translated "absent" means to go abroad. Also, in verse 8 Paul is expressing a desire.

All of this is in the context of the resurrection. He doesn't even use the words spirit or soul here. He's not talking about some disembodied state. We've already established that that is not possible.


You said, ""We" Do have information 'by inference' in God's Word. You've noticed that God doesn't always state things the way we want to hear them. "

Or maybe people don't want to understand things the way God states them. If we can find a single passage of Scripture that supports a doctrine, maybe we should be questioning that doctrine.

 

[Dave M]

What's really amazing about this idea that people go to Heaven when they die is that its believed by so many and yet there isn't a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven

the bible says Paul Went to heaven .....making your statement a false one.

 

[Butch5]

the bible says Paul Went to heaven .....making your statement a false one.

Actually, it doesn't. If you look closely at what I said, you'll see that I said people going to Heaven when they die. Paul was very much alive. Also, He didn't know if it was a vision or not.

 

[Dave M]

Actually, it doesn't. If you look closely at what I said, you'll see that I said people going to Heaven when they die. Paul was very much alive. Also, He didn't know if it was a vision or not.

the bible talks about people in heaven just look at the book of revelations people dying coming out of the tribulation standing before the throne of God. The word of God speaks for it self, it is not my job to make you understand what the truth is, only the Holly Spirit can do that, but the truth is here in Gods word. blessings and peace be with you

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,


Revelation 4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

Praise from the Great Multitude
Revelation 7:9-15
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God,
12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Butch5]

the bible talks about people in heaven just look at the book of revelations people dying coming out of the tribulation standing before the throne of God. The word of God speaks for it self, it is not my job to make you understand what the truth is, only the Holly Spirit can do that, but the truth is here in Gods word. blessings and peace be with you

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,


Revelation 4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

Praise from the Great Multitude
Revelation 7:9-15
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God,
12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

John is seeing Heaven and Earth in a vision of the future in a book full of symbolism. I think you'll need to give at lest some explanation of what you've posted. I have a question for you. Where does it say these are dead? Where does it say these died and went to Heaven? It seems to me that these are all alive. Again it's a vision.

Instead of trying to prove me wrong, why not engage the idea and see if maybe there's something to it?

 

[KingJ]

Instead of trying to prove me wrong, why not engage the idea and see if maybe there's something to it?

It is just terribly illogical. As to is your belief of ''Accept me or literally die''.

God laid His life down for us John 3:16. We will reign with Christ Rev 20:4-6. Now you come along with ''saints will not be allowed in heaven''. Or ''saints do not go to heaven when they die''.

I feel you should meditate on the fact that God gave His life for us. Showed the greatest act of love possible John 15:13.

 

[Dave M]

John is seeing Heaven and Earth in a vision of the future in a book full of symbolism. I think you'll need to give at lest some explanation of what you've posted. I have a question for you. Where does it say these are dead? Where does it say these died and went to Heaven? It seems to me that these are all alive. Again it's a vision.

Instead of trying to prove me wrong, why not engage the idea and see if maybe there's something to it?

dear man it is not I that can open your eyes, only the holly spirit can make you understand what is written. Every bible scholar in the world would agree with what has been said here, this is not complicated. Yet you seem not to see it. I can respect the fact you don't agree, but no sense in discussing any further. Peace be with you and me

 

[Dave M]

Where does it say these are dead

it says they came out of the tribulation, in reading in full context we know they are the saints that have been killed in the great tribulation.

Where does it say these died and went to Heaven

well we know the throne is where they are at, and we all know that the throne room is in heaven

blessings to you, and I hope I have not come across rude, I sometimes get caught up in the moment if people dont agree with me, thanks for the questions hope I made myself clearer

 

[Butch5]

It is just terribly illogical. As to is your belief of ''Accept me or literally die''.

God laid His life down for us John 3:16. We will reign with Christ Rev 20:4-6. Now you come along with ''saints will not be allowed in heaven''. Or ''saints do not go to heaven when they die''.

I feel you should meditate on the fact that God gave His life for us. Showed the greatest act of love possible John 15:13.

Sorry I fail to see how this relates to what I said.

 

[Butch5]

dear man it is not I that can open your eyes, only the holly spirit can make you understand what is written. Every bible scholar in the world would agree with what has been said here, this is not complicated. Yet you seem not to see it. I can respect the fact you don't agree, but no sense in discussing any further. Peace be with you and me

Have you considered that maybe it's your eyes that need to be opened? Everything I've posted is straight out of Scripture. No inferences, no assumptions straight out of Scripture. The idea that people go to Heaven when they die, is not in the Scriptures. It's by way of inference. Maybe you should open you eyes?

 

[Butch5]

it says they came out of the tribulation, in reading in full context we know they are the saints that have been killed in the great tribulation.

You might want to read that again. They're not dead.

well we know the throne is where they are at, and we all know that the throne room is in heaven

blessings to you, and I hope I have not come across rude, I sometimes get caught up in the moment if people dont agree with me, thanks for the questions hope I made myself clearer

Do we know that? Look at the context.

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir1, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters1. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:13-17 NKJ)

The passage says they are the ones who came out of the Great Tribulation. We know that the Tribulation will be on Earth. Note the part I bolded, "He who sits on the throne will dwell with them". Where will He dwell with them? We're told in this same book.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Rev. 21:1-3 KJV)

Notice it says that New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven and God dwells with men. This takes place on the Earth, not in Heaven.

Even if we concede that this was talking about people in Heaven, it still wouldn't support your claim. First;y, John is seeing a vision of the future. It's the future. It says nothing about the state of things today.

 

[Dave M]

Have you considered that maybe it's your eyes that need to be opened?

I have and always do, so I suggest that you at least do some real research,and search out out good sound biblical scholars that live what they preach and have the credentials to back it up, and see what they say on subjects that seem to be controversial. There are no respectful biblical scholars that teach what you are promoting

John Mcarthur would be a great place for you to start, or Randy Alcorn

Peace

 

[Butch5]

I have and always do, so I suggest that you at least do some real research,and search out out good sound biblical scholars that live what they preach and have the credentials to back it up, and see what they say on subjects that seem to be controversial. There are no respectful biblical scholars that teach what you are promoting

John Mcarthur would be a great place for you to start, or Randy Alcorn

Peace

And I guess the only respectable ones would those who teach what you believe, correct? It's funny that you talk about doing research. Just a little on your part would show you that what I've said is correct. Instead of looking to the "scholars" look to the Scriptures. Look for a passage of Scripture that says the dead go to Heaven when they die. You said there are no respectful Scholars that teach what I'm promoting. Would you consider the Apostle Paul a respectful Scholar? He said,

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

Here Paul is writing about Christians who have died. What does he say? If there is no resurrection those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they died and went on to be with Jesus . He didn't say they died and went to be with God. He didn't say they died and went to Heaven. He said, if there is no resurrection they'd perished. The only hope he gives for these dead Christians is the Resurrection. So, it seems there is one Scholar who teaches what I'm promoting.

Since you've mentioned research, let me ask you what Hermeneutical Methodology you use to research the Scriptures.

 

[Dave M]

hey Butch have a good night, I can respect the fact we disagree. NO biggie

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5

Greetings,

May i suggest that you do a little research on how to communicate?
You have some valid points and you are able to present some of them intelligently but you tend to lose it when sharing with others who do not see what you see.

It matters little what sort of research one does if it leaves them somewhat proud and arrogant towards others who have not conducted the same level of research and this i think you surely know.

I have not been keeping up with this thread, so perhaps you can take me on and fill me in a bit with a brief summary of what you are presenting to members here?

There is a lot of regurgitation around the world including the wide web of things that tend to get repeated without any real consideration of the validity of what is actually being said (or, written). There are many who do not realize that they also regurgitate what they have heard enough times. How should a Christian share any other line of thought or what they consider to be truth?
At the same time, many there be who get so caught up in their own little study and swiftly begin regurgitating what they have discovered in their own little minds.

I have done both, so i write this knowing full well how easy it is to do these things.

One thing i have learnt, which i would like to share with you, is that we do have an Author and Finisher of our faith, Who will do according to His will concerning His sheep and that, believe it or not, His grace is sufficient to the me's in us all, according to His riches, not ours.

I also know after years here, that we can at times forget our manners and we can find ourselves so embroiled in a topic, that we want to present, that we forget that the Lord demands us to love one another and to do so His style, not the worlds, so if we find we are being somewhat worldly in our approach, either by some enlightenment of 'our own' or by some kind soul pointing it out to us, we do well to sit back, consider our ways and remember that we all must help one another if we would seek the Lord prayerfully and post accordingly.

Please refrain form pointing specks out in my brother's eyes. Some day the Lord will require an account of us all and as love is a principal part of His concern, we do well to remember that there will be goats and the like who the Lord tells clearly, "I don't know you" and i am not convinced it will be on the basic of any study one does.

Having written that, please oblige me and share with me some of your thesis on this subject. I am interested and am quite happy to interact on this thread with you.

May you know the Lord's direction in all you write and how you go about it.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Greetings,

May i suggest that you do a little research on how to communicate?
You have some valid points and you are able to present some of them intelligently but you tend to lose it when sharing with others who do not see what you see.

It matters little what sort of research one does if it leaves them somewhat proud and arrogant towards others who have not conducted the same level of research and this i think you surely know.

I have not been keeping up with this thread, so perhaps you can take me on and fill me in a bit with a brief summary of what you are presenting to members here?

There is a lot of regurgitation around the world including the wide web of things that tend to get repeated without any real consideration of the validity of what is actually being said (or, written). There are many who do not realize that they also regurgitate what they have heard enough times. How should a Christian share any other line of thought or what they consider to be truth?
At the same time, many there be who get so caught up in their own little study and swiftly begin regurgitating what they have discovered in their own little minds.

I have done both, so i write this knowing full well how easy it is to do these things.

One thing i have learnt, which i would like to share with you, is that we do have an Author and Finisher of our faith, Who will do according to His will concerning His sheep and that, believe it or not, His grace is sufficient to the me's in us all, according to His riches, not ours.

I also know after years here, that we can at times forget our manners and we can find ourselves so embroiled in a topic, that we want to present, that we forget that the Lord demands us to love one another and to do so His style, not the worlds, so if we find we are being somewhat worldly in our approach, either by some enlightenment of 'our own' or by some kind soul pointing it out to us, we do well to sit back, consider our ways and remember that we all must help one another if we would seek the Lord prayerfully and post accordingly.

Please refrain form pointing specks out in my brother's eyes. Some day the Lord will require an account of us all and as love is a principal part of His concern, we do well to remember that there will be goats and the like who the Lord tells clearly, "I don't know you" and i am not convinced it will be on the basic of any study one does.

Having written that, please oblige me and share with me some of your thesis on this subject. I am interested and am quite happy to interact on this thread with you.

May you know the Lord's direction in all you write and how you go about it.


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br Bear,

I wasn't aware that I was being rude or offending anyone. I believe I know how to communicate. I simply communicated with others as they communicated with me. My statement that you quoted was me simply redirecting back to the poster what was posted to me. Before I made that post it was suggested to me that maybe I should do some real research and search out some real Biblical scholars. The implication there is that since I don't agree with said scholars my research isn't real so it should be rejected. I simply redirected the comment back to the poster. It's also been said that no one with a working brain would believe what I'm "promoting". What's the implication there? I think it's that I don't have a working brain. Did O reply in kind? No, Even in your post above you said I have some valid points and am able to present some of them intelligently. Does that imply that I present the others unintelligently? I haven't complained about anything anyone has said, I simply engaged them as they engaged me. Actually, I think I've done better in many cases.

I realize that not everyone is at the same level of study and have pointed things to help others. I've talked about presuppositions and how we should try to set them aside, I've talked about translator bias and how we have to be careful of it. I've talked about reading and interpreting the Scriptures in context and to not just randomly pull them from context. I think the implication that I'm proud and arrogant is unwarranted. If you read through my posts you'll see the extent I've gone to to explain things to people. If I was arrogant I wouldn't have done so.

I'm not sure how you see me pointing out the speck in others eyes when I'm simply pointing out what the Scriptures says. You acknowledged in this post that things get regurgitated and sometimes the people doing so don't even realize they are doing so. I'm just trying help people no longer do so.

Concerning the thread, it's about what to expect in hell. I submitted that there is nothing to expect because the dead are dead. After a few rabbit trails the idea of people going to Heaven when they die arose and I simply said they don't. Those two subjects have been the majority of the debate.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

this thread is closed now.
thank you everyone for your participation.

If anyone would like to start a new thread or two to look at some of the things discussed in this thread, please do.

God's mercy and grace to you all, in Jesus name


Bless you ....><>

Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

Greetings all, there has been discussion on other threads regarding hell and if people go to hell or not. It has been raised that the Bible does not say that people will go to hell, which flies in the face of what most people think. The purpose of this thread is to look at what the Scripture...

www.talkjesus.com