The Bible teaches Hell is a place of eternal punishment, not annihilation.

[gaviria.christian]

And how about posting it for me?

I already did. Read the scriptures I quoted. Those are my proof in the pudding that predestination is indeed taught by the scriptures.

 

[gaviria.christian]

I didn't reject anything you posted. I simply asked you to pick one and explain it in context. You refused. I suspect the reason you refused is because you haven't actually done that. If you had you'd know that they don't teach that.

For someone who preaches the Gospel you sure seem to think the worst of people. You were questioning my intelligence for simply asking a question. Well, I can assure that my intelligence is not something you need to question. Now, for the others who are reading this thread I'll go back and show how, in context, none of the passages you presented teaches that God choose who gets saved.

I am the author of a website explaining some of the most difficult aspects of scriptures baffling not only many theologians, but also many scholars in academia. Certainly I have the capability to explain myself, if I really wanted to. I just don't want to, because I know I'm wasting my time with you. And my time is also valuable to me. And I am here not to waste time, but to scatter seeds of truth throughout the internet for the benefit of a few who just might listen. So let's move on to another subject. Have you read my post regarding fiat currency. Thoughts?

 

[A. Christian]

I dont think that I can take you seriously anymore.

 

[gaviria.christian]

I dont think that I can take you seriously anymore.

You never did the moment I threw out your fantasies regarding eternal torment. The only people you take seriously are the people that agree with the nonsense you believe in. Fine, go buy one of their books. I offer knowledge and understanding of the scriptures for free, but indeed my pearls are occasionally wasted and trampled by dogs.

 

[A. Christian]

You never did the moment I threw out your fantasies regarding eternal torment. The only people you take seriously are the people that agree with the nonsense you believe in. Fine, go buy one of their books. I offer knowledge and understanding of the scriptures for free, but indeed my pearls are occasionally wasted and trampled by dogs.

If you were to look at any of my previous posts you would see that I do respect those who disagree with me and I take their comments seriously. However, you are so herectical and prideful that I cannot imagine that you are not joking.

 

[gaviria.christian]

If you were to look at any of my previous posts you would see that I do respect those who disagree with me and I take their comments seriously. However, you are so herectical and prideful that I cannot imagine that you are not joking.

Indeed I am very prideful, because my pride is based on my knowledge and understanding of the truth, hence, "let him who boasts boast that he knows and understands me". We are called to boast about our knowledge and understanding of God, because that is true wealth. But you on the other hand. You are impoverished in the understanding of God, that is why you cannot and are unable to believe plain scripture that teach predestination, because your own lack of understanding and deception prevents you from coming to a basic understanding of the authority and power of God over his own creation. In layman's terms, you are blind.

 

[A. Christian]

Ok

 

[Butch5]

For those who are following along, I'm going to give a brief explanation of each of these passages and show that the context indicates other than the idea that God chooses who to saved. If you have any further questions I'll be glad to elaborate on any particular passage.

And those he predestined

, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:30

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Romans 8:29

These two passages are in a section of Romans where Paul is addressing the Jewish believers in the church at Rome. After addressing the church at large Paul turns his attention to the Jews. In chapter 2 he says,

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

Paul continues this discourse to the Jewish believers until chapter 11 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (Rom. 11:13-14 KJV)

In the whole section between these two chapters Paul is addressing the Jewish believers. In the two passages in question Paul is speaking of people that God had known in the past. The word that's translated foreknow, literally mean to know before. So, Paul is saying that God worked all things together for good to those who love Him. Those He knew before are men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. If there's any question about who these people are that God foreknew, Paul answers it. In chapter 11 he says,

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,1 (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)

So, Paul tells us who those who God foreknew are, they're the Israelites.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Master, and as many as were appointed to aeonial life believed.
Acts 13:48

In this passage the Reformers changed the word order. A literal reading is found in Young's Translation.

And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;
(Acts 13:48 YLT)

This follows that Greek text. Notice that believes is prior to appointed. So, it appears this may be either way. But, no worries, we can see from verse 46 what Paul intended.

YLT Acts 13:46 And speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, 'To you it was necessary that first the word of God be spoken, and seeing ye do thrust it away, and do not judge yourselves worthy of the life age-during, lo, we do turn to the nations; (Acts 13:46 YLT)

Notice here in this passage Paul says that the Jews judged themselves unworthy of age during life. He didn't say it was God, he said it was them. If the Jews get to determine whether or not they get age during life, then it's the same is true for the Gentiles. Unless one is going to argue that the Jews get to choose and the Gentiles don't, it seems clear that Paul means as many as believed were appointed to age during life.

You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed

Psalm 139:16]

The most one can drawn from this is that David was chosen. This says nothing about anyone else. Also David could be using hyperbole here also.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them

, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44

When Jesus was on earth His ministry was to the Jews. He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So, at most one can only apply this to the Jews. However, after this Jesus said that if He was lifted up He would draw all men unto Him. So we see that that drawing of the Father was only a temporary state. It was to gather the apostles. Also. Jesus isn't on earth now some no one can come to Him.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. (Jn. 12:32 ASV)

for it is God who works in you to will and to act

in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Philippians 2:13

This was spoken to a church and there's nothing here about salvation

…he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Romans 9:18

This passage is in that section of Romans that I spoke of at the top that was addressed to the Jewish believers. Romans Chapter 9 is about the Jews. Paul is describing how the promises that God made to Abraham haven't failed. Here is my commentary on Romans 9

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Romans 2:4

There's nothing here that indicates that God choose who will be saved.

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that he may show mercy to all.

Romans 11:32

This passage is also speaking of the Jews. Paul is explaining to the Gentiles how God has partly blinded Israel so that through their blindness the Gentiles can be brought in.

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers beloved by the Master, that God has chosen you from the beginning unto salvation in the set-apartness of the airflow, and by belief of the truth;
2 Thessalonians 2:13

He Paul says that God chose them from the beginning. However, he doesn't say the beginning of what. It's very possible that Paul is referring to the beginning of their faith. We're not told exactly what the beginning is. However, the Calvinist's claim is that they were chosen before the foundation of the world. That would be before, "in the beginning" So, even if Paul mean the beginning of creation, it still wouldn't fit the Calvinist's model. However, as I said, we're not told what he means by the beginning. He's writing to a church. He could just as easily be referring the beginning of that church.

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set-apart and blameless before him. In love
Ephesians 1:4

In this passage Paul is referring what God has done for the Jewish people. Verses 3-12 are what is known as a Hebraism. It's a Hebrew praise extolling God. I have a commentary on this passage on my website, Ephesians 1

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or evil, in order that the purpose of God of election might stand, not because of works but because of him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9:11-13

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Romans 9:17

This again is part of the section I mentioned at the top of this page. This is where Paul is addressing the Jewish believers in the church at Roman. As I said, Romans 9 is a section where Paul is explaining how God's promises to Abraham haven't failed. Here again is the commentary on Romans 9.

 

[Butch5]

Indeed I am very prideful, because my pride is based on my knowledge and understanding of the truth, hence, "let him who boasts boast that he knows and understands me". We are called to boast about our knowledge and understanding of God, because that is true wealth. But you on the other hand. You are impoverished in the understanding of God, that is why you cannot and are unable to believe plain scripture that teach predestination, because your own lack of understanding and deception prevents you from coming to a basic understanding of the authority and power of God over his own creation. In layman's terms, you are blind.

Yeah, well the Scriptures don't teach your doctrine of Predestination. You might want to remember another passage too. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

 

[gaviria.christian]

For those who are following along, I'm going to give a brief explanation of each of these passages and show that the context indicates other than the idea that God chooses who to saved. If you have any further questions I'll be glad to elaborate on any particular passage.



These two passages are in a section of Romans where Paul is addressing the Jewish believers in the church at Rome. After addressing the church at large Paul turns his attention to the Jews. In chapter 2 he says,

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

Paul continues this discourse to the Jewish believers until chapter 11 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (Rom. 11:13-14 KJV)

In the whole section between these two chapters Paul is addressing the Jewish believers. In the two passages in question Paul is speaking of people that God had known in the past. The word that's translated foreknow, literally mean to know before. So, Paul is saying that God worked all things together for good to those who love Him. Those He knew before are men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. If there's any question about who these people are that God foreknew, Paul answers it. In chapter 11 he says,

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,1 (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)

So, Paul tells us who those who God foreknew are, they're the Israelites.





In this passage the Reformers changed the word order. A literal reading is found in Young's Translation.

And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;
(Acts 13:48 YLT)

This follows that Greek text. Notice that believes is prior to appointed. So, it appears this may be either way. But, no worries, we can see from verse 46 what Paul intended.

YLT Acts 13:46 And speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, 'To you it was necessary that first the word of God be spoken, and seeing ye do thrust it away, and do not judge yourselves worthy of the life age-during, lo, we do turn to the nations; (Acts 13:46 YLT)

Notice here in this passage Paul says that the Jews judged themselves unworthy of age during life. He didn't say it was God, he said it was them. If the Jews get to determine whether or not they get age during life, then it's the same is true for the Gentiles. Unless one is going to argue that the Jews get to choose and the Gentiles don't, it seems clear that Paul means as many as believed were appointed to age during life.




The most one can drawn from this is that David was chosen. This says nothing about anyone else. Also David could be using hyperbole here also.



When Jesus was on earth His ministry was to the Jews. He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So, at most one can only apply this to the Jews. However, after this Jesus said that if He was lifted up He would draw all men unto Him. So we see that that drawing of the Father was only a temporary state. It was to gather the apostles. Also. Jesus isn't on earth now some no one can come to Him.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. (Jn. 12:32 ASV)




This was spoken to a church and there's nothing here about salvation



This passage is in that section of Romans that I spoke of at the top that was addressed to the Jewish believers. Romans Chapter 9 is about the Jews. Paul is describing how the promises that God made to Abraham haven't failed. Here is my commentary on Romans 9



There's nothing here that indicates that God choose who will be saved.



This passage is also speaking of the Jews. Paul is explaining to the Gentiles how God has partly blinded Israel so that through their blindness the Gentiles can be brought in.



He Paul says that God chose them from the beginning. However, he doesn't say the beginning of what. It's very possible that Paul is referring to the beginning of their faith. We're not told exactly what the beginning is. However, the Calvinist's claim is that they were chosen before the foundation of the world. That would be before, "in the beginning" So, even if Paul mean the beginning of creation, it still wouldn't fit the Calvinist's model. However, as I said, we're not told what he means by the beginning. He's writing to a church. He could just as easily be referring the beginning of that church.



In this passage Paul is referring what God has done for the Jewish people. Verses 3-12 are what is known as a Hebraism. It's a Hebrew praise extolling God. I have a commentary on this passage on my website, Ephesians 1



This again is part of the section I mentioned at the top of this page. This is where Paul is addressing the Jewish believers in the church at Roman. As I said, Romans 9 is a section where Paul is explaining how God's promises to Abraham haven't failed. Here again is the commentary on Romans 9.

This is you,

And count the patience of our Master as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of torahless people and lose your own firmness.
2 Peter 3:15-17

 

[gaviria.christian]

Yeah, well the Scriptures don't teach your doctrine of Predestination. You might want to remember another passage too. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

They do. You twisted all those scriptures I quoted, and trampled the truth, to push your lie. This is you,

And count the patience of our Master as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of torahless people and lose your own firmness.
2 Peter 3:15-17

It's incredible to see how truly blind the blind are.

 

[Butch5]

And how about posting it for me?

My guess is that he doesn't have a clue and doesn't have time to waste.

 

[Butch5]

I already did. Read the scriptures I quoted. Those are my proof in the pudding that predestination is indeed taught by the scriptures.

Predestination is taught in the Scriptures. It's just not your doctrine of Predestination. It's not about God choosing who is saved. It's about God choosing Israel.

 

[Butch5]

They do. You twisted all those scriptures I quoted, and trampled the truth, to push your lie. This is you,

And count the patience of our Master as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of torahless people and lose your own firmness.
2 Peter 3:15-17

It's incredible to see how truly blind the blind are.

No, my friend, that is what you have done. I simply took all of the passages that you posted and put them back into the context that you ripped them from. Not only that, but I also offered to expound further if anyone has questions. You won't even explain one passage in context.

 

[A. Christian]

I'm out. Good luck to you butch5. While I do not believe in the annihilation part, I am with you on the other stuff that you've said in this thread.

 

[gaviria.christian]

No, my friend, that is what you have done. I simply took all of the passages that you posted and put them back into the context that you ripped them from. Not only that, but I also offered to expound further if anyone has questions. You won't even explain one passage in context.

Well that's the beauty of the scriptures. I don't need to explain them, they speak for themselves. You on the other hand, have to shimmy through and twist away to discard what the scriptures plainly teach. Here let me quote them again,

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:30

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Romans 8:29

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Master, and as many as were appointed to aeonial life believed.
Acts 13:48

You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.
Psalm 139:16

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Philippians 2:13

…he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Romans 9:18

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Romans 2:4

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that he may show mercy to all.
Romans 11:32

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers beloved by the Master, that God has chosen you from the beginning unto salvation in the set-apartness of the airflow, and by belief of the truth;
2 Thessalonians 2:13

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set-apart and blameless before him. In love
Ephesians 1:4

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or evil, in order that the purpose of God of election might stand, not because of works but because of him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Romans 9:11-13

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Romans 9:17


Looks pretty plain to me. God predestines. Hallelujah that everything is under the control of God. And he is rightly to be feared!

 

[Butch5]

I'm out. Good luck to you butch5. While I do not believe in the annihilation part, I am with you on the other stuff that you've said in this thread.

Thanks! I've debate Calvinists for over 10 years. I know all the passages they use and they take them out of context!

 

[Butch5]

Well that's the beauty of the scriptures. I don't need to explain them, they speak for themselves. You on the other hand, have to shimmy through and twist away to discard what the scriptures plainly teach. Here let me quote them again,

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:30

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Romans 8:29

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Master, and as many as were appointed to aeonial life believed.
Acts 13:48

You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.
Psalm 139:16

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Philippians 2:13

…he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Romans 9:18

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Romans 2:4

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that he may show mercy to all.
Romans 11:32

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers beloved by the Master, that God has chosen you from the beginning unto salvation in the set-apartness of the airflow, and by belief of the truth;
2 Thessalonians 2:13

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set-apart and blameless before him. In love
Ephesians 1:4

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or evil, in order that the purpose of God of election might stand, not because of works but because of him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Romans 9:11-13

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Romans 9:17


Looks pretty plain to me. God predestines. Hallelujah that everything is under the control of God. And he is rightly to be feared!

Right, rip them from their context. But, that's all you have. You can't them in context or your doctrine will collapse. The whole Calvinist system is built on proof texts and if you put them in context the theology collapses

 

[A. Christian]

Thanks! I've debate Calvinists for over 10 years. I know all the passages they use and they take them out of context!

I have met Calvinists that were no where close to this. This is like hypercalvinism.

 

[gaviria.christian]

Right, rip them from their context. But, that's all you have. You can't them in context or your doctrine will collapse. The whole Calvinist system is built on proof texts and if you put them in context the theology collapses

Twisting scripture is not "context", it is twisting scripture. And that is what you have done. These scriptures speak for themselves, it's just that you don't want to believe them, so you find ways to twist these scriptures, and call it "context", when it really isn't, just your own nonsense to discard the plain truth expressed in these verses. God exerts great authority over his creation, and not even one leaf falls anywhere on the earth without him appointing it to be so. Unless you understand the magnitude of the power of God, and his authority and power to choose, you will never understand anything else. You will always err.